View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

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  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #18261
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Hey now guys, let's not look a gift Great Sable Stag in the mouth. Format's saved!
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhale View Post
    Gross, other formats. I puked in my mouth a little.

  2. #18262

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by maharis View Post
    That doesnít mean, of course, that DRS isnít overpowered. But it also has nothing to do with what Megadeus is saying, which is that a sequence of printings have injected one very particular kind of deck with rocket fuel while other kinds of decks get nothing (or what they do get is so cold to the blue stew that itís irrelevant.

    The difference between TNN to a fair deck and Chalice/Thalia/Teeg to a combo deck is that the latter only need to be off the table for one turn for the combo player to win. The dynamic with TNN in a fair matchup is such that even if you deal with the first one, you are too far behind to come back... and nothing stops them from just having another before you can turn around because the deck-construction cost is so low.
    Well if he meant that, he should have said that, rather than 'boo hoo green creatures aren't good enough'

    I don't understand the "ARGH EVEN IF I KILL THIS I CAN'T EVEN WIN HE'S TOO FAR AHEAD" the creature literally does nothing. In Patrick Sullivan's Chupacabra rant it's the legacy version of Baneslayer. You can tap out for 3 mana and lose it to Innocent Blood or Diabolic Edict or Golgari Charm, be down tempo and end up with nothing (not to mention Daze or Pyroblast etc), and even if you can't kill it _IMMEDIATELY_ it's not like a Scarab God or whatever that puts the opponent insanely far ahead every time they untap with it. It just does 3 damage every turn.

    If you say:
    1) Blue creatures are currently the best and this does not align with wizards vision of the colour pie
    2) TNN is a good creature, and certain other cards that used to be good are really bad against it

    I don't disagree with either of these statements but I don't think either one demands rebalancing of the competitive environment

  3. #18263

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitefaces View Post
    Maverick.
    If you can't find ways to deal with a TNN in your Green, Black and White deck maybe you should try a more casual format. It's really not that hard

    The whining is especially redicilous, since you get to play your own build your own TNN out of any creature for W for years, which renders creature combat basically meaningless and has a window of one turn to be dealt with before rendering spot removal useless as well as TNN....

  4. #18264

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by MorphBerlin View Post
    The whining is especially redicilous, since you get to play your own build your own TNN out of any creature for W for years, which renders creature combat basically meaningless and has a window of one turn to be dealt with before rendering spot removal useless as well as TNN....
    "A window of one turn to be dealt with before X" makes a huge difference. It is actually so huge that not seeing or dimissing it says a lot.

    Also, you can still interact with mom after one turn. You just usually need to accept a 1-for-2. And sometimes you don't even need to (ex : Jitte). Also, mom itself isn't a clock (and if it even tried to, then you could get rid of it anyway, so...).

    So, no. This path will lead you to nowhere except discredit.
    Quote Originally Posted by cdr View Post
    140x Relentless Rats
    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Bleiweiss
    I wish that Wizards would have just gone ahead and done away with the Reserved List entirely. It is nothing but a blight on the game and one that long outlived its purpose. [...] I am wholeheartedly in favor of getting rid of the Reserved List and reprinting higher-dollar staple cards from EDH and Legacy. Pete Hoefling the owner of StarCityGames.com agrees with my point of view as well.
    - Ben Bleiweiss, SCG General Manager, Feb 2010

  5. #18265

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by ParkerLewis View Post
    "A window of one turn to be dealt with before X" makes a huge difference. It is actually so huge that not seeing or dimissing it says a lot.

    Also, you can still interact with mom after one turn. You just usually need to accept a 1-for-2. And sometimes you don't even need to (ex : Jitte). Also, mom itself isn't a clock (and if it even tried to, then you could get rid of it anyway, so...).

    So, no. This path will lead you to nowhere except discredit.
    Casually leaving out the main part of my argument.

