All B/R update speculation.

[Dice_Box]

This seems to be hinting at "Miracles pushed aggro out of the format"

It's not. It's just a response to the argument that taking Miracles down a peg would kill an archetype. Because we have lost archetypes before. So in my view the argument that "If we punish Miracles for being a dominating deck for years we will lose the the true control deck of the format" is hollow.

My argument is This:

1. Less that 1/6 of the meta is Miracles, and that is the format's only hard control deck.
2. Forcing control out to make space for a wider variety of midrange (an archetype not currently lacking representation) will be a net loss of diversity (by measure of viable play-styles).

1. That 1/6th of the field punches well above its weight, which is a proven fact, so amount played ≠ the amount of issues it caused.

2. Banning a card because it's deck is dominate will have knock on effects sure, but when the reason for the action is just, you take it anyway.

If my dad robs you and gets locked up, that will have effects on my family. But that doesn't mean he shouldn't be punished for his actions. Same argument here.

[H]

Miracles has as much a "Right" to exist as Zoo does. You know some of us want a genuine Aggro deck, sadly that's not an option any more.

I think that Miracles is still a very strong deck if counterbalance is removed. The deck would adapt, but I've lost plenty of games to miracles where they never even resolved a counterbalance. It's the real problem card here, as much terminus is strong...you can still recover. Counterbalance eliminates most potential to have a second chance.

Right, which is exactly why Counterbalance should go.

1. Doesn't invalidate the Miracles archetype.
2. Opens up more diverse ways of combating (arguably) the top deck in the format.
3. Touches basically no other deck.

Terminus is a stupidly good card because of Brainstorm and Top, but it is far more fightable than Counterbalance. I think Terminus is a fine Legacy card. Powerful, very much so, but not format warping. Unfortunately, Counterbalance is format warping, as my theory is that is part of why there is so much BG/X around.

[Julian23]

Plus, with Miracles gone, aggro will still need to keep up with Eldrazi and Reanimator and SnS and we all know that's not going to happen (don't forget that GBrand was introduced with AVR as well).

Which is still much easier to do than to fight Miracles. The problem with Miracles is how it's too slippery and powerful to properly address. Unlike the decks you mention.

[Surfinbird]

At what time (Europe) is the announcement?

[Dice_Box]

At what time (Europe) is the announcement?

3 hours, 10 minutes.

[Crimhead]

1. That 1/6th of the field punches well above its weight, which is a proven fact, so amount played ≠ the amount of issues it caused.

If you have evidence presented that Miracles top8s above it representation, please present.

Meanwhile 15% is not overwhelming and the format is diverse.

If my dad robs you and gets locked up, that will have effects on my family. But that doesn't mean he shouldn't be punished for his actions. Same argument here.

Not the same at all. The banned list exists to ensure format diversity. Any ban should have a net positive here.

Law and order exists to benefit society, not your family. Locking him up is meant to have a net gain for society as a whole, not your family.

Some people argue that excessive incarceration has a net harm on society. That's the better analogy here.

People don't want to lose access to a deck style that was itself dead for years? Ok. I sympathise, but that doesn't give you a free pass. Lest we remember this style of deck has died before.

I can (sadly) accept when a play-style has receded. I cannot get behind engineering this by a ban.

If Goblins gets a new toy, becomes top dog again, but is contained at 15% and is the format's only aggro deck, would you support a debilitating (aggro killing) ban so more midrange decks can be viable?

[Megadeus]

I vote terminus. I think Julian said it best on Leaving a Legacy podcast. Counter Top was a powerful combo for years, but before the printing of Avacyn was basically dead because the format managed it, and that was before decay and cavern existed. The thing that brought it back and put it over the top currently in some people's eyes now was the 1 mana get out of jail free card. Plus losing counter balance means you don't really have any similar type effect. It's a fairly unique card. Losing terminus means you simply must compromise and run a slightly higher costed wrath effect, but there are many terminus alternatives. They just happen to be fairly costed

[Crimhead]

I vote terminus.

If something from Miracles has to go, this is my pick. I would only hope another true (non-midrangy) control deck could emerge from the ashes.

[Dice_Box]

If you have evidence presented that Miracles top8s above it representation, please present.

Meanwhile 15% is not overwhelming and the format is diverse.

DTB section. There is also those who have crunched the numbers here. I am not digging for them because I am on my phone but the trend line for Miracles success rate is higher than anything in the history of the format. Also it's ability to adapt to almost any line of attack is beyond unreasonable.

Not the same at all. The banned list exists to ensure format diversity. Any ban should have a net positive here.

Yea it is. Miracles is too effective at the things it does. It's the best at creatures control and prison effects while also having access to counters. The deck can lock out Aggro, Tempo and Combo all without a second glance. Taking out one of its angles of attack would be a net positive.

