View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

Voters
192. You may not vote on this poll
  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #18041
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    I mean, it's fine to avoid a quality analysis of slots like Mindtwist vs Nissa vs Natural Order in Elves for example, but avoiding even a single sentence on all the Legacy decks with large, permanent mana access and trying to make a point based on one-shot mana accelerants is awkward. Bob knows better, so that I agree with the other members speculation here, that this and other passages of the article are just there to cloak the real intent.
    I don't think the potential for blowout Mind Twists are better than playing many of the other big haymakers available to these decks. Doesn't affect things on board, can't control the draw step, big sorcery-speed investment in a format where Force is in 60% of decks, etc. I don't think there's a way that Elves could play a Twist for >2 on turn 2 anyway, and turn 3 discard 3+ is pretty fair considering what else Elves could be doing that turn or what other decks do at that time.

    An artifact deck could go like:

    Ancient Tomb -> Grim Monolith
    Urborg -> twist for 5

    But isn't just playing Reality Smasher there better? It's as good as a Hymn if they remove it, and if they don't the game is just over in 4 turns.

    That's not to say there can't be a good Mind Twist deck but that deck would have to be insane to be better than what's available now.

  2. #18042
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    We played legacy unleashed tournament with 10 teams I believe with twist being legal and my teammates played twist elves. Basically was just normal elves with a mind Twist in the sideboard because why not. Elves wouldn't even want the card. It's maybe a Nic Fit card, but idk
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
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    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

  3. #18043
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitefaces View Post
    Is there a point where a player could be banned from a format?

    Bob's been maliciously making t8s on his crusade against Deathrite Shaman, he already did it with Treasure Cruise, and people enjoyed playing with that card. Not to mention spearheading the subvert campaign for CFB to spike Pirate cards as a user above mentioned.

    I wonder what's next?
    Yeah, there's never been a player-specific ban before, but I think banning Bob would ultimately be a good thing for the format. I am tired of malicious top 8s and it is time to put an end to the practice.

  4. #18044
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I honestly have no clue if you're being serious or not. And I still don't really understand what you're even getting at
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

  5. #18045
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I am tired of malicious top 8s and it is time to put an end to the practice.
    I can't really not sig this.
    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    If you diversified your cantrips, a chalice wouldn't be a liability.
    Quote Originally Posted by chunderbucket View Post
    You want interesting, nonbinary games? Don't make your deck so reliant on cantrips, like pretty much every above deck.
    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I am tired of malicious top 8s and it is time to put an end to the practice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Almost everyone plays decks that are strictly worse 75s than the top decks - which most people could sleeve up if they wanted to, they just elected not to.

  6. #18046
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitefaces View Post
    Is there a point where a player could be banned from a format?

    Bob's been maliciously making t8s on his crusade against Deathrite Shaman, he already did it with Treasure Cruise, and people enjoyed playing with that card. Not to mention spearheading the subvert campaign for CFB to spike Pirate cards as a user above mentioned.

    I wonder what's next?
    I still have to admit that the whole thing was one hell of a PR gag and that people managed to spike the price for the cards as a result was jusz the icing. Of course we ended up with CFB making quite a dime with the hype.

    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by maharis View Post
    I don't think the potential for blowout Mind Twists are better than playing many of the other big haymakers available to these decks. Doesn't affect things on board, can't control the draw step, big sorcery-speed investment in a format where Force is in 60% of decks, etc. I don't think there's a way that Elves could play a Twist for >2 on turn 2 anyway, and turn 3 discard 3+ is pretty fair considering what else Elves could be doing that turn or what other decks do at that time.

    An artifact deck could go like:

    Ancient Tomb -> Grim Monolith
    Urborg -> twist for 5

    But isn't just playing Reality Smasher there better? It's as good as a Hymn if they remove it, and if they don't the game is just over in 4 turns.

    That's not to say there can't be a good Mind Twist deck but that deck would have to be insane to be better than what's available now.
    Elves is build to have 3+ mana by turn 2, just saying. As i mentioned before, there is no need for a quality analysis here or in the article, but deeming Elves & Co not worth mentioning while making a fuzz about Dark Ritual, isn't what I expect from any honest take on Mindtwist
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Lemnear sounds harsh at times, but he means well. Or to destroy, but that's when he starts rapping.

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  7. #18047
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    I honestly have no clue if you're being serious or not. And I still don't really understand what you're even getting at
    That's the whole point, the discourse in this thread is so poor that it no longer distinguishable if someone is serious or not.
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  8. #18048
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    Elves is build to have 3+ mana by turn 2, just saying. As i mentioned before, there is no need for a quality analysis here or in the article, but deeming Elves & Co not worth mentioning while making a fuzz about Dark Ritual, isn't what I expect from any honest take on Mindtwist
    Yeah, but there's no way to cast Mind Twist for X>2 on turn 2 that I can think of barring ridiculous lines that would just win anyway like Birchlore, double Sentinel, Heritage Druid, Cradle.

    You are correct about the Dark Ritual point though, if we are considering a card you'd have to look for new tech. Personally, I don't think there's a deck that wants a super-Hymn with their tons of available mana T2 more than, like, a bunch of other cards. Other than for the novelty, of course.

