View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

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  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #17121
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    I'm not sure that Frantic Search would be a problem card, but that's a rather facile dismissal. Frantic Search also has potential synergies with graveyard stuff like dredge or reanimator and decks that run sol lands.
    It has potential synergies, but the likelihood any deck of that sort would run it over Careful Study/Faithless Looting is rather low. As for sol land decks, they dump their hand so quickly the card disadvantage here would often be a burden. But hey perhaps Faerie Stompy can be a deck again.

  2. #17122

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Academy Unban seems uterly rediciously to me. It might be the most busted land in mtg history (depending on the context). Would make storm much better and would probably enable a Belcher style T1 deck. It just won't ever happen...

    Y.Will has lost some power, it was considered one if not the most powerful card when I played Vintage back in the early 2000s. Stillunsafe becaus I would argue, it would make storm faster more then a turn. Land LED rit Will is allready storm count 5 with 5 Mana floating, throw in busted things you can do with petal probe, etc. I don't think people get how much better than PiF it would be.

  3. #17123
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ellomdian View Post
    As it stands today, I think the 'safe' unbans are Earthcraft, Mind Twist, and Imperial Seal. I'm not entirely sure if Hermit Druid isn't just the 'it's been there forever' boogeyman at this point. And I would love to see Bargain unbanned to give the format a bit of a shakeup - people spend a lot of time cheating Grizzlebees into play already, I am curious if anyone other than storm would even play Bargain, and at 6 mana, is it that much better than ad-nause?
    Sort of. While you can average the manacost of Storm and get something like .75 life per card; YawgBarg gives you the ability to unrestrict the mana cost of cards again. You can just run 3 and not be punished on a life-point basis for it. Storm is normally super careful about incorporating high CMC cards because Ad Naus creates tensions around it; YawgBarg is relatively uninteresting for those tensions.

    I actually think Grisel is fine when you use Reanimate because the tension between paying 8 life and then paying another 7 is pretty dangerous; and if the opp has already punched you with a dude a couple times, you can't even pay it. It's the time he's Exhumed, S&T'd, or similar that make him a straight bargain.

    Getting back to AN; it also makes you do it all at once. You can't pay a life, ponder, get the best card, shuffle, pay a life, etc.
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  4. #17124

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ellomdian View Post
    Wat? Come on man, I've read some of your other posts, you're smarter than that. Will is straight-up-bonkers-busto in any format where D Rit is legal. Willing for Value, play a fetch, bstrom, do something random is still great. You're talking about Storm going off a full turn earlier on average.
    Except he specifically said if LED wasn't legal. Reading is hard.

  5. #17125

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    One card unbanned, and so far, WotC is listening to the people, at least in order if not quantity.
    My poll two years ago

    I guess it'll go Mind Twist -> Earthcraft maybe-> Survival of the Fittest


  6. #17126
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ellomdian View Post
    Wat? Come on man, I've read some of your other posts, you're smarter than that. Will is straight-up-bonkers-busto in any format where D Rit is legal. Willing for Value, play a fetch, bstrom, do something random is still great. You're talking about Storm going off a full turn earlier on average.



    FTFY. Academy is 'decks that don't exist today would be T1' good. Sure, it makes Tezz better, and is really, really good in storm, but Academy being legal would probably allow for some kind of Mono-U-Belcher-ish deck in Legacy.

    As it stands today, I think the 'safe' unbans are Earthcraft, Mind Twist, and Imperial Seal. I'm not entirely sure if Hermit Druid isn't just the 'it's been there forever' boogeyman at this point. And I would love to see Bargain unbanned to give the format a bit of a shakeup - people spend a lot of time cheating Grizzlebees into play already, I am curious if anyone other than storm would even play Bargain, and at 6 mana, is it that much better than ad-nause?
    I've tested hermit druid somewhat extensively. It pose too much of a strain on the format in the sense that it's another coinflip deck. Think of it as a much more consistent belcher. It ask you "do you have an answer T1 for it? else you lose". And can easily run some protection, unlike belcher. It's an uninteresting card that ask all of the wrong questions to the format in my opinion, making it even more luck dependent.

    Search and Survival are way , way safer than hermit druid.

    Even Bargain which i consider at the extreme fringe of unbannable, is worse than hermit druid. It would definitely, however, push Show and Tell over the edge. 8 Griselbrands of which 4 hardcastable in a SnT deck is zzz. If petal or brainstorm were to be banned, Bargain could definitely come off. But since WotC banned top and essentially surgically banned just one deck without depowering derpstrategies significantly, bargain is safer banned.

