All B/R update speculation.

[Griselpuff]

https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/c...banunban_poll/

Made a poll for the upcoming B&R

[morgan_coke]

Nailed it.

How could a deck that consistently plays 4x Liliana main and has frequently played -X/-X board wipes and engineered plagues because of it's problems with decks like elves ever deal with that card?

The problem wasn't that Jund couldn't deal with TNN, it's that a better draw/search engine now had the same and better creatures, which pushed the format and other decks in directions that were hostile to Jund.

You can talk about conversion rates and stuff, but at the big GP's, top 32 is well over 80% cantrips on a regular basis. It's just a more consistent plan, and consistency wins out over time.

[Megadeus]

The problem wasn't that Jund couldn't deal with TNN, it's that a better draw/search engine now had the same and better creatures, which pushed the format and other decks in directions that were hostile to Jund.

You can talk about conversion rates and stuff, but at the big GP's, top 32 is well over 80% cantrips on a regular basis. It's just a more consistent plan, and consistency wins out over time.

This. It's either play cantrips and you can be one of the 28 decks that play them in top 32, or don't play cantrips and hope you are the token that people will scream and point to and say "SEE YOU CAN TOTALLY TOP 8 WITHOUT CANTRIPS LOOK AT THIS ONE DECK"

[maharis]

I think one thing that's pushed the power of the "cantrip cartel" over the top vs. other, less consistent plans is that the stuff the cartel plays is now just better than what you could get in other colors. Delver by itself pretty much invalidated the entire Zoo deck. 'Goyf killed Goblins. Leovold and TNN and Pyromancer beat pretty much every every other creature plan. DRS craps all over anyone trying to pull incremental or lategame grindy advantage from the graveyard. And all of those go in with the cantrips.

There's just a huge, huge difference between Mongoose/Werebear and Delver/Goyf.

I mean, when was the last time it was even remotely worth it to run Dark Ritual in a deck that wasn't combo? Hippie might not cut it anymore, but things like Liliana do. But the inconsistency isn't worth it anymore because every deck has to at least try to keep up with the cantrips.

This is the crux of the issue. The blue creature creep has been insane. Honestly at this point I would much rather just lose a bunch of those cards and at least make deckbuilding interesting. Cards like Strix and SCM and TNN just do everything. I'm not bothered by Delver because at least it forces some sort of restriction on deckbuilding, but watching a Jund player get waxed by Shardless because the blue player got to cascade a turn earlier into a brick wall for Goyf that drew another card was miserable.

[Dr_D]

https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/c...banunban_poll/

Made a poll for the upcoming B&R

Why on earth would you want Reddit's opinion on anything Legacy related, have you seen the threads they make on there?

[Megadeus]

This is the crux of the issue. The blue creature creep has been insane. Honestly at this point I would much rather just lose a bunch of those cards and at least make deckbuilding interesting. Cards like Strix and SCM and TNN just do everything. I'm not bothered by Delver because at least it forces some sort of restriction on deckbuilding, but watching a Jund player get waxed by Shardless because the blue player got to cascade a turn earlier into a brick wall for Goyf that drew another card was miserable.

I just hate that my opponents get to go Underground Sea into mana dork. It feels pretty stupid :'(

[maharis]

I just hate that my opponents get to go Underground Sea into mana dork. It feels pretty stupid :'(

I understand this sentiment but I don't think banning a non-blue card is going to solve the problem of too many blue decks. It's the SDT/Counterbalance problem all over again.

There's already a no-Deathrite Grixis deck putting up better results than any variation of Jund, Rock, Deadguy, Nic Fit, Maverick, Zoo, etc. It even has freakin Blood Moon in the sideboard.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetyp...is-36749#paper

I think DRS would feel less oppressive if it didn't always just lead into the same busted blue creatures and occasionally you saw one power out a Mirran Crusader or something.

[Dice_Box]

Why on earth would you want Reddit's opinion on anything Legacy related, have you seen the threads they make on there?

I wouldn't exactly say we are all that much better here. I have seen people here legitimately ask about unbanning Balance. Other times people told me unbanned Vise would destroy the format. I remember reading here about how Dragon was going to destroy the format as game after game went to time.

Opinions are just that, opinions. The only one that matters happens every 3 months and has nothing to do with us.

