All B/R update speculation.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

You're deluding yourself if you think this will actually happen, the antecedent or the consequent. I'm not sure why people all of a sudden wanted to ban really benign cards. They aren't format warping or terribly unfun, or combo cards, aren't ubiquitous or obnoxious enough by any metric that is used to ban cards. No, "boring" and "brainless" don't count either.

I didn't say they would ban those cards... it's very likely though -- if they did -- those archetypes would rise back to power because what oppressed them would no longer be in the format (i.e. free Batterskull against aggro and GSZ cheating cc's for Countertop).

Way to be obnoxious, man. Seriously.

[DragoFireheart]

Maybe WotC will just ban Legacy so they can force everyone to play Modern.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Maybe WotC will just ban Legacy so they can force everyone to play Modern.

This wouldn't surprise me...

[Amon Amarth]

I didn't say they would ban those cards... it's very likely though

OK. So, what I'm getting here is that you don't know what you're talking about.

-- if they did -- those archetypes would rise back to power because what oppressed them would no longer be in the format (i.e. free Batterskull against aggro and GSZ cheating cc's for Countertop).

Way to be obnoxious, man. Seriously.

Banning cards doesn't automatically make the decks said cards oppressed suddenly viable. If that were true then why wasn't Countertop and Goblins seeing significant after MM got banned? Oh, right, because that's an overly simplistic view of how this format actually works. For example, Merfolk isn't dominating right now because there really aren't a lot of reasons to actually play it. It used to be great anti-Blue deck but at least since Snapcaster Mage was printed Blue decks are much more removal heavy without having to play dead cards in other matches. Factoring in how bad Merfolk is against decks with creatures, it's not really surprising the deck isn't performing as well as it has in the past.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

If that were true then why wasn't Countertop and Goblins seeing significant after MM got banned?

Because Green Sun's Zenith and Stoneforge Mystic were still in the format.

[Honorik]

I think something absolutely unexpectedly can happen tomorrow. The format have to many problematic that hurt the current metagame. No one want to see all of them banned.

1. Stoneforge Mystic - this card pushed out many aggro decks out of the meta or force those aggro decks to play the card itself. You can notice that the card is more widely played ever than tarmogoyf back in the days. Control played it, Zoo and maverick use it, BW...

2. Green sun zenith - a reusable tutor for creatures. If you don't play this card in your aggro deck you are doing it wrong.

3. Brainstorm - the best card in the format giving the best thing in this game of randomness and luck - card selection and quality and all those things for one mana at instant speed.

4. Snapcaster 8 virtual swords or bolts ? Adding some more consistence to the blue deck byflash back Brainstorm.

5. A blue Wild Nacatl that flies !?!


So in my opinion legacy just reached the threshold. You don't have mnay other options but to restrict cards. No one want all of those or just some of this cards banned. If they manage to create a good restricted list we can have cards like Survival, Land Tax, Recruiter inbanned and restricted.

Now or later I don't see any other chance for the format.

[Einherjer]

Whats up with you guys? Why are you playing Legacy, honestly?!?!

I play Legacy, even though I mentioned this already somewhere else, to do things like:

1)Fetchland, go, hes playing something, on response I fetch for a dual, either brainstorm for a Force now or remove it eot, Then on my turn I drop another fetch, crack it, play dual and go SFM, he forces, I force back. go

or..

2)Underground Sea, LED, LED, Ritual, Ritual, Infernal Tutor, crack LED, get Ad Naseaum, draw 15 cards, loose 18 life, Cabal Ritual, Duress, Ritual, Tendrils of Agony

or...

3) Island, go, Force Spike, Island go, Spell Snare, Island go, Counterspell, Island go.................. Jace and won

or...

4)Windswept Heath, fetch, Savannah, Mother of Runes, Next turn drop a SFM, then a GSZ with endless variants of powerful cards in your deck.......



You get what I want to say? I do play Legacy to use all this powerful spells, because I like playing in a powerful tournament enviroment, if you dont go play Modern.


BAN NOTHING, LEGACY IS FINE!!!


Greetings

[Dia_Bot]

If anything SFM is probably going to get banned as it succesfully pushes zoo and goblin decks out of the format. But I guess we'll see tommorow.

[Amon Amarth]

Because Green Sun's Zenith and Stoneforge Mystic were still in the format.

Without rehashing things too much, there are other reasons why those decks haven't made a resurgence. CT had a hard time dealing with decks that actually had mana curves and some versions were pretty good against some decks but terrible against others. Not really where you want to be with a control deck in the format. And the CT lock isn't even that hard to deal with. It also shares a problem with other slow decks where it can draw games due to it's lack of a clock. IMHO, the archetype is just bad now.

