View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

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192. You may not vote on this poll
  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #18401
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    They're getting a little better at printing spells. Fatal Push is well received. Kolaghan's Command doeth all things well.

    It's just the logical extension that if it's worth playing once, then it's worth playing twice, so let's throw some Snapcasters in there. But then we're stretching our colors a bit aren't we? Nah just toss in some DRS and we'll be fine. Goodstuff! This is just the natural evolution of having the best at everything.
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  2. #18402
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce View Post
    Wizards decided(!) that noncreature spells were too strong and that creatures weren't strong enough, they could've done three things:
    —Print better creatures
    —Stop printing such powerful spells
    —Print better creatures and worse spells

    They went with the third option, and it really, really shows. None of these creatures—Deathrite Shaman, Leovold, Delver, Emrakul, G-Brand, True-Name Nemesis (LOL)—would be nearly as good if comparable tools for stopping them were still hitting shelves.
    I think, that hinting at the fact, that a 1-mana "Planeswalker" is fine to be printed but 2-mana counterspells are "too good" (topic: Mana Leak) would have been sufficient as example to show that there is a massive misbalance between "threats" & "answers" in modern set design.

    If removal & counters are more expensive than the cards removed, they are getting pointless and people rather "trump" enemy threats with even bigger ones. It's the natural development we have witnessed during the times of Cancel & Murder.

    The development of creatures compared to other card types is easiest to see in Vintage, a format which had only a few viable creatures like 11 years ago and now looks like a whole different format.

    But don't let me derail the discussion here :)
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  3. #18403

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    I think, that hinting at the fact, that a 1-mana "Planeswalker" is fine to be printed but 2-mana counterspells are "too good" (topic: Mana Leak) would have been sufficient as example to show that there is a massive misbalance between "threats" & "answers" in modern set design.
    I agree with what you are saying, except DRS is a poor example. They were willing to print it because it's a mediocre card in Standard. Even still, it was banned in Modern, and probably considered a mistake.
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  4. #18404
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crimhead View Post
    I agree with what you are saying, except DRS is a poor example. They were willing to print it because it's a mediocre card in Standard. Even still, it was banned in Modern, and probably considered a mistake.
    Guess you are right. Maybe should have picked tarmogoyf vs Cancel
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
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  5. #18405

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    In fairness, the recent Fatal Push is one of the best removal spells of all time.

  6. #18406

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce View Post
    First of all, we're talking about where the meta would go, not where the meta is right now
    100% right

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce View Post
    Wasteland gets significantly stronger when you have to wait a turn to use your Mirage-block fetchlands. The fact that they take a turn to use makes Spyglass significantly better because not only can you—on the draw!—play Spyglass, look at the opponent's hand, and name the Mirage fetch that hurts the opponent the most based on their T1 land drop and the contents of their hand, you can do that on the first turn. So yes, Eldrazi gets a HUGE boost against anything that's not monocolored. Or you can Wasteland the opponent before they can activate their fetch. And if the opponent sticks with Evolving Wilds/Terramorphic Expanse, it doesn't help them much because they can only find basics, and they throw all their T1 plays as a matter of course.
    You're exactly right, and I agree that just means the format would adapt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce View Post
    I'm fine with more people's playing basics, but I'm absolutely not fine with losing any number of decks that couldn't exist in any other format because the fixing sucks.
    I think the difference is one of perception. No fetches would still mean people having access to :
    - ABUR Duals
    - Shocklands
    - Painlands
    - Filter lands
    - the ones that enter tapped if you do/don't control the corresponding land type (note they don't require a basic land, so duals and shocks tick the box)
    - City of Brass
    - 3-color taplands
    - TE & EW
    - ... and I'm probably forgetting some

    In such a format, reliably getting 4+ colors is still quite achievable - you just can't get it without a noticeable drawback, a balancing mechanic that is at the very basic foundation of the game. Note you have an abundant number of tools/options on how you elect to pay this bill (being more exposed to non-basic hate, and/or a tempo loss, and/or additional life payment, and/or...).