    I already wrote a list somewhere iirc, but reiterating:

    Black Vise tier, aka some poster say they're absolutely broken and call me mentally handicapped then they never see play:
    Earthcraft

    Fringe playables sometimes:
    Mind Twist
    Recruiter
    Frantic Search

    Probably playable to moderately playable:
    Survival of the Fittest (way worse in current format than the old miracle one, so much tempo and combo make it unplayable)

    Unbannable cards if they banned lotus petal or brainstorm:
    Yawgmoth's Bargain
    Windfall

    Unbannable if they banned brainstorm:
    Sensei's Divining Top (yes i liked miracles as a deck concept, it needed nerfing not nuking)

    I have honestly never played with imperial seal. I'm pretty sure vampiric is busted, but i'm not sure how much worse would seal be. To me, it seems still absolutely stupid in decks like BR reanimator. Maybe if they banned petal it wouldn't make combo too degenerate.

  7. #17127

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gheizen64 View Post
    I've tested hermit druid somewhat extensively. It pose too much of a strain on the format in the sense that it's another coinflip deck. Think of it as a much more consistent belcher. It ask you "do you have an answer T1 for it? else you lose". And can easily run some protection, unlike belcher. It's an uninteresting card that ask all of the wrong questions to the format in my opinion, making it even more luck dependent.

    Search and Survival are way , way safer than hermit druid.

    Even Bargain which i consider at the extreme fringe of unbannable, is worse than hermit druid. It would definitely, however, push Show and Tell over the edge. 8 Griselbrands of which 4 hardcastable in a SnT deck is zzz. If petal or brainstorm were to be banned, Bargain could definitely come off. But since WotC banned top and essentially surgically banned just one deck without depowering derpstrategies significantly, bargain is safer banned.

    I already wrote a list somewhere iirc, but reiterating:

    Black Vise tier, aka some poster say they're absolutely broken and call me mentally handicapped then they never see play:
    Earthcraft

    Fringe playables sometimes:
    Mind Twist
    Recruiter
    Frantic Search

    Probably playable to moderately playable:
    Survival of the Fittest (way worse in current format than the old miracle one, so much tempo and combo make it unplayable)

    Unbannable cards if they banned lotus petal or brainstorm:
    Yawgmoth's Bargain
    Windfall

    Unbannable if they banned brainstorm:
    Sensei's Divining Top (yes i liked miracles as a deck concept, it needed nerfing not nuking)

    I have honestly never played with imperial seal. I'm pretty sure vampiric is busted, but i'm not sure how much worse would seal be. To me, it seems still absolutely stupid in decks like BR reanimator. Maybe if they banned petal it wouldn't make combo too degenerate.
    I agree completely with this list, except you forgot about Mana Drain, which would probably help a Ux control deck come back into the format now that Miracles is dead.

  8. #17128
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    All this talk of the most broken lands and not a single mention of Library of Alexandria? I've seen this card singlehandedly win games. I've personally had it draw me as many as 5 cards in a game before...

    Also, I'd put Gush in the Top 10 most broken list. Draw 2 for 0 mana is absurd and would push Mentor to Tier 1 in Legacy.
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  9. #17129

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    All this talk of the most broken lands and not a single mention of Library of Alexandria? I've seen this card singlehandedly win games. I've personally had it draw me as many as 5 cards in a game before...

    Also, I'd put Gush in the Top 10 most broken list. Draw 2 for 0 mana is absurd and would push Mentor to Tier 1 in Legacy.
    I'll piggyback this, Gush in a format with brainstorm un-restricted would be bonkers, would also really devalue wastelands leading to even more greedy manabases.

  10. #17130

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Honestly I've never seen the alleged broken potential of Library of Alexendria, in fact I'd rather classify it as jank by today's standards and doubt it would see much play if it was legal....

  11. #17131
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Erdvermampfa View Post
    Honestly I've never seen the alleged broken potential of Library of Alexendria, in fact I'd rather classify it as jank by today's standards and doubt it would see much play if it was legal....
    You must not watch/play alot of Vintage then. Library is absurd.
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Erdvermampfa View Post
    Honestly I've never seen the alleged broken potential of Library of Alexendria, in fact I'd rather classify it as jank by today's standards and doubt it would see much play if it was legal....
    Free uncounterable card advantage is something I'd pay a lot of money for. If, of course, I had a lot of money...
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  13. #17133

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    All this talk of the most broken lands and not a single mention of Library of Alexandria? I've seen this card singlehandedly win games. I've personally had it draw me as many as 5 cards in a game before...