[Dr_D]

I wouldn't exactly say we are all that much better here. I have seen people here legitimately ask about unbanning Balance. Other times people told me unbanned Vise would destroy the format. I remember reading here about how Dragon was going to destroy the format as game after game went to time.

Opinions are just that, opinions. The only one that matters happens every 3 months and has nothing to do with us.

At least source users presumably know how to use a search bar.

[Ronald Deuce]

Unabashed Brainstorm fanboy here. Totally seconding the creature-creep argument. I remember someone's arguing that the Delver archetype always had a stronger hold on the format than Miracles did, and though I think Miracles was a much bigger problem, I agree that Delver really is homogenizing the metagame in concert with the cantrips. Though I don't agree that the cantrip engine alone homogenizes the metagame or that all Delver decks are the same, I think it's hard to argue that Delver-Cantrips decks are not extremely similar in construction and playstyle, and they're easily the biggest archetype in the format.

The major problem is that there isn't any comparable choice among aggro creatures: Delver synergizes with cantrips and countermagic, and it's the strongest attacker in the format.

The creep in creature power is by no means limited to Delver (Deathrite is probably the best creature in the game and Monastery Mentor effectively restructured Vintage), but I think Delver is the trend's most oppressive exemplar. It's the culmination of years of throttle-forward creature design, which would have been fine were it not for the fact that noncreatures were simultaneously pulled back and Delver just happened to be printed in the utility-and-permission color. If you want homogenization, it's "big dudes on the cheap," and according to MTGTop8, Legacy is the only place where aggro hasn't taken over the format—despite the existence of Delver, Deathrite, Tarmogoyf, Mentor, etc. Obviously, the increased power and utility of older noncreature spells and the absence of Vintage mana has allowed Legacy to strike a balance, but I find myself wondering how much longer that can continue.

I also find it interesting that Standard and Modern are so much more samey in spite of the greater variety of viable decks (in Modern, at least) and the much lesser degree of format penetration among most-played cards. I have no problem with linear creature-based strategies, but I don't need to throw down for duals to play that kind of Magic, and I don't want crazy combos and lockdowns to wither away. Not advocating for any bans, but I sincerely hope that the trend of upping creature power doesn't knock over everything but Value.dec strats in this format, too.

[taconaut]

I have no problem with linear creature-based strategies, but I don't need to throw down for duals to play that kind of Magic, and I don't want crazy combos and lockdowns to wither away. Not advocating for any bans, but I sincerely hope that the trend of upping creature power doesn't knock over everything but Value.dec strats in this format, too.

That's how I felt reading the comments lamenting the decline of Jund above - if people want to play five rounds of heads-up "ETB guy versus their removal" games, there is literally an entire format where you are basically not allowed to do anything else, and new siege rhinos appear every three months or so. I feel like Jund is more or less the least interesting thing to do with Legacy's card pool, so why not get that fix from Standard or even limited? That's not even a dig, recent draft sets have been pretty fun, and have meaningful decisions! I play them from time to time! But Legacy is where I want to do cool things.

[Crimhead]

Nailed it.

How could a deck that consistently plays 4x Liliana main and has frequently played -X/-X board wipes and engineered plagues because of it's problems with decks like elves ever deal with that card?

I'm saying TNN helped to make Shardless unquestionably superior to Jund. The cantrip engine hasn't gotten any better since when Maverick or Jund were king. Blue creatures have.

You can talk about conversion rates and stuff, but at the big GP's, top 32 is well over 80% cantrips on a regular basis. It's just a more consistent plan, and consistency wins out over time.

1. That 80% is spread out over more decks than the 20% of non-cantrip decks. In other words, you are completely missing my point. But sure, if we consider that 80% of the meta to be a single deck, it's clearly over-powered. If we look at individual decks, maybe not so much.
2. The point of conversion rates is to compare top 8 percentage to overall field percentage. Of course that doesn't apply to the 80% because we are looking at aggregate data from a huge range of different decks.

"SEE YOU CAN TOTALLY TOP 8 WITHOUT CANTRIPS LOOK AT THIS ONE DECK"

Nice touch with the caps.

I get you're exaggerating, and that's cool. We can agree there are far fewer (competitive) decks without cantrips than with. But this provides zero evidence that these decks are abjectly worse than anything from the plethora of playable cantrip decks.