    I did not say mom is the same as tnn, just that is pretty redicilous in fair creature MUs as well and I hope you don't try to deny that. I just wanted to point out the hiporacy as you are fine as long as you get the tools but cry as soon as you face something challenging which you can't incoporate

  6. #18266
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Except Mom by itself is pretty bad at everything besides blocking (which then exposes it to removal) so it needs another creature to be relevant, plus as said can be removed via many other things whereas against true name you can have a hand of 7 spot removal with your creature out and it will infinitely block your creature while still never being exposed. It's also very low opportunity cost as it by itself is an infinite wall or clock, while mom again constrains deck building by forcing you to play with a decent amount of creatures to actually do anything, also it doesn't exist in the color that gets the other best aggressive 1 drop, best cantrips, and best answers
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

  7. #18267

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by maharis View Post
    The difference between TNN to a fair deck and Chalice/Thalia/Teeg to a combo deck is that the latter only need to be off the table for one turn for the combo player to win.
    Sometimes the Chalice also prevents a Storm player from efficiently sculpting their hand; or an Elf layer from dropping dorks and sculpting their board.

    Quote Originally Posted by maharis View Post
    The dynamic with TNN in a fair matchup is such that even if you deal with the first one, you are too far behind to come back.
    That would depend on the fair deck.

    -Prowess is rarely bothered by a TNN, and should easily outrace.
    -Eldrazi should normally be well ahead of most TNN decks. I suspect this is also true of the new Steel Stompy tempo deck.
    -D&T is perhaps on a down swing, but has been a solid competitor over the last few years despite the presence of TNN.
    -Burn is probably better positioned than it has been in years (would probably do better with more quality pilots), and fears no TNN.

    Most fair decks are running counter-spells anyway. What fair decks are really having that much trouble?

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitefaces View Post
    Maverick.
    Maverick is a tier-2 deck at best. A person who cannot embrace a Legacy without Maverick is never going to be happy again.

    Legacy currently features strong prison, stompy, combo, and (hard) control decks all populating the top tiers. There is only so much room for fair magic midrange and tempo decks in a format this diverse in play-styles.
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  8. #18268

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crimhead View Post


    Maverick is a tier-2 deck at best. A person who cannot embrace a Legacy without Maverick is never going to be happy again.

    Legacy currently features strong prison, stompy, combo, and (hard) control decks all populating the top tiers. There is only so much room for fair magic midrange and tempo decks in a format this diverse in play-styles.
    The B&R-List would have to get alot longer for a deck like maverick to be good again, it's just a worse creature deck than d&t and a worse midrange deck then the e.g. BUG, Grixis and 4C variants. TNN is dull I agree, but there are alot of cards that are actually worse than it to that regard and it's defenitly not a problem for the format power wise. Just alot of whining by people not acepting that the format has evolved past their petdeck.

  9. #18269

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by MorphBerlin View Post
    I did not say mom is the same as tnn, just that is pretty redicilous in fair creature MUs as well and I hope you don't try to deny that. I just wanted to point out the hiporacy as you are fine as long as you get the tools but cry as soon as you face something challenging which you can't incoporate
    Yes, I'll be denying that. The fact that you dare such a comparison shows that you don't even know what you're talking about. Regarding your lazy comment about what I could or could not "incoporate", while you know nothing about me, my position regarding TNN, or the kind of decks I play or have played, I'll just respond with a condescending smile .

    Also, I've never been a hippocrat. This is redicilous.
    Quote Originally Posted by cdr View Post
    140x Relentless Rats
    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Bleiweiss
    I wish that Wizards would have just gone ahead and done away with the Reserved List entirely. It is nothing but a blight on the game and one that long outlived its purpose. [...] I am wholeheartedly in favor of getting rid of the Reserved List and reprinting higher-dollar staple cards from EDH and Legacy. Pete Hoefling the owner of StarCityGames.com agrees with my point of view as well.
    - Ben Bleiweiss, SCG General Manager, Feb 2010

  10. #18270

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    All this maverick hate :(. The deck isn't that bad, very few people play it though.

    I'm not really bothered by True Name. Sure TNN brick walling Knight is annoying but if it has to stay back and have a staring contest with your knight then you at least get to crop rotate every turn with her while their 3 drop does literal nothing. We also have main deck options to get around it like Dark Depths, Mother, and SoFI. Out of the sideboard we're lucky that we actually have good answers, you don't know how fortunate you are to have access to Zealous Persecution until you see Death and Taxes players sleeve up hot garbage like Holy Light. You also get access to Thoughtseize which lets you handle TNN while making your combo matchup decent.

