All B/R update speculation.

[Dice_Box]

Is this thread really more worried about a 3/1 for 3 and not the card that enables greedy manabases and casts that dreaded 3/1 for 3?

That is an extremely loaded question with the way you phrased it.

[Mr Miagi]

well, tnn is obnoxiously uninteractive. It's the first thing I'd like to have removed from legacy...

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

That is an extremely loaded question with the way you phrased it.

A bit but to suggest that TNN is more problematic than DRS simply because it's hard to kill and holds a sword incredibly well is absurd.

[Stuart]

the card that enables greedy manabases and casts that dreaded 3/1 for 3?

You mean Brainstorm?

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

No that just gives my opponent an aneurysm and causes them to lose all motor control.

I definitely understand the confusion

[Purple Blood]

Sure, but how do we distinguish between "S&T is the problem" and "Griselderp is the problem?"

I kind of look at it as whether they think the archetype itself is the problem (if so then ban the enablers) or if they think the archetype is fine but just a little overpowered (if so then ban the best payoffs or fast mana type cards).

[Zombie]

I kind of look at it as whether they think the archetype itself is the problem (if so then ban the enablers) or if they think the archetype is fine but just a little overpowered (if so then ban the best payoffs or fast mana type cards).

For me it's honestly not that - as far as objective powerlevel goes, both TNN and S&T+Omnibrand are manageable. Neither breaks the format. They're just distilled binaryness and boredom concentrate and rob the show floor from more nuanced and interesting boardstates and more, for the lack of a better word, "magical" ways to do broken things. I don't want prison to be lockpiece, kek im ded, but slowly succumbing to the inexorable burdens of Smokestack and Crucible or your deck gradually ceasing to operate as Revokers and Mindcensors twist the rules of the game to say "fuck you". I'd like to have Protection from everything not be a casual beater but the actual risk and investment that Natural Order requires. That GY hate didn't perma-delete everything constantly. Simple stuff like that.

[Megadeus]

For me it's honestly not that - as far as objective powerlevel goes, both TNN and S&T+Omnibrand are manageable. Neither breaks the format. They're just distilled binaryness and boredom concentrate and rob the show floor from more nuanced and interesting boardstates and more, for the lack of a better word, "magical" ways to do broken things. I don't want prison to be lockpiece, kek im ded, but slowly succumbing to the inexorable burdens of Smokestack and Crucible or your deck gradually ceasing to operate as Revokers and Mindcensors twist the rules of the game to say "fuck you". I'd like to have Protection from everything not be a casual beater but the actual risk and investment that Natural Order requires. That GY hate didn't perma-delete everything constantly. Simple stuff like that.

From now on, whatever Zombie says I probably agree

I just hate that the argument against mind Twist is that even if it's not too powerful it "adds nothing" to the format. But that's exactly how I feel about True Name and Show and Chimp

[Purple Blood]

For me it's honestly not that - as far as objective powerlevel goes, both TNN and S&T+Omnibrand are manageable. Neither breaks the format. They're just distilled binaryness and boredom concentrate and rob the show floor from more nuanced and interesting boardstates and more, for the lack of a better word, "magical" ways to do broken things. I don't want prison to be lockpiece, kek im ded, but slowly succumbing to the inexorable burdens of Smokestack and Crucible or your deck gradually ceasing to operate as Revokers and Mindcensors twist the rules of the game to say "fuck you". I'd like to have Protection from everything not be a casual beater but the actual risk and investment that Natural Order requires. That GY hate didn't perma-delete everything constantly. Simple stuff like that.

I tend to agree with you. The problem is where do you draw the line. You can say it's subjectively boring to play a game where the first two turns of the opponent is T1: Underground Sea, DRS, go. Daze your play. T2: wasteland your land, go. Same can be said for any number of things like Storm which is the kind of deck that does nothing until it goes for it or Chalice decks which are Sol Land Chalice go or Sol Land Mox Bloodmoon, "lol I win."

If you remove all of these you wind up with a shitty format like Frontier which is just a bunch of midrange value decks with a single strategy for winning.

[Crimhead]

I just hate that the argument against mind Twist is that even if it's not too powerful it "adds nothing" to the format. But that's exactly how I feel about True Name and Show and Chimp

AFAIK, that's not an actual argument used by WotC/DCI to justify the continued ban. It's just players flapping their mouths.

Also, for what it's worth, TNN does help to keep (non-D&T) Blade decks relevant. Personally I don't care at all, but I think SFM is a card a lot of people do like to play.

If you remove all of these you wind up with a shitty format like Frontier which is just a bunch of midrange value decks with a single strategy for winning.

Yeah. I cringe whenever I see players advocating the banning of an (admittedly not oppressive) card or deck on the grounds that they don't personally enjoy it.
We've all seen the results of WotC's fun policing in other formats.

[tescrin]

AFAIK, that's not an actual argument used by WotC/DCI to justify the continued ban. It's just players flapping their mouths.

