All B/R update speculation.

[Stevestamopz]

The hell? Why was he banned?

Krosan Midrange Tempo broke the format.

[Technics]

I know this thread is a cesspool of Ban the Cantrip Cartel, but I'm starting to get more and more on the Probe needs to go plan.

[Ronald Deuce]

I know this thread is a cesspool of Ban the Cantrip Cartel, but I'm starting to get more and more on the Probe needs to go plan.

Why? Genuinely curious, and not trying to ignite a shitstorm.

[Julian23]

I think Gitaxian Probe is the card players (at least on Twitter) are the most unhappy about. Talking to guys like Rodrigo, who even plays a deck that benefits from it, they also really want the card gone. The card takes away so much from the hidden information game, it's really sad. Magic is a game calculated risk taking and reading signals. Probe has taken away quite a lot from that every time it comes down early.

[Megadeus]

It's an unfun card that takes away a lot of skill, it's also fucking insane. Free storm, free card to delve, free pyromancer or mentor token, makes cabal therapy nuts, cheats deck construction by essentially giving you 56 card deck. I mean there's a reason it's banned in modern and restricted in vintage

[Whitefaces]

Agree with both of the above. Unfun and busted.

[Quasim0ff]

My two least liked cards in currently legacy are Ancient tomb as well as Gitaxian Probe.

Both have so little downside it's absurd, imo. There's a reason Probe is banned in modern and restricted in vintage. The card does soooo much for so little.

Ancient tomb is just unfun.

[MorphBerlin]

I woudnd't shred a tear over porbe, it's such an annoying card and really gives the slower reactive decks a big handicap

Also wouldn't be bad if Grixis Delver would take a small hit, its unfortunate that storm and other combo decks would take a hit too, but online G.Delver is just everywhere....

[Lemnear]

Not trying to get into a B&R clusterfuck again, but its quite amusing that there was the rant about discard being "unplayable thanks to brainstorm" for years and now we want to ban cards for making discard good.

With that being said, I sure see the issues Probe created with its printing and I think it took quite some time for people to realize. I however am not quite convinced that banning the card had an actual impact on the current metagame shape. It would not make Grixis/storm/etc much easier to beat as these decks can just slightly rebalance their cantrips/mana/disruption triangle accordingly. With Probes entry in the metagame, people once cut a land, a piece of disruption and 2 cantrips to fit in the Probes, a step which is easily reversible

[Whitefaces]

Not trying to get into a B&R clusterfuck again, but its quite amusing that there was the rant about discard being "unplayable thanks to brainstorm" for years and now we want to ban cards for making discard good.

With that being said, I sure see the issues Probe created with its printing and I think it took quite some time for people to realize. I however am not quite convinced that banning the card had an actual impact on the current metagame shape. It would not make Grixis/storm/etc much easier to beat as these decks can just slightly rebalance their cantrips/mana/disruption triangle accordingly. With Probes entry in the metagame, people once cut a land, a piece of disruption and 2 cantrips to fit in the Probes, a step which is easily reversible

It won't have a massive impact on the metagame shape, which I exactly why I think it would be good to go.

[Darkenslight]

Not trying to get into a B&R clusterfuck again, but its quite amusing that there was the rant about discard being "unplayable thanks to brainstorm" for years and now we want to ban cards for making discard good.

With that being said, I sure see the issues Probe created with its printing and I think it took quite some time for people to realize. I however am not quite convinced that banning the card had an actual impact on the current metagame shape. It would not make Grixis/storm/etc much easier to beat as these decks can just slightly rebalance their cantrips/mana/disruption triangle accordingly. With Probes entry in the metagame, people once cut a land, a piece of disruption and 2 cantrips to fit in the Probes, a step which is easily reversible

I mean, in Modern, it would just make the Death's Shadow decks even more busted, being free life-loss, an information gatherer and a cantrip[/i].

In Legacy, I can also see the reasons why it's being called for a banning, but I'm lerss certain that, should a banning be required, that is the right card to hit.

[Lemnear]

It won't have a massive impact on the metagame shape, which I exactly why I think it would be good to go.

