All B/R update speculation.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Have you considered snuff out simply may not be that good?

[Whitefaces]

#bansnuffout

[Fox]

Have you considered snuff out simply may not be that good?

It's a minor point, but these are things you have to consider when saying "ban DRS" - there is no other (fair) black turn one, 1-drop creature in legacy that has to be answered. Without DRS in the format, Snuff Out is gonna see a lot more play - and that whole boring early play pattern Megadeus described, it's all the same b/c Snuff Out is free, the mana disparity easily continues to exist. Is Snuff Out worse than DRS in say a combo matchup, absolutely - but the people who want DRS banned here are mostly annoyed by DRS + BS in 4c good stuff vs [insert fair strategy].

If you're on a non-blue fair deck post-DRS ban, what's your plan for getting out from under Wasteland/Daze/Delver? What creature do you cast to that survives (assuming it resolved) vs Snuff Out, thus punishing them for running that card? Do you think you can possibly take advantage of the fact that they paid 4 life, given that they are still on pace to turn 3 Gurmag reliably (i.e. not deviating from their game plan)? You might be sick of playing against 4c good stuff deck, but how is your life getting better when the Wasteland plan gets a massive situational boost?

[Claymore]

Ban Disciple of the Vault.

[Bryant Cook]

Snuff Out saw very little play pre-DRS. A banning wouldn't change anything.

[Fox]

Snuff Out saw very little play pre-DRS. A banning wouldn't change anything.

It's before I played legacy, but I would guess Goose was running rampant then. Assuming it was, I doubt it's returning to that level of play; and when you talk about free spells, you need pretty compelling reasons not to play them. We're still talking about minor points, but there's a lot of playable cards and the go to reason you wouldn't run them is often times b/c DRS exists.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Goose was most certainly loose back then, and had Knight cock blocking it.

[maharis]

I would be interested in seeing if there's actually any major long-term change in the kinds of decks that are popular if DRS is banned. I still fully believe that Grixis goodstuff will be the best deck because of it's raw efficiency and I honestly don't think it's that hard to play 2 Trops and still jam Leovold.

The deck to keep an eye on in the post-DRS world is Bant imo, since Hierarch can still support TNN and Stoneforge easily, but I think that K-Command + Therapy etc will hold that down, and Marsh Casualties and other sweepers like Deluge post-SB will be a major blowout.

RUG will be better but experienced and smart players will be able to assemble wins. RUG can have some really shit opening hands and TNN and Strix and Angler are still huge roadblocks vs. Goose. Honestly I think the RUG vs. DRS-deck matchup is closer if the RUG player leans on the side of more removal and just prioritizes killing Deathrite (I play 7 pieces MB plus a couple more side when I jam Canadian).

The stew that is cantrips + disruption + strix + snap + angler + tnn + your choice of YP or Leo honestly doesn't lose all that much from getting rid of DRS. DRS is just removal bait anyway so you can just Thoughtseize their removal instead.

The thing that is consolidating decks is that the removal in legacy is too efficient so your creatures at >1 CMC need to have innate protection or relevant ETB in order to be good. All the czech creatures are way better at that than alternatives. There's a reason you don't see Tarmogoyf or SFM too much anymore.

[Barook]

I would be interested in seeing if there's actually any major long-term change in the kinds of decks that are popular if DRS is banned. I still fully believe that Grixis goodstuff will be the best deck because of it's raw efficiency and I honestly don't think it's that hard to play 2 Trops and still jam Leovold.

I don't think a 4C build would be vey viable anymore without DRS. You get significantly weaker to mana denial, be it Wasteland or Blood Moon. Taxing effects would also hit harder without DRS.

[maharis]

I don't think a 4C build would be vey viable anymore without DRS. You get significantly weaker to mana denial, be it Wasteland or Blood Moon. Taxing effects would also hit harder without DRS.

But the cantrips mitigate that a whole lot. If you have 2 leos, 2 trops, 10 fetches and 8-14 cantrips (depending on how one defines Strix) you can just bury your splash cards until you really need them to lock up the game.

Ramping into a resolved Leo on t2 happens about as often as T2 Show and Tell, I don't think that's as big an issue as the fact that once you get past DRS all the other creatures up the curve essentially blank point removal. So you play point removal to kill DRS but it's not relevant against the other creatures. And, if DRS was banned, they could just thoughtseize your way to deal with Angler/TNN/Leovold, then snap-thoughtseize your other relevant spells....