I would hate to dig through years of Rosewater's blogs, but I mentioned in "Current State of Magic" that the answer I got from Rosewater himself when I queried on Mind Twist (because even years ago we all said "yeah, like.. just put it back in already") was simply "Lol cuz it's broken", possibly spelled differently.

WotC's main spot-light guy thinks it's too bonkers; can't say much for the other people there but I'd imagine anything ever deemed broken in the past is deemed broken now by default.

[Fox]

I don't think TNN is really on the power level of ban-worthy. If there's a good reason to ban it, I would point to its intended use of naming an opponent in a game with 2-3 total opponents. There's plenty of poorly designed uninteractive cards, but we're generally not going to see ban + here's the fixed version (like Earthcraft and Cryptolith Rite). I'm not really sure what the point of talking about fix vs ban is, but these would be changes that would make legacy better for some uninteractive cards:
-TNN: in a game with >1 opponent, choose 1. Alternatively, choose a player or a PW and TNN gains protection from that player's spells or that PW's abilities.
-Cavern of Souls: mana generated can only be used to cast named tribe (like Mishra's Workshop). Additionally change wording to say mana can be used to cast noncreature spells of named tribe, just without uncounterability clause. As far as Eldrazi are concerned, Cavern's colorless mana gains tribal uncounterable wording.
-Aether Vial: forced to add a counter each turn. Alternatively, when activated and creature is put into play (or attempted in the case of say Priest on board), remove all counters.
-Counterbalance: symmetrical and pay 2 life to counter a spell. Adding Cumulative Upkeep on top of those fixes is overkill, but definitely not without precedent (see Tidal Control).

In the interim, you can at least take solace in the fact that decks that run a card like TNN are generally unable to deal with it and will continue to suffer losses to Thoughtseize, Reanimate that. As long as the "strategy" is turn 1 mana dork #1 of 8 in an attempt to turn 2 TNN, they won't have mana up to hide their own loss-con with Brainstorm.

Edit: thinking more about Aether Vial, it could have also been pretty much the same card but just made into a land so it could just be Blood Moon'd, Wastelanded, etc while further compromising a deck's mana base to loss by color-screw.

[Stevestamopz]

I would hate to dig through years of Rosewater's blogs, but I mentioned in "Current State of Magic" that the answer I got from Rosewater himself when I queried on Mind Twist (because even years ago we all said "yeah, like.. just put it back in already") was simply "Lol cuz it's broken", possibly spelled differently.

WotC's main spot-light guy thinks it's too bonkers; can't say much for the other people there but I'd imagine anything ever deemed broken in the past is deemed broken now by default.

>anything ever deemed broken in the past is deemed broken now by default

And conversely, if it wasn't broken 10 years ago it ain't broken now: Show and Tell/Griselbrand etc.

Edit: Can we unban Nedleeds already? This thread blows without him.

[Gheizen64]

>anything ever deemed broken in the past is deemed broken now by default

And conversely, if it wasn't broken 10 years ago it ain't broken now: Show and Tell/Griselbrand etc.

Edit: Can we unban Nedleeds already? This thread blows without him.

I agree. This thread without him is as bad as Legacy without Top and BS still in.

[NeckBird]

>anything ever deemed broken in the past is deemed broken now by default

And conversely, if it wasn't broken 10 years ago it ain't broken now: Show and Tell/Griselbrand etc.

Edit: Can we unban Nedleeds already? This thread blows without him.

Lol

Turn 1:Swamp, Dark Ritual, Entomb, Exhume, Sire of Insanity

Yeah, Mind Twist sure is BROKEN IN HALF

[Fox]

Lol

Turn 1:Swamp, Dark Ritual, Entomb, Exhume, Sire of Insanity

Yeah, Mind Twist sure is BROKEN IN HALF

Naw, Sire is totally fine b/c it's Mind Twist'y on a creature - that's how you know it's healthy for magic.

[Dice_Box]

Only if I get an IOU for 3 months from now when you realize the metagame is going to look even more homogenous.

Well, I just put your pet deck back into the DTB, so I am going to go and call this IOU null and void.

[tescrin]

Well, I just put your pet deck back into the DTB

oh Dice... what happened to your scruples?!

If you put his pet deck in the DTB you have to everyone's decks into DTB.

[btm10]

The difference in Vintage is that they seem to be weighing heavily on one heavily inbred small metagame in the VSL. If the legacy league on MODO takes off it's a great thing, but I really hope that because we still have some large legacy tourney every month or two that any future decisions wouldn't rest solely on the Legacy MODO league

I know this is an old post, but the recent 5-0 list changes make it relevant again.

I was a strong proponent of using League results to inform (un)banning decisions because they represent such a large dataset, but even apart from the reduced utility of a nonrandom sample under WotC's new standard for releasing 5-0 decklists, there's another problem with using League results to inform yourself about the paper Legacy metagame: the low cost and high liquidity of MODO decks means that there's a lot more metagame churn online than there is in paper, which could lead to false conclusions about how healthy the metagame is.

[whocansay]

I agree. This thread without him is as bad as Legacy without Top and BS still in.

The hell? Why was he banned?