If you have no intent to fix or shakeup a broken metagame, I see no compelling reason to touch it.

This looks a lot like a call for a ban put of boredom rather than the card or interactions being outright oppressive and in the same way people have targeted DRS a while ago. You can find reasons for plenty of cards to be banned, but "unfun" is really the worst one possible.

[Cave]

Ancient tomb is just unfun.

Well, if being unfun is a good reason to deserve a ban, then there is a long list of cards waiting in row to be banned before Ancient Tomb does.



Just sayin' , Ancient Tomb is currently featured in:
-A tier 1,5 combo deck (the same deck that runs Mister -Boom-I-Win), and nobody even plays the full set.
-A bunch of tier 2 brownish clunky piles of bad cards that get a top8 once in a while, e.g. Eldrazi, MUDs and Stax'es.

On the other hand, Gitaxian Probe is currently played too many tier 1's, and the fact that so many decks featuring full set of probes and 20-25 CMC 1 cards are constantly performing better than chalice decks should tell you something.

[Lemnear]

On the other hand, cardname is currently played too many tier 1's, and the fact that so many decks featuring full set of cardname and 20-25 CMC 1 cards are constantly performing better than chalice decks should tell you something.

Actually this is true for a shitload of cards starting from FoW to Delver, Ponder, DRS, Fetchlands, etc. so the numerical values are a slippery slope as a bannings for the reason of a card being "unfun".

[Megadeus]

If you think tomb is broken, you've never drawn two tombs against burn or delver and sat there and wondered why you bothered to show up with your non brainstorm deck after round 3

[Crimhead]

Not trying to get into a B&R clusterfuck again, but its quite amusing that there was the rant about discard being "unplayable thanks to brainstorm" for years and now we want to ban cards for making discard good.

I think there are always going to be malcontents complaining about the cards they don't like. C'est la vie.

[Whitefaces]

If you have no intent to fix or shakeup a broken metagame, I see no compelling reason to touch it.

This looks a lot like a call for a ban put of boredom rather than the card or interactions being outright oppressive and in the same way people have targeted DRS a while ago. You can find reasons for plenty of cards to be banned, but "unfun" is really the worst one possible.

You're putting words in my mouth. I said the card is unfun and busted, both of which is true. Which is why I'm not saying something similar for Chalice, which is unfun, but not busted like Probe.

[Cave]

Actually this is true for a shitload of cards starting from FoW to Delver, Ponder, DRS, Fetchlands, etc. so the numerical values are a slippery slope as a bannings for the reason of a card being "unfun".

Ye, ok, touché.
However, no matter in which state the metagame is, we've been used to have a Tier1 deck packing 6-10 blue fetchlands, 4 Brainstorms, 4 FOW's, some Ponders and some backup counterspells.
Let it be UW Stoneblade, or UWr Miracles, or BUG midrange, or BUG delver, whatever. Many decks have taken their turn in being *that* tier 1 blue deck. It's just...I don't know, part of Legacy as a format I guess. However, none of those decks was running GP. Probe was always a niche card, good for combo decks period.
Now that people are playing GP in tempo decks with great effect (value for therapy + cantrip + free pyromancer/prowess triggers + they know what to disrupt) looks like GP has become part of the "blue core" and it has lost it's niche role to just become a generally good filler card, and I don't really like that.

That being said, I don't really know if i'd be ok with Probe gone, as it'd probably hurt Storm more than Grixis Delver and Izzet Delver.

[Dice_Box]

Land's is a DTB next update, the Metagame is fine.

OK, being real. Ancient Tomb is unfun? Ancient Tomb? Really? Why, because it let's you cast Eldrazi and Chalice? So we should ban a card out of Stompy and take one of the few decks away thay preys upon the homogeneous nature of the format? Going to have to disagree with that one.

[MaximumC]

I know this thread is a cesspool of Ban the Cantrip Cartel, but I'm starting to get more and more on the Probe needs to go plan.

We restricted Probe in Vintage and it basically did nothing whatever to hinder the decks that used it.

So... just saying.