All B/R update speculation.

[jandax]

What's Modern?

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[Mr. Safety]

What's Modern?

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A burgeoning format that provides magical opportunities in communities where Legacy is a rarity, at the least allowing for powerful older cards. I believe an obligatory 'fuck standard' is appropriate here. How have you been jandax?

How much do people think Eternal Weekend will inform wotc about future unbannings/bannings for Legacy? Do you think wotc treats it with more weight than the standardized data that gets shared (ie mtgtop8.com etc.)?

[Crimhead]

Things I find odd:
* "Don't bring your opinion in here, this is fact based !1!!"
-> This is literally an opinion thread. It's a thread specifically for people to vent their frustrations with obnoxious cards and propose that they either should be banned, or are ban worthy. Get over it?

This thread is (according to its title) for speculation; not baseless wishing and ranting.

There is a difference between saying "IMO card x is too powerful and therefore could/should being baned" vs whining that "IMO card x is not very much fun so WotC please ban it".

Note that one of these statements can lead to reasonable conversation while the other is a total dead end.

[Lemnear]

There is a difference between saying "IMO card x is too powerful and therefore could/should being baned" vs whining that "IMO card x is not very much fun so WotC please ban it".

I think the mayor difference is that one party is usually beating around the bush with shallow arguments rather than plain stating "I dislike what the card does for personal reasons".

In my opinion, thats the crucial point where discussions get derailed. It's a chore to keep refering to performance & metagame data if these are getting trashed by small-sample-size anecdotes of local metas and strong opinions

[Hanni]

Why does there always have to be something on the chopping block, though? Everytime something does get banned, people immediately jump on to the next thing and whine for a ban. If the next best thing were to keep getting banned, we'd just end up with Modern. Legacy is the place to play with busted cards, without being quite as expensive or busted as Vintage.

Honestly, I feel like the format is in a perfect place right now, and it has continued to be diverse and has continuosly been rotating since Top got banned. 4c midrange goodstuff piles may be what is popular right now, but those decks have some big weaknesses. Once people adjust, we'll see the format rotate yet again.

Wait a minute... I brought logic into this thread. My bad, sorry guys, I'll see my way out now. Also, #bangoblinlackey

[H]

Wait a minute... I brought logic into this thread. My bad, sorry guys, I'll see my way out now. Also, #bangoblinlackey

How dare you!



<Looks at the poll at the top of the thread, sees Tarmogoyf as the second leading candidate for banning.>



<Remembers why it's a waste of time to post in this thread.>

[Dice_Box]

To the question, why does something always have to be on the block, that question is rather easy to answer. Humans are programmed to know and notice negatives. Mostly because negatives are dangerous.

My psychology professor summed it up like this:
If I tell you that we have 3 months worth of food in the house you will pay me little attention. It's not an issue you need to solve. If I tell you there is 3 days worth of food your viewpoint shifts. Now you have an issue you have to fix. One is not a threat, the other is.

When it comes to unbanning cards, well they aren't impacting us now, they are the 3 months. But cards we see every week are things we notice and things we attach negative feelings upon. "Shit, lost to that unfair card again". That's the 3 days.

[Mr Miagi]

There were times when Tarmogoyf was opressive. Ban worthy at the time? Probabbly not, but still, it was highly opressive. Only thing that at the time could effectively remove Tarmogoyf were swords, smother, some niche decks played snuff out and that was it from the removal aspect. So before you all start loling at Tarmo, you should know that not many things could kill him at the time...

Now I'll see my self out of this topic before I get cancer

[iOWN]

There were times when Tarmogoyf was opressive. Ban worthy at the time? Probabbly not, but still, it was highly opressive. Only thing that at the time could effectively remove Tarmogoyf were swords, smother, some niche decks played snuff out and that was it from the removal aspect. So before you all start loling at Tarmo, you should know that not many things could kill him at the time...

Now I'll see my self out of this topic before I get cancer

When Tarmogoyf was released, every other deck splashed green just so it could have Goyf beatdown as a backup strategy. I was surprised to see how much the power level of creatures has risen since then...

[Mr Miagi]

When Tarmogoyf was released, every other deck splashed green just so it could have Goyf beatdown as a backup strategy. I was surprised to see how much the power level of creatures has risen since then...

I know, I lived through the era of merfolk and goblins splashing for him

[Zombie]

I know, I lived through the era of merfolk and goblins splashing for him

They even did that in Standard where Goyf otherwise wasn't a big player. Fish+Goyf+Chameleon Colossus = "Full Fat Merfolk".

[Hanni]

Before ban Tarmogoyf, it was ban Goblin Lackey. I mean seriously, the ban Lackey crowd was as large and as vocal as the ban Brainstorm crew is these days.

[morgan_coke]

One reason people pushed for banning Tarmogoyf was that future creatures would have to be incredibly broken to compete with him, and this would eventually destroy the format.

Can't really argue with that part of it right now.

Also, I would say Brainstorm is different from say, Lackey, in that Lackey went in only one deck. Brainstorm is in 60%+ of the format.

[Lemnear]

There were times when Tarmogoyf was opressive. Ban worthy at the time? Probabbly not, but still, it was highly opressive.

Tarmogoyf was the Deathrite Shaman of its time:

In dozens of decks with various strategies, used because he did what he does better than the rest and easy to splash for in addition.

Being best-in-slot was never a reason to ban anything. It it was, we would constantly (and i quote myself) "chop the hydras head", waiting until the next best-in-slot establishes and then repeat.