Law and order exists to benefit society, not your family. Locking him up is meant to have a net gain for society as a whole, not your family.

And banning something substantial out of Miracles would benefit Legacy as a whole, not just Miracles players stomping everything.

I can (sadly) accept when a play-style has receded. I cannot get behind engineering this by a ban.

It's the consequence of necessity. You don't have to like it, but you can't hide behind it debating that a choice shouldn't be made, not because it's reasonable but because you feel emotional about its loss.

If Goblins gets a new toy, becomes top dog again, but is contained at 15% and is the format's only aggro deck, would you support a debilitating (aggro killing) ban so more midrange decks can be viable?

I am not looking for anything else to be top dog, I am not after Midrange or Combo or anything else to be top. I don't have a motive here other than "Can someone please do something about this fucking deck?" If Goblins was the DTB for 4 years, had no weaknesses that it can't cover or adapt to with ease and continually punched above its weight, yea, take it down a peg. I was playing Dredge in Modern before the ban, I didn't disagree with it.

I am not seeking a ban because is dislike a deck. I did once, I have matured (Ok maybe not.) since then. My dislike for cards like Brainstorm have hit the apathy that comes when you accept nothing will change there. I am not a fool, I know what's reasonable and I don't feel like I am being unreasonable.

Let's be real here. You and I have been debating this shit since you joined. Are we really going to agree now? Nothing changes, your views and your arguments don't change. My views and my arguments don't change. What exactly are we achieving here? Your still emotionally clinging to the hope something doesn't get done because you dislike the perceived consequences of the act, not because you can debate the act is not deserved. I just can't dive down this rabbit hole again. It's going to go nowhere and nothing is new here.

If you come up with a new argument let me know. Until then I am done. If for no other reason than simply "This is not changing anything".

[CptHaddock]

If Goblins gets a new toy, becomes top dog again, but is contained at 15% and is the format's only aggro deck, would you support a debilitating (aggro killing) ban so more midrange decks can be viable?

Maybe?

There is nothing wrong with being top dog in the format, there is always going to be a best or set of best decks in the format. The problem arises when the top decks aren't being effected by anything in the format. Over the last year we've seen a series of cards with high power levels being printed for Legacy: Leovold, Chandra, Recruiter of the Guard, Prelate, etc but none of these cards have really impacted miracles. It should be pretty telling that the only cards that have successfully dethroned the archetype broke Legacy (Cruise/DTT) with miracles very easily adapting one of the format breaking cards and continuing it's success.

Legacy has such a deep card pool that problems often fix themselves. If goblins becomes a powerhouse in Legacy it's not that hard to combat. People are going to start sleeving up more and more board wipes, engineered plagues and the like to combat the deck. I think that you roughly argue the same for most archetypes in Legacy. Miracles is a different beast in and of itself. It rarely folds to a single angle of attack, it's naturally immune from certain types of hate and can completely tailor it's sideboard to attack hate cards without really effecting the construction of the deck or how it operates.

I'm also not sure where this meme of everyone wanting a midrange format is coming from. Can we stop comparing modern to Legacy? They're very different formats.

[Lemnear]

This is an unbiased and accurate description of a deck which splashes

Your intellectual honesty is wasted in this thread.

I don't think the format has a problem with too much BUG. D&T, Infect, Eldrazi, Storm, S&T are doing very well, with Burn, Elves, and Lands still quite relevant. Only the good-stuff decks are hung up BUGx colours.

Nah, its just an amusing and ironical remark about the color-streamlining of decks (which can't dodge CB via manacosts or ways to get under it) and people throwing "BGx" into the room without noticing how vague this description is these days

[Gheizen64]

I honestly don't like anything being banned from miracle that's not BS for the simple reason that miracle being the best deck in the format and being a counterbalance+ force deck does a lot to keep stupid combo decks at bay. If top or counterbalance or anything else get axed and we lose the primary safety valve of the format you could end up with a format where combo is a significant presence of the meta, and let's be frank, a big part of the appeal of legacy is being able to play a lot of different janky decks with the assumption that you are bad vs combo but won't play a lot against it. Banning BS on the other hand would hit both miracle AND most combo lists at the same time (exception for belcher/oops i guess which are zzz).

It also feel like "ban everything but necro". The card is a draw 3 that enable instant speed W wrath + recursion hoser and instant speed 3WW i win the game on untap.

Alternatively, ban petal and unban bargain and search. Make the format more friendly for non-blue making non-force answers to combo better.

[H]

Let's all just be realistic and recognize there is almost no chance anything happens in any case...

[JDK]

It's funny how people tend to see midrange as "non-control".