Goblins isn't even disadvantaged against decks that play these cards. Things like Tin-Street Hooligan, Weirding, Perish, Sharpshooter, Fanatic are excellent against some or all of the Zenith/SFM decks. These decks, by design, are slow and can't make Goblins interact in ways that it doesn't excel at, i.e. the stack. Goblins isn't played because it was ridiculed to death for awhile as well as just being deceptively difficult to play. You can only watch so many people knee-jerk Matron into Piledrivers.

I don't think these are viable cards to ban. Zenith is far too slow and is a very limited tutor. Stoneforge Mystic is a creature. The requirements for creatures are extraordinarily high. It needs to be on the power level of Hermit Druid, which is a one-card combo. Stoneforge is nowhere near that power level. Banning these cards only reduces diversity of the format.

[Honorik]

You get what I want to say? I do play Legacy to use all this powerful spells, because I like playing in a powerful tournament enviroment, if you dont go play Modern.

Go play Vintage, you can play a lot more powerful spells there. Why you are playing Legacy ? You cannot play even with Yag's Will and Tinker.

Something radical should be done with the format as I said. If you ban brainstorm, you still can have problem with snapcater. If you ban Stoneforge you are killing the only one non - blue, non - dredge tier 1 valid deck. Same with zenith.

I really pray they will make a restricted list. May be not now, but that's the only right move.

[sir]

I don't think any bans right now are called for (although Delver should not have been printed in Blue), but ... the idea of banning Stoneforge Mystic and, good god, GSZ ... after all this discussion, complaint, and speculation about blue-dominance seems so frighteningly absurd and stupid that I'm actually worried that it might happen. The universe is absurd and stupider things have happened.

Ugh, that would be so silly.

[Rizso]

Because Green Sun's Zenith and Stoneforge Mystic were still in the format.

Not exactly true. Goblins kinda gets hated out by snapcaster + 1c removals like bolt, plow and Path. Counterbalance get hate out by gsz and that snapcaster and CB dont work that well together in the same deck and snapcaster is pretty much better in the aggro and control matchups.

Anyway as powerful as Snapcaster, GSZ and stoneforge are, they arent that hard to deal with or do to broken things. GSZ was a problem in modern as GSZ for a titan or ramp to it was a strong and solid game plan same as it is in standard and old standard with valakut.

Its not really blue that holding back aggro but rather combo that holds it back and pushes the blue deck in to prefairance.

[dahcmai]

I think I'll just bet on Black Vise coming off for legacy and Punishing Fires in Modern getting hit.


Take into consideration, I'm usually wrong on the guesses for this though.

[snappingbowls | ಠ_ಠ]

BAN NOTHING, LEGACY IS FINE!!!


Seriously, having these sort of threads don't do anyone good because you get an asston of people who read and bitch about legacy way more than they play it posting really, really dumb suggestions. They see a card, and know its powerful and it sees alot of play, they're obviously legacy experts, and the card is too good, so it must be banned.

don't ban anything, if the legacy banned list gets managed in the way modern has then we can kiss this format goodbye

[Honorik]

100 % something will be banned. Just wait a few hours.

[snappingbowls | ಠ_ಠ]

no reason to ban anything this company needs some new blood; somehow its full of retards who know less than nothing about eternal formats

yo when did vintage go belly up? after gifts and brainstorm got chopped... sorry people like blue and eternal is where you get to play blue... honestly fuck color balance play whats fun

[sir]

yo when did vintage go belly up? after gifts and brainstorm got chopped... sorry people like blue and eternal is where you get to play blue... honestly fuck color balance play whats fun

I don't agree about color balance, because color balance is a good rubric for designing (or maintaining) a lively format with a lot of strategies, variation, stylistic choice, and working room for excellence in deck building and in play.

I still don't think Brainstorm should eat a ban tomorrow, and especially nor should anything else.

I hope they were not feeling too trigger-happy and gratuitous in the halls of decision. Tread softly Wizards ... you tread on a beloved format. :(

(Feel free to continue using the Modern project as target practice if you really want.)



Anyway ... it's all just placing bets now. The news will be in soon enough.

[BenBleiweiss]

My personal feeling is that Modern is going to have a bunch of bans, because we're about to lead into a MOdern PTQ season - but that Legacy probably won't have any bannings this time around. If anything, there are still some "safe" cards to unban IMO: Black Vise, Mind Twist.

- Ben

[sdematt]

Black Vise would help deal with Stoneblade...

-Matt

[sir]

Oh yeah, I completely agree. Unbanning those two seems entirely sensible & fine IMO.