  9. #18049
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by maharis View Post
    Yeah, but there's no way to cast Mind Twist for X>2 on turn 2 that I can think of barring ridiculous lines that would just win anyway like Birchlore, double Sentinel, Heritage Druid, Cradle.

    You are correct about the Dark Ritual point though, if we are considering a card you'd have to look for new tech. Personally, I don't think there's a deck that wants a super-Hymn with their tons of available mana T2 more than, like, a bunch of other cards. Other than for the novelty, of course.
    That's the "quality discussion" i was talking about. There is no need for us or Bob to ponder about if Twist is stronger than Natural Order in Elves at this point. I am just convinced such discussion should not start with Ritual and end with Monolith
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Lemnear sounds harsh at times, but he means well. Or to destroy, but that's when he starts rapping.

    Architect by day, rapstar by night. He's pretty much the German Hannah Montana. Sometimes he even comes in like a wrecking ball.

  10. #18050

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I think the best place to use Mind Twist would be in decks that run Tomb/Diamond/Mana artifacts, or in control decks as a way to pull irreversibly ahead, where you're not casting it early, you're casting it mid-game to empty their hand and start Jace/Sealing your way to victory.

  11. #18051
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    This could be a ploy by Bob to break Squirrel Nest, CFB could go nuts on the pricing of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by LegacyIsAnEternalFormat View Post
    The power of blue is overrated...I personally play Jund and I consistently top 4 FNMs with it.

  12. #18052

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    It's a "Conspiracy," see what I did there? But seriously, the flavor text on this card I like.

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    Jesus H Cardsheet died for your NFC sins.

  13. #18053
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitefaces View Post
    This could be a ploy by Bob to break Squirrel Nest, CFB could go nuts on the pricing of it.
    I see what you did here
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Lemnear sounds harsh at times, but he means well. Or to destroy, but that's when he starts rapping.

    Architect by day, rapstar by night. He's pretty much the German Hannah Montana. Sometimes he even comes in like a wrecking ball.

  14. #18054

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    The DC SCG Legacy Open had a T8 that was theoretically diverse, but can be broken down to 6 Xerox/Blue Shell, 2 Chalice.

    Out of the top 32 decks I saw, exactly one didn't have either Xerox or Chalice in it.

  15. #18055

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by morgan_coke View Post
    The DC SCG Legacy Open had a T8 that was theoretically diverse, but can be broken down to 6 Xerox/Blue Shell, 2 Chalice.

    Out of the top 32 decks I saw, exactly one didn't have either Xerox or Chalice in it.
    Except for Lands, DnT, Elves, Maverick, Turbo Depths, and Reanimator... But don't let things like that get in the way of a good argument.

  16. #18056

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Hahah..


    Anyway just one thing about the Xerox decks, that is a shell like many others that are possible in legacy, it simply is the most efficient, but it also holds combo, control, midrange decks inside that shell depending on how it is built. Some have a problem with that, I'm pretty ok as long as it isn't the only strategy. Having "shells" is a easier way to make a deck competitive, legacy has loam package, aether vial package, xerox and stompy. Its just a way to build around some proven strategy, because legacy is all about efficiency, and these shells give either speed, consistency, tempo or advantage. Some decks do run without any of those, but they are few.

  17. #18057
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Starcity wtf naming conventions strike again. Was scratching my head over wtf. "Punishing Abzan" even was. Is code for 4c Loam it seems.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear
    (On Innistrad)
    Yeah, an insanely powerful block which put the "derp!" factor in Legacy completely over the top.

  18. #18058

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sansian View Post
    Except for Lands, DnT, Elves, Maverick, Turbo Depths, and Reanimator... But don't let things like that get in the way of a good argument.
    The Lands in the T8 ran Chalice. Many builds of Lands do. DnT doesn't run Chalice itself, but an entire deck full of the same principle, including a creature that has the same effect. Elves - got me there, I didn't see it in the top 32, my bad. Maverick - that was the deck I was talking about. Turbo Depths and Reanimator both run the Blue Shell - cantrips and Force.

    But yes, you're right, only 16 of the decks in the top 32 ran Blue Shell/Xerox + Delver, and another 10 or so ran the blue shell, with most of the rest packing chalice, but there were two whole decks with neither, so things are fine.

  19. #18059
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by morgan_coke View Post
    The Lands in the T8 ran Chalice. Many builds of Lands do. DnT doesn't run Chalice itself, but an entire deck full of the same principle, including a creature that has the same effect. Elves - got me there, I didn't see it in the top 32, my bad. Maverick - that was the deck I was talking about. Turbo Depths and Reanimator both run the Blue Shell - cantrips and Force.

    But yes, you're right, only 16 of the decks in the top 32 ran Blue Shell/Xerox + Delver, and another 10 or so ran the blue shell, with most of the rest packing chalice, but there were two whole decks with neither, so things are fine.
    Lands Top 8? Are you looking at the Classic or the Open?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear
    (On Innistrad)
    Yeah, an insanely powerful block which put the "derp!" factor in Legacy completely over the top.

  20. #18060
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    The classic has to be taken with a grain of salt since it was essentially a tourney of losers who didn't make day 2 in the open
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

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