View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

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  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #18081
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Look it’s [current year] and it’s banned in modern for a reason. Without mental misstep, it’s a menace.
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  2. #18082
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I yearn for the days of AIR. I just want to seething song a Turn 1 Deus
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  3. #18083

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    All I can say is that I'm so glad that SDT was banned. The Legacy metagame, even though it's still predominantly blue, is still better and more diverse than it was with Miracles running the format. People still play Miracles, but now it's Just Another Decent Blue deck instead of being the best blue deck in the format by far.

    And paper tournaments are SO much faster. No more waiting for 6-7 Miracles players to finish their matches EVERY SINGLE ROUND. Now we actually finish rounds in a big tournaments with time to spare!
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  4. #18084
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    I yearn for the days of AIR. I just want to seething song a Turn 1 Deus
    + a million

    AIR from seven year extended is still my favorite deck of all time.

  5. #18085
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew View Post
    + a million

    AIR from seven year extended is still my favorite deck of all time.
    If we go that route, make the resilient, layered rube goldberg combo decks from EDH viable in Legacy :D

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  6. #18086

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGB View Post
    All I can say is that I'm so glad that SDT was banned. The Legacy metagame, even though it's still predominantly blue, is still better and more diverse than it was with Miracles running the format. People still play Miracles, but now it's Just Another Decent Blue deck instead of being the best blue deck in the format by far.
    I disagree with top being the right ban, but I do think Legacy is diverse at the moment (though it was before the top banning, too).

    Quote Originally Posted by MGB View Post
    And paper tournaments are SO much faster. No more waiting for 6-7 Miracles players to finish their matches EVERY SINGLE ROUND. Now we actually finish rounds in a big tournaments with time to spare!
    I think this is inaccurate, or at least overstated. I have not perceived any real difference in round length post-miracles banning, and certainly haven't encountered rounds where no one goes to time (one match in turns is enough to delay the round, miracles or not, which is why I always found this accusation against miracles in particular dubious).

  7. #18087
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    The only major event that I've played in since Top got banned was Eternal Weekend, but I did not notice a difference in round times. Every round went about 15 minutes over, which felt about the same as when Top was legal. I have no doubt that less rounds went to time, but it only takes one.
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  8. #18088
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I've not noticed any change in round turnover either, it's confirmation bias.
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    The power of blue is overrated...I personally play Jund and I consistently top 4 FNMs with it.

  9. #18089
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Rounds are always going to go to time, certainly as long as people are rewarded for playing piles of battlefield kill spells and discard. As far as U/W do-nothing decks go, CB is still the better ban than SDT - but it should now be more readily apparent that any kind of opponent (combo, control, or aggro) that they should generally concede to double Library of Alexandria, once assembled (JTMS + Azcanta), whereas CB generates dumb gamestates of "I can still topdeck Decay, and pretend it'll matter against ever worsening odds each time Decay topdeck doesn't come."

    Rounds going to time is generally the fault of Hymn (Shardless/Czech) and Snapcaster (U/W)....still only takes 1 game to delay rounds (or a long judge call, potentially including an appeal); this isn't a problem you can really ban away by hitting the main culprits. The only thing that made SDT a reasonable ban on the grounds of delaying rounds was the ethical issue of floating a win with ETA endlessly to win g1 and force a draw g2 - this again only worked b/c the opponent is locked out by CB.

    Since the glaring ethical issue has been dealt with, the highest yield way to reduce round times is probably a policy of running more events at comp REL or defining a cap beyond which comp REL must be enforced (like say 17+)...at least then there will be a higher chance that both players and judges will be better equipped to quickly resolve issues and cut down on extension times. Not that most legacy players really care, but that policy could instead be to double PW points for any event past 'x' size where comp REL was enforced.

  10. #18090
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    The only thing that made SDT a reasonable ban on the grounds of delaying rounds was the ethical issue of floating a win with ETA endlessly to win g1 and force a draw g2 - this again only worked b/c the opponent is locked out by CB.
    Straight up: No

    CB is no lock without a reusable tool to manipulate the top of your deck, which is part of the reason they chopped SDT instead of CB. The main issue with SDT wasn't floating wincons or extending your hand by essentially 3 cards, but the whole...

    EoT Top, look at top 3 cards, tank, rearange, put the 3 cards back, untap, draw, activate Top, look at top 3 cards, tank, rearange, put the 3 cards back, drop fetch, crack fetch, search for land, (pile) shuffle, activate Top, look at top 3 cards, tank, rearange, put the 3 cards back, pass...

    ... which is repeditive and legal way of easily stalling 5min out of every turn.
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  11. #18091
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    Straight up: No

    CB is no lock without a reusable tool to manipulate the top of your deck, which is part of the reason they chopped SDT instead of CB. The main issue with SDT wasn't floating wincons or extending your hand by essentially 3 cards, but the whole...

