All B/R update speculation.

[UnderwaterGuy]

You're deluding yourself if you think this will actually happen, the antecedent or the consequent. I'm not sure why people all of a sudden wanted to ban really benign cards. They aren't format warping or terribly unfun, or combo cards, aren't ubiquitous or obnoxious enough by any metric that is used to ban cards. No, "boring" and "brainless" don't count either.

Have you been studying for your SAT's or something man?

[Darkenslight]

(WARNING: the foillowing post is not serious)

My new predictions:

Tarmogoyf is banned
Wild Nacatl is banned
Green Sun's Zenith is banned
Dryad Arbor is banned
Nettle Sentinel is banned

:p

[Sloshthedark]

is there some exact time for the announcement?

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Without rehashing things too much, there are other reasons why those decks haven't made a resurgence. CT had a hard time dealing with decks that actually had mana curves and some versions were pretty good against some decks but terrible against others. Not really where you want to be with a control deck in the format. And the CT lock isn't even that hard to deal with. It also shares a problem with other slow decks where it can draw games due to it's lack of a clock. IMHO, the archetype is just bad now.

Goblins isn't even disadvantaged against decks that play these cards. Things like Tin-Street Hooligan, Weirding, Perish, Sharpshooter, Fanatic are excellent against some or all of the Zenith/SFM decks. These decks, by design, are slow and can't make Goblins interact in ways that it doesn't excel at, i.e. the stack. Goblins isn't played because it was ridiculed to death for awhile as well as just being deceptively difficult to play. You can only watch so many people knee-jerk Matron into Piledrivers.

I don't think these are viable cards to ban. Zenith is far too slow and is a very limited tutor. Stoneforge Mystic is a creature. The requirements for creatures are extraordinarily high. It needs to be on the power level of Hermit Druid, which is a one-card combo. Stoneforge is nowhere near that power level. Banning these cards only reduces diversity of the format.

Wizards doesn't like one card combos (see Tinker).

Green Sun's Zenith tutors for a card and puts it into play. To a lesser extent, SFM tutors and 'cheats' a card into play.

That's my main gripe about those cards along with the Mothership's philosophy.

[Koby]

is there some exact time for the announcement?

9 PM Pacific time on Dec 19th at www.mtgdaily.com

[UnderwaterGuy]

nettle sentinel is banned

FINALLY THE OPPRESSIVE COMBO ELVES REIGN WILL BE PUT TO AN END

lowercase

[Zilla]

Wizards doesn't like one card combos

If that were true, you'd think they'd stop printing them.

[Octopusman]

I don't agree about color balance, because color balance is a good rubric for designing (or maintaining) a lively format with a lot of strategies, variation, stylistic choice, and working room for excellence in deck building and in play.

I still don't think Brainstorm should eat a ban tomorrow, and especially nor should anything else.

I hope they were not feeling too trigger-happy and gratuitous in the halls of decision. Tread softly Wizards ... you tread on a beloved format. :(

(Feel free to continue using the Modern project as target practice if you really want.)



Anyway ... it's all just placing bets now. The news will be in soon enough.

In case you missed it in the "pimp" thread: Altered by Rosewater himself!




I'm hoping for black vise! Comon baby!

[Koby]

With Black vise being *potentially* unbanned, I could see stock in Prosperity being increased. #BlueIsTooGood

[conboy31]

If mind twist comes off it feels like perfect for Nic Fit, which coincidentally can possibly fight through getting hit by a huge one with recurring nightmare and eternal witness.

[alderon666]

Black Vise is kinda scary at first. On the play against slow decks it's almost like a second set of Goblin Guides.

But I think it wouldn't be broken as it loses power VERY quickly. It would definetly make people try stuff like Stasis and Howling Mine... and probably fail.

Mind Twist is another one that would get people excited and then blow over. Legacy is about being mana effective. 3 mana just to match Hymm is just bad. But I could see this being used in control mirrors.

[Mr. Safety]

I will say this for Mind Twist though: it's a lot easier to splash than Hymn to Tourach. That may not be significant with Hymn being so much more efficient, but I thought I'd throw it out there.

[Dia_Bot]

While this is true I think thats no reason to keep it banned. But I'll guess we'll see how wotc thinks soon enough.

[Mr. Safety]

While this is true I think thats no reason to keep it banned. But I'll guess we'll see how wotc thinks soon enough.

I wasn't suggesting that it should stay banned...I was merely pointing out that it will get little play (most likely) when you can simply pay BB for Hymn. Decks may splash for it...but it's more expensive to get the same power level. I think it's safe to come off the list.

[Zilla]

I'd have been a lot more comfortable with Vise coming off the list if Mental Misstep were still legal. Even without Misstep though, it's probably fine.

[Dia_Bot]

I wasn't suggesting that it should stay banned...I was merely pointing out that it will get little play (most likely) when you can simply pay BB for Hymn. Decks may splash for it...but it's more expensive to get the same power level. I think it's safe to come off the list.

Ow k, yea I agree.

[dahcmai]

I think it was IBA I was talking to about Black Vise once. He was suggesting it come off and I just cringe when I think about how horrible that card was in the old days. I hated seeing even a single one. Two was just game over. Then the fabled dark ritual into three Black Vises being the power play was a horror story.

It's funny to think it's pretty safe now. Once you work out the numbers on how damaging it is too certain decks, it's kind of laughable how far it's fallen.


Mind Twist I've always found just annoying as hell. I never thought it was all that busted even in the old days. Not many people owned Black Lotuses either. That was it's real power, that and Ritual of course.

I'm really not sure they'd actually take Mind Twist off due to the point of it being very unfun to get hit by it early in. Probably would be the only reason Black Vise wouldn't come off the list either. Tabletop players tend to follow tournament rules despite the fact that they never play in them. When you're building pet decks and crappy newbie throw togethers, Black Vise and Mind Twist both are just flat not fun cards for someone to play against you.

They are perfectly fair by Legacy tournament standard anymore, but they may keep the newbie players in mind for those two. You have to agree, those two cards symbolize mean plays against newer players. It's half the reason Hymn to Tourach just about got the axe once.

I'm still betting that Black Vise is back since Blue really doesn't want to see that card often. It's a pain to play around even if it's easy to do. With everyone whining about blue as it is, it's probably time to toss the aggro decks a bone, even if it's a soft, chewy, lousy tasting one.

[Rizso]

Mindtwist is pretty much a splashable hymn that gets stopped by Gaddock Teeg. Afterall legacy doesnt have lotus and mana drains to fuel thoes huge t1 or t2 Mind Twist.

Would love to see Mind Twist geting unbanned.

[Pastorofmuppets]

I say they unban windfall. It encourages high-risk, high-reward combo. Wizards likes combo decks that take skill to play, right?
... Right? I mean, look at Storm combo before they printed Ad Nau-...
Never mind.
Herp derp ban Brainstorm and Force blue too good me like Zoo. Zoo strong deck need play strong creature no need think.

[Patrunkenphat7]

NOTHING needs to be banned, but I really hope they unban Survival; it would be very healthy in this metagame.

Banning Green Sun's Zenith is absurd, and I can't believe people are saying that. If Wizards did that... Well idk, that would be insane.