    So, I don't think it would be fair to say that removing the fetches from the format would make the fixing "suck". Far, far from it. I think, at the absolute worst, it would make the available fixing fair (and I do mean at the absolute worst).
    Last edited by ParkerLewis; 02-24-2018 at 07:06 AM.
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  7. #18407

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    The fact that Wizards has dedicated the introduction of fetchlands an own spot in their recent timeline of magic due to the upcoming M25 set imo suggests that they are well aware that these lands have had a huge impact on the way the game works, especially with respect to the validity of color borders and the color pie and that they have probably considered removing them at some point.

  8. #18408
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by ParkerLewis View Post
    I think the difference is one of perception. No fetches would still mean people having access to :
    - ABUR Duals
    - Shocklands
    - Painlands
    - Filter lands
    - the ones that enter tapped if you do/don't control the corresponding land type (note they don't require a basic land, so duals and shocks tick the box)
    - City of Brass
    - 3-color taplands
    - TE & EW
    - ... and I'm probably forgetting some

    In such a format, reliably getting 4+ colors is still quite achievable - you just can't get it without a noticeable drawback, a balancing mechanic that is at the very basic foundation of the game. Note you have an abundant number of tools/options on how you elect to pay this bill (being more exposed to non-basic hate, and/or a tempo loss, and/or additional life payment, and/or...).

    So, I don't think it would be fair to say that removing the fetches from the format would make the fixing "suck". Far, far from it. I think, at the absolute worst, it would make the available fixing fair (and I do mean at the absolute worst).
    You make a good point about how color was intended as a means of balancing mechanics by splitting them up. I also agree that there's no shortage of options to keep multicolored decks viable, but I feel like people are more likely to gravitate toward running more dual lands than they are to play stuff that comes into play tapped. My main worry is that this would price people (like me) out of the format and would give certain tempo builds even greater effectiveness in the absence of easy fixing for other archetypes.

    Also, though the format would evolve, I think this would be a pretty fundamental change that would have enormous repercussions all around, not just for 4–5c Chock Full'o'Duals builds. I'm fine with changes, but I like my decks, and I think some of them would become unrecognizable or positively unplayable if such a change were to happen. Of course, on the flipside, I could still play Burn, Dredge, Charbelcher, and Poops without any detrimental effect; would a rise in those decks be good for the format, though?

    Quote Originally Posted by Erdvermampfa View Post
    The fact that Wizards has dedicated the introduction of fetchlands an own spot in their recent timeline of magic due to the upcoming M25 set imo suggests that they are well aware that these lands have had a huge impact on the way the game works, especially with respect to the validity of color borders and the color pie and that they have probably considered removing them at some point.
    I think you're probably right, but the fact that they keep printing them indicates that they don't want them gone. Of course, Invocation Counterbalance was pretty indicative of poor planning (as was Invocation Blood Sun—er, Moon), but knocking fetches right after printing them would be a slap in the face of a whole lot of players across formats.

    This doesn't have any bearing on the argument, but how weird would it be for Modern to have better fixing than Legacy?
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  9. #18409
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Maro has said that if "Frontier" ever became a sanctioned format it would not have Fetches in it. More or less says it all imo.

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  10. #18410

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by ParkerLewis View Post
    100% right



    You're exactly right, and I agree that just means the format would adapt.



    I think the difference is one of perception. No fetches would still mean people having access to :
    - ABUR Duals
    - Shocklands
    - Painlands
    - Filter lands
    - the ones that enter tapped if you do/don't control the corresponding land type (note they don't require a basic land, so duals and shocks tick the box)
    - City of Brass
    - 3-color taplands
    - TE & EW
    - ... and I'm probably forgetting some

    In such a format, reliably getting 4+ colors is still quite achievable - you just can't get it without a noticeable drawback, a balancing mechanic that is at the very basic foundation of the game. Note you have an abundant number of tools/options on how you elect to pay this bill (being more exposed to non-basic hate, and/or a tempo loss, and/or additional life payment, and/or...).