I really think this is an issue of power in a certain shell and not just of one card. I play against czech pile a lot (like most of us here.) They often tap lands to cast their spells because I nuke DRS on sight. If the contention is that "all DRS decks tend to play out the same," which I agree with, that isn't going to go away when it's banned. There are just too many efficient and resilient tools in that deck's toolbox that don't reward color variation.

Edit: And none of this is to say necessarily that DRS shouldn't be banned, at this point I don't care. I'm just saying that there is no reason to expect a significant meta shift as a result. UNLESS they also unban Top and ban CB. But that ship has sailed.

[MorphBerlin]

Ramping into a resolved Leo on t2 happens about as often as T2 Show and Tell, I don't think that's as big an issue

Finally someone is saying this...

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

What pile are you playing that is stone cold to turn 2 leovold?

I mean show and tell puts in a Griselbrand and grunts wildly at least.

[MorphBerlin]

You mean me? I was not be sarcastic once I really think T2 Leo or TNN is not a problem and is just an hyperbole used in this debate.

I am playing 4C so I am defentily biased in this discussion, but it's really funny to me, how a 1/2 creature is a problem when my opps e.g. put indestructible 20/20s into play without even casting a spell, while having a bunch of 1 and 2 mana tutors for their deck and all the other shit that is going on in Legacy. I also can't realize how people think playing against gitaxian probe is fine but DRS is an offender.

Would be funny if everyone has to write their deck in the signature, I am not entierly sure but I see alot of Lands, Blood Moon etc players commenting here. Where coincidently DRS is a good way to fight their shenanigans.

[mistercakes]

I'd also prefer probe banned to DRS.

[Mr Miagi]

So much whineing about probe.. but where is it really played. Storm, grixis delver, infect. I don't see any grounds to ban this card. These three decks are not troublesome.

[Crimhead]

.
Would be funny if everyone has to write their deck in the signature, I am not entierly sure but I see alot of Lands, Blood Moon etc players commenting here. Where coincidently DRS is a good way to fight their shenanigans.

I play Lands almost exclusively (for almost 4 years now). I do not think DRS needs a ban, and I think the format is healthy and good. Just look at MTG Top8 with the Modo "data" filtered out and it's pretty hard to deny the diversity of this meta-game. In fact, I can't remember the meta ever looking this rich and varied:

http://www.mtgtop8.com/format?f=le&meta=72

Things to note:

• 42% of the meta consists of decks with a 3-4% share.
• No deck is above 8%.
• A huge variety of unique decks are relevant. Infect, Burn, D&T, Eldrazi, Dragon Stompy, Elves, Lands, Maverick, Miracles, and more.

So much whineing about probe.. but where is it really played. Storm, grixis delver, infect. I don't see any grounds to ban this card. These three decks are not troublesome.

Manaless Dredge!

[Gheizen64]

Whatever they ban, it must not be blue. Cause blue is legacy.

[Crimhead]

Whatever they ban, it must not be blue. Cause blue is legacy.

Whatever they unban...


There seems to be a mentality that a Legacy ban is imminent. Yes, WotC are marketing eternal more aggressively, and yes, the did ban Top. That doesn't mean they plan to issue frequent "shake-up" bans or that they are going to axe everybody's pet hate cards.

[Mr. Safety]

Here's my two cents, for whatever it's worth: wotc won't ban DRS because Wasteland gets better in the format without it, and wotc hates land destruction, citing it as one of the mechanics that makes for un-fun game experiences. If Czech pile had to rely on its lands harder to splash green it becomes fairly easy for Wasteland to become more effective (not saying it shuts the deck down.) I don't think anybody will seriously start using Noble Hierarch or Birds of Paradise to replace DRS, maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think so. For this reason (keeping DRS in the format) is why Mind Twist won't be unbanned, simply because it allows the acceleration into a Hymn for 3+ early enough to matter without expending too many resources to get there (Dark Ritual, etc.) I mention Mind Twist because its one of the recurring cards brought up for unbanning. I actually think the format is pretty good right now. I lament the loss of traditional agro like Zoo, or more tribal deck prevalence like gobbos/merfolk, but that's just nostalgia.

[taconaut]

I also can't realize how people think playing against gitaxian probe is fine but DRS is an offender.

Gitaxian Probe is fine. But so is Deathrite Shaman (and so was Top, if you ask me, but that ship has sailed).

Also, it surprises me that you care about it as a Czech player - so you get probed, and they see...a bunch of goodstuff value? Like, what information asymmetry are you trying to establish?