All B/R update speculation.

[Rascalyote]

Im usually all down to complain about 1 mana instant speed Hallowed burial but come on. Teeg plus mom is still good, it'd be lame if they were just dead to it, they had karakas before and they have Judgement and Mentor now which is good which means there is interaction in the matchup. Theres other angles of attack like thalia, equipment, library, tracker, etc. Matchup is obviously in miracles favour but you're still playing magic.

Unpopular opinion- with all the Kommands, -1/-1 hate, grindy decks, maverick seems like its better suited in this meta than dnt and if it had as many players itd put up the same/better results

[Dice_Box]

I have some issues with your assertion that the internet "wasn't as popular in Magic" seven years ago. Heck, I can vanity-search myself in the Dojo archives and find tournament reports from events I played in the 90s. And there was Magic on Usenet before the Dojo.

You think there's a qualitative difference between then and now.

There is a difference. Once it was more common to get your news about magic though a magazine then it was the internet, I remember store prices set from the pages of monthly updated glossy paper. If your legitimacy going to argue with me about this, if your really going to make the case to me that nothing has changed in the way the internet was used even as little as 5 years ago not to argue 15 then your out of your mind.

Can you really tell me you think these days Tog would happen the same way, with people using it as a proxy for a card they could not find or would they have just;
a) bought the card they wanted online
b) been involved with talks about it with others and worked it all out much faster or
c) all independently worked it out in small groups today as they proxied the card like they did back then?

C looks odd today.

More people have the internet now then did in 07.
More people are using magic related sites and content now then they use to.
More of these sites exist now then use to.
The change in communication has pushed forth a quantum shift in how this game is both played but also designed and distributed.

Fuck the net has changed everything from selling, trading, organising, deck construction and even meeting for testing and play. Yes, I think there qualitative difference between then and now, and you know what, your the only one I have ever meet who disagrees. Ever. And your wrong.

[tsabo_tavoc]

Pretty sure Megadeus was referring to Council's Judgment, as Terminus is actually hosed by Teeg.
I agree both True Name Nemesis and Council's Judgment are wrong Magic cards, but 3 cmc and 2 coloured mana are restrictive enough as protection from banning.

[Tittliewinks22]

Pretty sure Megadeus was referring to Council's Judgment, as Terminus is actually hosed by Teeg.
I agree both True Name Nemesis and Council's Judgment are wrong Magic cards, but 3 cmc and 2 coloured mana are restrictive enough as protection from banning.

I still do not think that Miracles has that large of a % share of the Maverick downfall blame.

Council's Judgement was a 1 of in most miracle shells during its height. In order to set up a sorcery speed council's judgement to clear the Teeg into a wrath on your opponents turn via terminus took 3 white mana and two cards! 3 white mana is tough to retain in the face of a wasteland deck that has the ability to tutor up wastelands... Not to mention if you add any hate bear into the mix it became that much more difficult.

Having played both sides of the match, I think it was tops a 45/55 split in miracles favor. Not even close to the naysaying that Claymore gave it.

To be clear here, I do think Maverick has been on a downward spiral since the 2012 printings, but I do not think that Miracles was the primary or even tertiary cause to this. There were numerous factors and I always thought Maverick was one of the best fair decks to combat terminus.

EDIT: The more I think about the interactions that Maverick had that were favorable in the Miracles matchup:
-They had more ways to skirt counterbalance than most decks (SFM, GSZ, Cavern, and Quasali Pridemage).
-They had maindecked ways to combat the white cards in the miracles match (Mom, Teeg)
-They had ways to combat the cantrips (thalia)
-They had ways to grind out (Knight, DRS, Tracker)

The deck was very interactive with Miracles, but much like 12-Post and Goblins, not many people liked to play the decks with even or favorable matchups against Miracles because they felt bad vs the rest of the field (delver/combo).

[pettdan]

I played the Maverick vs Miracles matchup many many times over maybe 2013-2017. It was ok untill Council's Judgement, Monastery Mentor and the Legends version (with Karakas) became popular. Each of these cards decimated Maverick's chances to win a game, it was a very bad and frustrating matchup [edit: as I remember it]. I tried tweaking the deck a lot too, playing two maindeck Jitte to get the Mentors, maindeck Bitterblossom to put pressure on Jace through stp + snap + Terminus, double Chokes, but it didn't do enough to make it a good matchup.