    Sure, it's annoying that blue gets awesome creatures- Leovold being blue instead of abzan and Delver of Secrets being in the same set as Reckless Waif, a card that is harder to flip, lacks a keyword, and is even an uncommon, was really ?????. But nothing that I think cards should get banned over.

  11. #18271
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Just to make sure I'm up to speed, it seems the hated card du jour is triple-costed Delver with Hexproof. Just checking.
    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    If you diversified your cantrips, a chalice wouldn't be a liability.
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    You want interesting, nonbinary games? Don't make your deck so reliant on cantrips, like pretty much every above deck.
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  12. #18272
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by MorphBerlin View Post
    Just alot of whining by people not acepting that the format has evolved past their petdeck.
    Is it all that unwarranted? Bear with me for a second.

    Part of Legacy's appeal comes from the eternal and non-rotating nature. You can use cards from any time in the history of Magic and they don't rotate out in a planned obsolescence scheme (a la Standard or 1.X). This means you can buy into a deck and have confidence it will still be playable, in some sense, years down the road.

    Currently, Legacy doesn't do a good job of fulfilling this. Decks are falling by the wayside left and right as power-creeped bullshit forces its way into the format and bad bans kill off other archetypes (RIP Survival, RIP decks that needed SDT to function). Too many decks are relegated to the tier 30%winrateagainsttheFNMfield dustbin while all the power ossifies around a few pillars of the format (some of which are very SKILL INTENSIVE).

    "Well that's competitive formats for you; adapt or die" is the predicted response. Problem here is that this isn't very fun nor interesting in Legacy. Distinct, interesting archetypes aren't rising up to replace the pet decks consigned to oblivion, the same archetypes just gobble up more of the metagame share.

    Compare to Modern...yep I'm going there. I've shat on that format as much as probably anybody else here; what kind of shit format has to ban Wild Nactl, am I right guys? But looking at recent tournaments, especially the most recent Promotional Tour, it's a real dynamic format. Sure, your shit gets banned for no reason, but there are interesting new decks popping up all over. The finals were Lantern Control vs a non-Blue Young Pyromancer deck. A pile built around Burning Inquiry and Goblin fucking Lore was the breakout deck of the tournament. And the big favorite decks underperformed.

    Shit, this reminds of the halcyon days of Legacy where every top 8, from week to week, would be completely unpredictable, where any cries of "ban X" were silenced by hardly any appearances in the top tables of the next big tournament (even including Blue cards).

    But instead of interesting stuff like this, we can get excited about the nth tiny iteration on the Blue stew, what cards du jour Tomb/City/Chalice decks kill with (Exalted Angel is making a comeback, I'm sure!), and maybe get enraged like Borborygmos when some rapscallion trolls us with a fake pirate deck. Oh yeah, and be way more SKILL INTENSIVE.

  13. #18273
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Can't remember the last time we had a deck as outside the lines as the deck that got to the finals in modern do something like that at a large event. It has to have been years right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

  14. #18274
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    Can't remember the last time we had a deck as outside the lines as the deck that got to the finals in modern do something like that at a large event. It has to have been years right?
    Probably BR Sire of Insanity or something.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear
    (On Innistrad)
    Yeah, an insanely powerful block which put the "derp!" factor in Legacy completely over the top.

  15. #18275

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brainstorm Ape View Post
    Distinct, interesting archetypes aren't rising up to replace the pet decks consigned to oblivion, the same archetypes just gobble up more of the metagame share.
    I'm not buying this at all.

    In the time since Maverick fell out of favour (2012-2013) we have seen the rise of:

    -Eldrazi
    -RGCL
    -RB Reanimator
    -Infect
    -GB Elves
    -Steel Stompy
    -New Miracles.

    We get plenty of new decks that are interesting and 100% distinct. The only thing we aren't really getting are linear aggro decks and cantrip-free midranges decks. That's hardly the end of the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rascalyote View Post
    All this maverick hate :(
    I've got no bad feelings towards Maverick as a deck. I suspect it's firmly tier-2, but still very capable.

    What I don't understand is how people seem to ignore the wealth of distinct archetypes in this format all for the lack of a tier-1 blueless "fair magic" midrange option.