If you want to claim cantrips are bad because the make for less diversity in terms of viable engines, that’s a fair compliant. If you want to further complain that those decks that happen to be well suited to not running cantrips are at a disadvantage, that simply doesn't follow.

[maharis]

That's how I felt reading the comments lamenting the decline of Jund above - if people want to play five rounds of heads-up "ETB guy versus their removal" games, there is literally an entire format where you are basically not allowed to do anything else, and new siege rhinos appear every three months or so. I feel like Jund is more or less the least interesting thing to do with Legacy's card pool, so why not get that fix from Standard or even limited? That's not even a dig, recent draft sets have been pretty fun, and have meaningful decisions! I play them from time to time! But Legacy is where I want to do cool things.

Because there are plenty of cool things to do that don't involve spamming a bunch of rituals. Off the top of my head here are some cards that I like playing that are only available in Legacy:

Wasteland
Crop Rotation
Sylvan Library
Green Sun's Zenith
Punishing Fire
Mother of Runes
Dark Depths
Cabal Therapy
Mox Diamond

No one is coming for your storm deck. This discussion is about fair decks in Legacy, which lots of people enjoy playing and some people dislike the continual narrowing of that archetype.

Finally: There are twice as many shared cards between Grixis Delver and ANT as there are between Grixis Delver and Jund. The difference is entirely within the cantrips. That's why cards like Chalice and Thalia exist at such a high level in the format. You want to play less of those games, you need to open up the format to more decks that don't take a giant leap off a cliff to Chalice.

[Drzed]

I love legacy. I love playing with cantrips, with chalice, with gsz decks, and kill via tendrills or whatever deck you can give me. There's some cards however that I think are a problem in the format. While I love my set of foil brainstorm the card should have been banned at the beginning of the format existence. Now the format is warped around it and to be fair I love it the way it is. The cards that are a real pain in the ass are imo TNN, griselbrand and gitaxian probe.
I lost countless games against really bad players simply by being killed with a topdeck-and-slam TNN and i won countless games I should have lost by slamming a TNN and blocking the best threat or killing the PW that resolved in the window within my counters. If TNN was white or another Color it would have probably been ok but not in blue. TNN is miserable for fair decks and it shouldn't exist. Griselbrand is the best creature u can cheat into play. You can SnT an emrakul into play with a couple counter in hand and your jund/midrange opponent can TS away your counter in his turn and than slam a lotv/edict and keep the game going; but if u show n tell a griselbrand you basically restart the game with 2-3 lands, a 14 cards hand and your "try to jund me out" smile on the face.
Gitaxian probe is not "broken" in the classic sense but it takes away the guessing game for such a low cost and watching your hand being raped by therapy with no skill is miserable (I'd love me some perfect hit tourach for B and 2 Life).

The first two cards are the most responsible for some decks disappearance as they are too hard to interact with or simply too good. Probe is just unfun and too cheap for what it brings to the table.

All in all I'm loving the format right now. Here in Italy (and Europe in general) we have a very high level legacy scene and some amazing deckbuilders. I have seen list that never arrive to the big public of decks that are considered tier 2-3 (nic-fit, blue moon, wbx and others) that are so well build and piloted that I wouldn't mind testing and bringing to a tournament in place of a proven t1 archetype.
Mtgo meta is so shitty and inbred i wouldn't touch it with a stick tho.

Sent from my MI 5 using Tapatalk

[Lord Seth]

If you want homogenization, it's "big dudes on the cheap," and according to MTGTop8, Legacy is the only place where aggro hasn't taken over the format—despite the existence of Delver, Deathrite, Tarmogoyf, Mentor, etc.

"Despite the existence of Delver, Deathrite, Tarmogoyf, Mentor, etc"? Of those, Tarmogoyf is the only one that actually works in aggro and even Tarmogoyf is more commonly played in midrange or tempo. If anything, those cards are a key reason aggro isn't a thing in Legacy; the best creatures in the format don't work well in an aggro deck.

Also, MTG Top 8's archetype classification of aggro is basically useless because they seem to consider aggro, control, and combo to be the only archetypes. So you end up with very un-aggro decks thrown into the aggro archetype because their actual archetypes aren't available as a category. About half of the decks it lists as "aggro" for Modern don't belong in that category at all.