    So, I don't think it would be fair to say that removing the fetches from the format would make the fixing "suck". Far, far from it. I think, at the absolute worst, it would make the available fixing fair (and I do mean at the absolute worst).
    We get it, but none of us want to play without our fetches man. You will not win anyone over, no matter how much you make sense, I don't agree with that trash! Good points, but no way, Jose. How bout banning duals? Would force you to fetch shocklands. That could maybe push aggressive strategies over the edge, the extra 2-6 life lost a game by multicolored decks, to the point that we see an actual shake up: aggros return.

  11. #18411

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce View Post
    My main worry is that this would price people (like me) out of the format and would give certain tempo builds even greater effectiveness in the absence of easy fixing for other archetypes.

    Also, though the format would evolve, I think this would be a pretty fundamental change that would have enormous repercussions all around, not just for 4–5c Chock Full'o'Duals builds. I'm fine with changes, but I like my decks, and I think some of them would become unrecognizable or positively unplayable if such a change were to happen. Of course, on the flipside, I could still play Burn, Dredge, Charbelcher, and Poops without any detrimental effect; would a rise in those decks be good for the format, though?
    This was mentioned from the start, but I'm not sure anyone would get really priced out of the format. 4c/5c just can't be built by only piling up on Duals - you're forced to run rainbow lands like City of Brass which are basically free (and accept folding up no questions asked to any Moon effect). Basically, they'd probably be playing a few more duals than today (something like 12), but a typical Czech Pile list will run ~9 today, so the difference is not that high. Additionally, it would so fold to Wasteland and Blood Moon that it either would be a moot point or they'd find another more resilient way to adapt, probably accepting some tempo loss (eg playing TE/EW or the slow fetches, where in both cases "more duals" wouldn't be a real solution).

    2c decks are almost unaffected from the change (and 1c obviously don't care), so I feel only 3c decks would be "at risk" of seeing their optimal manabase turning into running 2-3 more duals than today while still be able to survive as-is. On the other hand, they'd be playing 6-8 fetches less, so the actual price difference is probably more in the ~1.5 dual range. It's not nothing, but it's not a different world. That's also supposing people don't turn to other solutions for their manabases (eg maybe green decks run a 5-6 mix of BoP/NH instead of 4 DRS - or don't at all, don't know).
    Last edited by ParkerLewis; 02-25-2018 at 12:50 PM. Reason: typos
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Bleiweiss
    I wish that Wizards would have just gone ahead and done away with the Reserved List entirely. It is nothing but a blight on the game and one that long outlived its purpose. [...] I am wholeheartedly in favor of getting rid of the Reserved List and reprinting higher-dollar staple cards from EDH and Legacy. Pete Hoefling the owner of StarCityGames.com agrees with my point of view as well.
    - Ben Bleiweiss, SCG General Manager, Feb 2010

  12. #18412

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Maro has said that if "Frontier" ever became a sanctioned format it would not have Fetches in it. More or less says it all imo.

    http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post...-the-idea-of-a
    That's not what he said. He says that "I wouldn’t have included Khans block because I don’t think you want fetches in the format" i.e. that it is his own personal opinion and not necessarily that of WOTC. I don't think he's even particularly involved with the development side of things, which I believe would be the ones tasked with making such a format.

    Although, the idea of starting later than Khans of Tarkir is a bit amusing because that would mean (right now) you'd have it be composed of nothing other than really unpopular Standard formats.

  13. #18413

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I would like to see brainstorm banned since the 18000 card legacy format is now 3 overarching archetypes:

    1) Brainstorm plus ponder and/or fow decks. This is literally the majority of the format per mtgtop8.

    2) Prison decks to hate out the above (chalice and thalia decks plus lands)

    3) Glass cannon combo (br reanimator/elves/dredge etc.)