    Steel Stompy is nothing like Mud (or Eldrazi), but some people refuse to recognise it as innovation - unable to see past the Sol Lands and Chalice. Likewise all decks with canntrips; or all decks with DRS, are essentially the same. Maverick, and only Maverick, is truly distinctive. And there is no shortage of hyperbolic nonsense to support this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rascalyote View Post
    The deck isn't that bad, very few people play it though.
    I always felt this way about Aggro Loam in the SDT Miracles era.

    Interestingly, Aggro Loam seems to have dropped of the face of the Earth! I wonder, is this because:
    1. The deck leaned heavily on a favourable Miracles match and can no longer compete? Or,
    2. Loam was primarily played (begrudgingly) by Maverick refugees who are back to Maverick now that they no longer feel beaten into playing CotV?
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  16. #18276
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    Can't remember the last time we had a deck as outside the lines as the deck that got to the finals in modern do something like that at a large event. It has to have been years right?
    Last weekend.
    http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...header-Weekend

    First tournament: 72 players. Won by Steel Stompy, which The Source said wasn't a real deck. Second tournament: 86 players. Won by UB Death's Shadow, overcoming Mill in the finals. MILL! Obviously these events don't have the status of the Pro Tour, but they're still very competitive and well-attended.

  17. #18277
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    "Move on from your pet deck"

    No, how about you go play standard and be a grinder barnacle turd where you don't get to have a pet-deck and when you play Legacy you just play Ape and Show because it's quick and easy.

    What the fuck, do Vintage players say shit like this too or have they worked out that they are FILTHY FUCKING CASUALS? The reason Legacy isn't a 2 deck formats is because almost everyone plays decks that are strictly worse 75s than the top decks - which most people could sleeve up if they wanted to, they just elected not to.
    Quote Originally Posted by nedleeds View Post
    Dat 1/1 with built in pump. Watch out Griselbrand here comes lizard mid range.
    Quote Originally Posted by Whitefaces View Post
    It's amazing people still get a kick from pointing out how good fetchlands are with DRS and cantrips etc. It's like it's some secret that they're graciously unveiling for the rest of us.

    'Brainstorm and DRS are very powerful cards...'

    'ACKSHUALLY'

  18. #18278
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    To be honest, Vintage is fun but has limited play. As the format grows in Restricted cards the format itself shrinks. There will come a day where the best deck in Vintage is a Highlander deck and when that day comes there will be no answer. That and right now you are stuck playing a known element to do well, even if you can change up how it works some. (Golden Gun Oath for example)

    The most healthy format right now is Modern, Legacy is drifting towards the Vintage situation where known elements are really all that is viable. This is not really a point of debate or complaint, it is the outcome of the formats identity. Ban or Legal. New cards that are printed that cause large scale change either have to be accepted and adapted to or Banned. Since that second option is (thankfully) limited we are mostly stuck with the first on all relevant cards. As more and more cards cause change we have more and more streamlined decks that, like Vintage, become the default options. The only difference is we can have them banned outright, ignoring the scarcity that the option is used.
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  19. #18279

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    "Move on from your pet deck"

    No, how about you go play standard and be a grinder barnacle turd where you don't get to have a pet-deck and when you play Legacy you just play Ape and Show because it's quick and easy.

    What the fuck, do Vintage players say shit like this too or have they worked out that they are FILTHY FUCKING CASUALS? The reason Legacy isn't a 2 deck formats is because almost everyone plays decks that are strictly worse 75s than the top decks - which most people could sleeve up if they wanted to, they just elected not to.
    It sounds like you have already accepted that pet decks are shit so why would you get upset when somebody tells you to accept that pet decks are shit? I don't understand the rage. "Move on from your pet deck" doesn't mean "You're only allowed to play UBgr" it means "If you're going to sperg out when you lose with GW KotR or whatever then maybe you should play something else"

    @BrainstormApe if you're going to make that argument then what time period is supposed to be 'perfect legacy' where the format is ideal and we can't add any more cards to it? Any date you choose is going to be pretty arbitrary

  20. #18280

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Are we sure a deck looking to jam a turn 1 thorn should be looked at as innovation? Seems closer to a symptom of a problem.



    Also, two things can be true.

    True name nemesis not running roughshod over legacy is a testament to the impressive depth and card pool of the format.

    True name nemesis is a hideous card design that doesn't belong in legacy.

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