    Also, I'd put Gush in the Top 10 most broken list. Draw 2 for 0 mana is absurd and would push Mentor to Tier 1 in Legacy.
    In Legacy, or in general? I'm sure Gush would be crazy in Legacy but I don't think it was an issue in Standard and wasn't that popular in Pauper. You really need the fetchland+dual land combo (to consistently be able to have Islands to return, otherwise your dual lands can't bounce and it's restricted to mono-Blue) plus Wasteland running rampant (turning the alternate cost into an outright benefit) for it to become broken, I feel.

    Its power seems to circumstance-based for me to consider it in the top 10 most broken list. Don't get me wrong, it's absurd when those circumstances are met, but to get into a "top 10 most broken list" I think you need to be broken in just about any context.

  14. #17134
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Gush Mentor wouldn't be nearly as broken if you could resolve a fucking 1 drop through the wall of Derpsteps in vintage.
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  15. #17135
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Erdvermampfa View Post
    Honestly I've never seen the alleged broken potential of Library of Alexendria, in fact I'd rather classify it as jank by today's standards and doubt it would see much play if it was legal....
    I would instantly play 3 in like most decks in Legacy.

    On the draw, drop Library, pass, eot draw card, untap, drop second land, play SFM ... turn 2 and already plus 2 cardadvantage, whoopwhoop
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  16. #17136

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Erdvermampfa View Post
    Honestly I've never seen the alleged broken potential of Library of Alexendria, in fact I'd rather classify it as jank by today's standards and doubt it would see much play if it was legal....
    Have ever seen his card in action? It annihilates any control or grindy midrange mirror-style MU. Especially as CA is harder to come by in Legacy compared to Vintage.

    Also I would like to see the spike that an unbanning would cause It's allready a 450€ Card... Should exceed Tabernacle very easily then.

    Same problem I see for Mana Drain, the judge reprint is fine but before an unbanning they'd need to put it in Eternal Masters or something, it would easily be 300-400+ if unbanned now I guess.

  17. #17137
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by MorphBerlin View Post
    Have ever seen his card in action? It annihilates any control or grindy midrange mirror-style MU. Especially as CA is harder to come by in Legacy compared to Vintage.

    Also I would like to see the spike that an unbanning would cause It's allready a 450€ Card... Should exceed Tabernacle very easily then.

    Same problem I see for Mana Drain, the judge reprint is fine but before an unbanning they'd need to put it in Eternal Masters or something, it would easily be 300-400+ if unbanned now I guess.
    Yeah, they will never unban crazy rare shit like Library, because of the market going overboard if they would. Of top of that we have the powerlevel.
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  18. #17138
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    It's funny how Brainstorm-Haters think Library is a fine card, probably because it isn't blue.

    (at least that's how I remember Erdvermampfa, maybe my memory serves me wrong though and I apologize in that case)

  19. #17139
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by JDK View Post
    It's funny how Brainstorm-Haters think Library is a fine card, probably because it isn't blue.

    (at least that's how I remember Erdvermampfa, maybe my memory serves me wrong though and I apologize in that case)
    Stop trying to get a Brainstorm argument going here where there is not one. This thread is a shit pile when that comes up, just leave well enough alone.
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by rlesko View Post
    Except he specifically said if LED wasn't legal. Reading is hard.
    Yeah, cause if LED was banned, then Will would be fine! Pay no attention to the DRits, CabalRits, Petals, the ability to replay a Fetch, and any number of Cantrips that you used to get to that Will in the first place. I'd happily argue that DRit is more busto than stupid LED under a theoretical Legacy Will turn, since LED makes you RFG the stuff in your hand when you dump it. LED != Black Lotus, no matter how much it may look like it sometimes. Ask someone who plays Bomberman in Legacy and Vintage what the difference is. Sheesh.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gheizen64 View Post
    I've tested hermit druid somewhat extensively.
    You're doing the Lord's work saving us from a theoretical waste of time. What does it even look like - Hyper Dredge?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gheizen64 View Post
    I have honestly never played with imperial seal. I'm pretty sure vampiric is busted, but i'm not sure how much worse would seal be. To me, it seems still absolutely stupid in decks like BR reanimator. Maybe if they banned petal it wouldn't make combo too degenerate.
    Vampiric is busted because you can EoT it, so your opponent never gets the opportunity to interact at sorcery speed. Imperial requires spending a second effort to get the card immediately into hand. Of course, I am biased, because I think the format could use some more non-creature-based toolbox stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    All this talk of the most broken lands and not a single mention of Library of Alexandria? I've seen this card singlehandedly win games. I've personally had it draw me as many as 5 cards in a game before...
    If you're only drawing 5 cards with library, you're doing it wrong... :) The difference is that Library increases your odds of winning the game every turn that it's in play and active. Academy often just wins the game for you when it shows up.
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