    Now I get the argument that there are many different decks within the three including the brainstom decks...but I think the format could be much more diverse without it. After the brainstorm shell you are really just picking your win cons and favorite protection spells.

  14. #18414

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by kinda View Post
    I think the format could be much more diverse without [Brainstorm].
    Would you please elaborate? What would we be seeing in their stead? It seems a bit too easy to say “all these decks that use the best cards are keeping all the other decks out” without elaborating on what we’re missing out on and quantifying just how many more viable decks there’d actually be.

    And why is even more diversity desirable? Isn’t the current environment overall rather healthy, with decent sideboard plans for most decks against most other decks?

  15. #18415
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Would also like to better understand what the diversity would be.

    The blue almost needs to exist to keep the unfair decks in check.
    -rob

  16. #18416

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    Would also like to better understand what the diversity would be.

    The blue almost needs to exist to keep the unfair decks in check.
    No one is arguing for a ban of FoW, Daze, Pierce or whatever. The point is that banning brainstorm could be a first step to create parity between the colors in terms of card selection and randomness management. As long as BS is legal decks that can't play it will always fight an uphill battle and if you actually want to win at games it will always be silly to play without it. If BS was banned, blue would still have an advantage in this regard because there are so many other cantrips that could replace it so you blue fanboys could still be happy.

  17. #18417

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by now View Post
    Would you please elaborate? What would we be seeing in their stead? It seems a bit too easy to say “all these decks that use the best cards are keeping all the other decks out” without elaborating on what we’re missing out on and quantifying just how many more viable decks there’d actually be.

    And why is even more diversity desirable? Isn’t the current environment overall rather healthy, with decent sideboard plans for most decks against most other decks?
    My guess is banning it would pretty much create a whole new format. Maybe I'm being overly optimistic? I don't know what would be good...but I'm very curious. Side note, I love legacy just can't shake the feeling that we are missing out.

  18. #18418
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    no reason to get personal here. i haven't competitively used brainstorm since around 2010-2012, and that was with doomsday. i've pushed quite a few decks that have no brainstorm/ponder.

    anyway -

    http://mtgtop8.com/format?f=LE&meta=39

    if you take a look at the breakdown on the left, it's pretty diverse already.

    what cards do you want from the other colors that are not being played but would get played if brainstorm were banned? what other decks are you looking to play?

    the best cards of each color are roughly already being played. sometimes if you want to have consistency outside of blue, you need to find synergies. is that fair? maybe not, but the brainstorm decks also can then get preyed upon by chalice and taxing decks.

    the argument really isn't brainstorm, there are enough cantrips in blue so that every deck that wants to xerox to death will still be able to. at this point the game is getting so complex that the only way to stop this kind of strategy is hate against it.

    thalia, chalice, thorn, eidolon are all great examples of ways to beat this kind of strategy. this is also why aether vial, blood moon, wasteland, and to a lesser extent port have a strong effect on decks that try to maximize efficiency.

    you have to choose what kind of strategy you want to play. if you want to get around the blue, then you'll have to approach the game differently. it can be done, and sometimes sacrificing a little consistency can be well worth it.

    just because you may be facing a brainstorm deck doesn't mean that you're an underdog. there's such a range of those decks that you can be a heavy favorite in some and a huge dog in others.

    i'm not sure what you're trying to get out of it.

    (just a quick edit, i've been playing competitively since tempest came out and i've seen the huge range in decks from old t2, 1.5, 1x and the current formats as well. i'm not really sure what people are expecting will develop if things are banned to reduce consistency).
    -rob

  19. #18419
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    the argument really isn't brainstorm
    This entire dumpster fire of a thread is about BS and why it should be banned.

  20. #18420

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    This entire dumpster fire of a thread is about BS and why it should be banned.
    Not a chance.

    Brainstorm could be banned tomorrow, and in no time at all people would be bitching about DRS, CotV, S&T, Ponder, or whatever else rubs them the wrong way.

    What this thread is 90% "about" is ranting and whining that Legacy isn't everything some of us want it to be.
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