    EoT Top, look at top 3 cards, tank, rearange, put the 3 cards back, untap, draw, activate Top, look at top 3 cards, tank, rearange, put the 3 cards back, drop fetch, crack fetch, search for land, (pile) shuffle, activate Top, look at top 3 cards, tank, rearange, put the 3 cards back, pass...

    ... which is repeditive and legal way of easily stalling 5min out of every turn.
    So here's the thing about CB and SDT, one of the cards is broken (CB) and the other is the enabler (SDT). The power of those two is way too high together and there was a very real ethical problem of floating wincons to intentionally go to time forcing a 1-0-1 result. There is no other deck that went to time spamming SDT activations as a systemic problem, because you don't have much reason to unless you're sitting behind CB. Now when you talk about which one do you ban, the only reason to hit SDT over CB is ethics b/c it's clearly not the one that needs banned on power level grounds.

    In the greater scheme of legacy, discard in non-combo decks and decks sitting behind battefield kill spells are the main culprits of rounds going past time b/c the intent of these cards is to deliberately delay games without providing intent to win in a timely fashion. SDT by itself (no CB) punishes discard as a strategy - this shortens games; you have to take that into account as well with SDT's design. It's not a well-designed card, but like delve spells, it disincentives Hymn bullcrap.

    Now it was possible to play like a total scumbag and deliberately try to waste time with completely unnecessary SDT activations, but you still have to actually play to win at least one game to get rewarded for that kind of crap and also dodge slow play calls - the thing is though, that's not a recipe for success unless you can hide behind the infinite turns provided by Counterbalance. Floating wincons with the impunity only a card like CB can provide made that ethical problem a winning strategy going into any event - if banning SDT only stopped one thing, it was this: rewarding players for deliberately pursuing a [winning] strategy of forcing rounds to go over time.
    Last edited by Fox; 11-07-2017 at 12:23 PM.

  12. #18092
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I miss Painter.
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  13. #18093
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    My experience with legacy is that round times have always taken a while, with or without top. This includes 8 man events with storm and high tide.

    I’ve also noticed legacy tends to be full of codgy old fucks who can’t be bothered to learn to play faster and hipsters that need 45 seconds to resolve brainstorm but since when do we ever point the finger at the problem around here?
    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I still have a strong suspicion that if 'Thalia, Heretic Cathar' had been named 'Frank, Heretic Cathar', people would be a lot more skeptical of it.
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  14. #18094
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    You know, it seems like a golden standard here that rounds going to time is bad, but I actually like it when the rounds take longer to finish (not my rounds, obviously). This gives me more time to use the bathroom, get something to eat/drink, or to at least get a little bit of a mental break before the next match.

    EDIT: I'm not saying that rounds going to time is good for the game. I'm saying that I appreciate the extra time between rounds.
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  15. #18095
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    You know, it seems like a golden standard here that rounds going to time is bad, but I actually like it when the rounds take longer to finish (not my rounds, obviously). This gives me more time to use the bathroom, get something to eat/drink, or to at least get a little bit of a mental break before the next match.

    EDIT: I'm not saying that rounds going to time is good for the game. I'm saying that I appreciate the extra time between rounds.
    It becomes a problem at EW though, what was it this year in Pittsburgh? 11 rounds I think, all in one day...

  16. #18096
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Mcdonalds View Post
    I’ve also noticed legacy tends to be full of codgy old fucks who can’t be bothered to learn to play faster and hipsters that need 45 seconds to resolve brainstorm but since when do we ever point the finger at the problem around here?
    QFT. Unless you are counting to 10 Storm, Brainstorm should be more of a mechanical process than a thinking one.
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  17. #18097

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ellomdian View Post
    QFT. Unless you are counting to 10 Storm, Brainstorm should be more of a mechanical process than a thinking one.
    I can fully resolve Lim-Dul's Vault in my combo deck in under 60 seconds (including shuffling). Why are players allowed to take minutes to resolve Brainstorm?
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  18. #18098
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Because people don't enforce slow play. Same reason with top
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  19. #18099
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I watched Stoneblade/Splinter Twin vs. Eldrazi go to time at the local last Sunday. Therefore, Swords to Plowshares, Endless One, and Brainstorm are ruining the format.
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  20. #18100
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Just ban splinter twin to shake the format up
    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I still have a strong suspicion that if 'Thalia, Heretic Cathar' had been named 'Frank, Heretic Cathar', people would be a lot more skeptical of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goin Aggro View Post
    Ugh, there he goes again, talking about the girlfriend. We get it dude.

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