[Megadeus]

I honestly don't like anything being banned from miracle that's not BS for the simple reason that miracle being the best deck in the format and being a counterbalance+ force deck does a lot to keep stupid combo decks at bay. If top or counterbalance or anything else get axed and we lose the primary safety valve of the format you could end up with a format where combo is a significant presence of the meta, and let's be frank, a big part of the appeal of legacy is being able to play a lot of different janky decks with the assumption that you are bad vs combo but won't play a lot against it. Banning BS on the other hand would hit both miracle AND most combo lists at the same time (exception for belcher/oops i guess which are zzz).

It also feel like "ban everything but necro". The card is a draw 3 that enable instant speed W wrath + recursion hoser and instant speed 3WW i win the game on untap.

Alternatively, ban petal and unban bargain and search. Make the format more friendly for non-blue making non-force answers to combo better.

I'm not sure why you (and a few others it seems) feel like if miracles lost counter balance that storm and other fast combo would overrun the format. Tempo strategies that are currently pretty limited by miracles generally have very positive match ups against combo as well as hate bear decks like maverick can also have good combo match ups. I just don't see why we think that the format needs counter balance to police the format when there's a million ways to fight various combo decks

[CptHaddock]

It's funny how people tend to see midrange as "non-control".

Don't forget how only UWx decks can be control decks.

[Claymore]

This thread could just as well be focused on speculating if Legacy is even acknowledged in the Wizards update, and if Legacy is a supported format period in a few years time.

My bet is that they have a full article disposition on how Vintage is tentatively okay right now or something is restricted. Modern gets a one paragraph banning, Standard and Pauper no changes. Legacy isn't mentioned.

Look at the glassdoor reviews on Wizards. The company is a good ol boys club from the top on down, obscenely political and back stabby, and incredibly inbred with pro-tour players as developers and no new blood or changes in the pipelines. They had employees go on Glassdoor last year to leave fake positive reviews to try and recruit better. The Randy Beuhler moron or whatever has an in to the B&R people, which is why Vintage is getting attention so that his Vintage Super League can be relevant. Someone at the top hates Legacy and no one will make a push to upset that point of view, or else it's suicide for corporate aspirations.

I'd gladly be horribly wrong.

[Crimhead]

It's funny how people tend to see midrange as "non-control".

Midrange elements are things which can easily provide offense or defense (aka, SFM), depending on what the situation calls for. Hard control decks are made of things that are much better suited for defense. In the context of the deck, of course.

Yes, some grindier midrange decks lean more to control than other midrange decks. These are different from hard control decks - and I find it funny that people pretend this distinction doesn't exist!

I'm, not interested in semantics such as whether or not grindy midrange do or don't counts as control. I'm saying control decks that are not also midrange decks add more diversity to a format that already has midrange decks.

DTB section. There is also those who have crunched the numbers here.

None of which show its actual win-rate or measure its success against its representation. Do you have any new arguments?

Let's be real here. You and I have been debating this shit since you joined. Are we really going to agree now? Nothing changes, your views and your arguments don't change. My views and my arguments don't change. What exactly are we achieving here? Your still emotionally clinging to the hope something doesn't get done because you dislike the perceived consequences of the act, not because you can debate the act is not deserved.

No, I'm claiming that by virtue of being a unique play-style, Miracles adds more diversity than it subtracts (by vritue of being 15% of top8s). That simple. Having a top deck is only bad if it hurts diversity. enough tier one decks have a +ve Miracles match that it is contained - even if it is top dog.

You might disagree, but I am not being emotional beyond a desire for diversity of play-styles.

Incidentally, we've been arguing about the banned list since before I joined. Why break tradition?

Nah, its just an amusing and ironical remark about the color-streamlining of decks (which can't dodge CB via manacosts or ways to get under it) and people throwing "BGx" into the room without noticing how vague this description is these days

Okay, you get a pass!

Don't forget how only UWx decks can be control decks.

I'd love to see a hard control deck! Or MUC.

[JDK]

I do get your point of wanting a "hard control" deck, but that was not my point. The point I made was about disregarding "midrange" as control decks per se, which happened in this thread. Funnily enough, you trying to explain the term and then "hard control" proves that point, especially if you look at how Miracles incorporated Mentor.

Don't forget how only UWx decks can be control decks.

Exactly ^^

[Crimhead]

I do get your point of wanting a "hard control" deck, but that was not my point. The point I made was about disregarding "midrange" as control decks per se, which happened in this thread. Funnily enough, you trying to explain the term and then "hard control" proves that point, especially if you look at how Miracles incorporated Mentor.

Mentor Miracles (the minority of lists) is "softer" control than other Miracles lists. Ponder and Legends Miracles are definitely hard control though.

Midrange/control is a thing, but it's exactly that - midrange/control. I don't like for all the non-combo decks to be balanced mixes of aggressive and controlling elements. That's not diversity.

I never said hard control needs to be . Please don't ascribe that to me. It's just that our only such deck happens to be .