[Lemnear]

ETERNAL WEEKEND

Legacy Top 8:

6/8 decks had 4x DRS
5/8 decks had 4x Delver
4/8 decks had 4x Probe
5/8 decks played Hymn/Therapy + FoW
5/8 decks played Daze + FoW
6/8 decks played Wasteland

Do we have a problem with actual diversity atm?

[wcm8]

ETERNAL WEEKEND

Legacy Top 8:

6/8 decks had 4x DRS
5/8 decks had 4x Delver
4/8 decks had 4x Probe
5/8 decks played Hymn/Therapy + FoW
5/8 decks played Daze + FoW
6/8 decks played Wasteland

Do we have a problem with actual diversity atm?

In some ways, yes. I think this current streamlining of Legacy can be largely traced back to the banning of Sensei's Divining Top and the loss of UWr Miracles as a Tier 1 strategy.

There's plenty of diversity in Legacy in terms of available options, but 11 rounds of Swiss are going to favor the kind of decks that are most consistent round after round. And that's inevitably going to be some form of Blue-based aggro-control. In a shorter tournament, Tier 2 strategies have a much better chance of spiking the event despite their lack of 4x Brainstorm/Ponder/FoW/DRS/[etc.].

UWx Stoneblade decks are *okay*, but not really an adequate replacement for Miracles. DRS-based Blue decks are simply better at playing the aggro-control role. Of course you can still play a form of UWr Miracles without Top, but it's nowhere near as powerful as it once was.

I totally understand the justification for banning SDT, but perhaps it was the wrong card to hit. Maybe Terminus would have been the better choice? Or perhaps Counterbalance? As oppressive as Miracles was, the format was in a pretty good revolving state in terms of which decks were preying on each other. I think bringing back SDT and banning another component of Miracles in its place could help restore more balance and variety to the format.

[Megadeus]

ETERNAL WEEKEND

Legacy Top 8:

6/8 decks had 4x DRS
5/8 decks had 4x Delver
4/8 decks had 4x Probe
5/8 decks played Hymn/Therapy + FoW
5/8 decks played Daze + FoW
6/8 decks played Wasteland

Do we have a problem with actual diversity atm?

Been saying this for awhile. There's plenty of decks with different names, but in reality it's just the cantrips plus deathrite with different kill conditions.

[Barook]

ETERNAL WEEKEND

Legacy Top 8:

6/8 decks had 4x DRS
5/8 decks had 4x Delver
4/8 decks had 4x Probe
5/8 decks played Hymn/Therapy + FoW
5/8 decks played Daze + FoW
6/8 decks played Wasteland

Do we have a problem with actual diversity atm?

Why not mention the cantrips as well?

7/8 decks had 4x Brainstorm
6/8 decks had 4x Ponder (7/8 if you count 3+ Ponder)

There definitely is a problem with diversity.

In some ways, yes. I think this current streamlining of Legacy can be largely traced back to the banning of Sensei's Divining Top and the loss of UWr Miracles as a Tier 1 strategy.

There's plenty of diversity in Legacy in terms of available options, but 11 rounds of Swiss are going to favor the kind of decks that are most consistent round after round. And that's inevitably going to be some form of Blue-based aggro-control. In a shorter tournament, Tier 2 strategies have a much better chance of spiking the event despite their lack of 4x Brainstorm/Ponder/FoW/DRS/[etc.].

UWx Stoneblade decks are *okay*, but not really an adequate replacement for Miracles. DRS-based Blue decks are simply better at playing the aggro-control role. Of course you can still play a form of UWr Miracles without Top, but it's nowhere near as powerful as it once was.

I totally understand the justification for banning SDT, but perhaps it was the wrong card to hit. Maybe Terminus would have been the better choice? Or perhaps Counterbalance? As oppressive as Miracles was, the format was in a pretty good revolving state in terms of which decks were preying on each other. I think bringing back SDT and banning another component of Miracles in its place could help restore more balance and variety to the format.

You don't cure cancer with AIDS. SDT was the correct ban, or did you forget its 3 years of dominance?

The format's problem is that doesn't ban enough when it's necessary. We wouldn't have hundreds of pages in the B&R thread discussing Brainstorm if R&D did its fucking job and banned the quality cantrips like they did in Vintage and Modern. For the love of God, it took a sign before WotC's headquarter for R&D to get their heads out of their asses.

[lavafrogg]

Been saying this for awhile. There's plenty of decks with different names, but in reality it's just the cantrips plus deathrite with different kill conditions.

Isn’t it just cantrips+anything at this point?

The cantrip shell has been proven to be the “best” thing you can be playing in legacy and has been for some time now. SDT was the correct ban because it made the cantrip shell oppressive to the point of not being fun; mostly the counterbalance interaction was invalidating complete sections of the format.

They just need to print a few more “anti cantrip” and “anti blue” cards that do not fit in a blue shell and are costed aggressively enough to see play.

I am sure that there are enough threads around the internet that are filled with hypothetical threads on what cards could see print. I personally think that lowering the power of the blue “shell” would be better than raising the power of other decks.

On another note... we need a better sideboard card to hate on blue/cantrips. There is nothing anyone can do to hate against a cantrip deck sans Choke. Pretty much every other archetype has cards that can be played in a sideboard to shut it down and ever since blue decks lost threshold creatures, they have pretty much never had to worry about the opposing sideboard.

[iOWN]

To me it doesn't seem like the problem is "cantrips + DRS" or "cantrips + anything for that matter", the deck that dominated this tournament is "cantrips + most efficient creatures + best general disruption/protection". Has that ever not been the most consistent strategy in the history of Legacy?