[taconaut]

Because there are plenty of cool things to do that don't involve spamming a bunch of rituals. Off the top of my head here are some cards that I like playing that are only available in Legacy:

Wasteland
Crop Rotation
Sylvan Library
Green Sun's Zenith
Punishing Fire
Mother of Runes
Dark Depths
Cabal Therapy
Mox Diamond

No one is coming for your storm deck. This discussion is about fair decks in Legacy, which lots of people enjoy playing and some people dislike the continual narrowing of that archetype.

Finally: There are twice as many shared cards between Grixis Delver and ANT as there are between Grixis Delver and Jund. The difference is entirely within the cantrips. That's why cards like Chalice and Thalia exist at such a high level in the format. You want to play less of those games, you need to open up the format to more decks that don't take a giant leap off a cliff to Chalice.

Aren't all of those cards currently competitive? I agree that they're all sweet. I've had all of them played against me at the last two locals I played, at least, and certainly lost to them more than once.

What do you mean by "narrowing of the archetype?" That the number of viable fair decks is getting smaller, or those decks are becoming more similar?

How would you open up the format? Do you feel that banning a cantrip would even it up significantly? There's still pressure to have things like Force, because of unfair decks that don't use cantrips, and people will still need consistency engines.

Plus, I feel like Wizards is 100% on the fair side of this - it's only a matter of time before legacy becomes "who will be the king of valuetown" as they print more and more under-costed beaters with ETB effects and weenies with binary hate abilities.

[Zombie]

I'd love to try this abject mass murder, even if it was just a temporary alternate timeline:

Brainstorm, Griselbrand, Emrakul, Jin-Gitaxias (anyone remember that he exists at all?), True-Name Nemesis, Council's Judgment, Terminus, Entreat, Monastery Mentor, Leyline of Sanctity, Rest in Peace, Leovold.

[taconaut]

I'd love to try this abject mass murder, even if it was just a temporary alternate timeline:

Brainstorm, Griselbrand, Emrakul, Jin-Gitaxias (anyone remember that he exists at all?), True-Name Nemesis, Council's Judgment, Terminus, Entreat, Monastery Mentor, Leyline of Sanctity, Rest in Peace, Leovold.

Zombie, could you please show me on this doll where Miracles touched you?

[Mr. Safety]

Because there are plenty of cool things to do that don't involve spamming a bunch of rituals. Off the top of my head here are some cards that I like playing that are only available in Legacy:

Wasteland
Crop Rotation
Sylvan Library
Green Sun's Zenith
Punishing Fire
Mother of Runes
Dark Depths
Cabal Therapy
Mox Diamond

No one is coming for your storm deck. This discussion is about fair decks in Legacy, which lots of people enjoy playing and some people dislike the continual narrowing of that archetype.

Finally: There are twice as many shared cards between Grixis Delver and ANT as there are between Grixis Delver and Jund. The difference is entirely within the cantrips. That's why cards like Chalice and Thalia exist at such a high level in the format. You want to play less of those games, you need to open up the format to more decks that don't take a giant leap off a cliff to Chalice.

I really like this post, but I highlighted the part I think is the golden nugget.

[Crimhead]

What do you mean by "narrowing of the archetype?" That the number of viable fair decks is getting smaller, or those decks are becoming more similar?

I think that generally the complaint is that the fair decks are too similar (but I can't speak for anybody specifically. Right now the most competitive fair decks are:

Agressive/Tempo:

• Prowess
• Infect
• Grixis Tempo

Grindy/Midrange:

• Czech
• Noble Bug
• Stoneblade
• D&T

For combo we have:

• Elves
• Storm
• S&T
• Reanimator

For Stompy decks we have:

• Eldrazi
• Moon Stompy

And for "hard" control (decks that are light on potential threats) we have:

• Miracles
• Lands

This is a rough list (we will never agree on a list of all the competitive decks), but it looks to me like "fair" decks are at least as diverse as any other play-style. So I don’t have much sympathy.

Plus, I feel like Wizards is 100% on the fair side of this - it's only a matter of time before legacy becomes "who will be the king of valuetown" as they print more and more under-costed beaters with ETB effects and weenies with binary hate abilities.

I used to worry about this a lot. I still do, but less often. These days I worry more about a shift towards aggressive bans and "fun policing" and less about printings. But I have no desire to play "battle-cruiser" Legacy. If/when they start banning cards like Dark Ritual, LED, Tabernacle, etc, I'll probably abandon MTG altogether.