Edit: just remembered, Wear/Tear also gave Miracles the perfect tool to answer Maverick's best threats with card advantage (and double card-advantage thanks to Snapcaster).

[Megadeus]

I played the Maverick vs Miracles matchup many many times over maybe 2013-2017. It was ok untill Council's Judgement, Monastery Mentor and the Legends version (with Karakas) became popular. Each of these cards decimated Maverick's chances to win a game, it was a very bad and frustrating matchup [edit: as I remember it]. I tried tweaking the deck a lot too, playing two maindeck Jitte to get the Mentors, maindeck Bitterblossom to put pressure on Jace through stp + snap + Terminus, double Chokes, but it didn't do enough to make it a good matchup.

This. Too many haymakers that miracles could easily splash. Maverick had to seriously warp the board to win the match up. I mean all those cards that he just listed as things that are "good" against miracles, but I was still boarding 7-8 cards for the match-up and still having maybe a 50-50 win rate and most of that is only because so many miracles players were bad. I don't think I beat good miracles pilots more than a handful of times. Judgement wasn't just an easy answer to Teeg, it was an easy answer to any non creature you brought in to combat the deck. Choke, library, walkers, even sigarda. Doesn't matter. Yes it was kind of slow and clunky, but when you had infinite top deck manipulation for your 1 mana instant get out of jail free wrath you can afford to be a bit clunky with your uninteractive removal spell

[Erdvermampfa]

Many people seem to forget that Maverick originated and also peaked during the Mental Misstep era which was when you could actually get away with midrange creature decks with little disruption because everything else like combo was already hosed by misstep decks enough so no one played combo for instance. In fact, the deck should have been abandoned the very day Wizards announced the ban of misstep. The idea that a nonblue midrange creature deck can be competitive in Legacy is fundamentally wrong and should be given up asap to avoid further disappointment.

[pettdan]

Many people seem to forget that Maverick originated and also peaked during the Mental Misstep era which was when you could actually get away with midrange creature decks with little disruption because everything else like combo was already hosed by misstep decks enough so no one played combo for instance. In fact, the deck should have been abandoned the very day Wizards announced the ban of misstep. The idea that a nonblue midrange creature deck can be competitive in Legacy is fundamentally wrong and should be given up asap to avoid further disappointment.

Midrange creature deck with little disruption? I'm really getting lost in the discussion here but Maverick is a hatebear deck, it has plenty of maindeck interaction for most combo decks. (In my limited large event experience, which is two European Legacy GP's, I've beat that I recall 1 ANT, 2 SnS and lost to Dig-Through Time Omnishow (which was a t0 deck I guess).) Although this is a separate and long discussion..

Edit: never mind this comment, I misinterpreted what you wrote. Sorry!

[Claymore]

Maverick had to resolve a Mother, a GSZ for Teeg (looking at turn 3 or 4), and then still resolve some way of ending the game outside of 2/2 beats against a deck with infinite countermagic (CounterTop), could overload removal (Snap + Swords), and Ambush Vipers (Clique, Snapcaster). Maverick wasn't winning the game any time soon against Miracles either, giving lots of time to set up a stack war to remove Teeg. Then it got Mentor and Judgement on top of all that.

Maverick's best bet was resolving a Garruk of Secrets and crossing its fingers.

I'm interested now if Maverick is somehow good against Delver and maybe that's why it's putting up numbers lately; I think that's another reason it got to become a big deck (combating RUG Thresh). I remember Maverick was supposed to prey on Delver strategies but I don't know if it actually does now.

Edit: Kinda funny that both sides are using the same points for their own view point, both very valid.

[Lemnear]

I got somewhere lost on the way.

Since when is a deck with Thalia, Teeg, GSZ for Teeg, Wastelands, SB hatebears and potentially Thoughtseize (Dark Maverick was a thing for a while) suddenly in the same league as Zoo for the discussion?

[Rascalyote]

3 copies of Maverick in top 16 of recent legeacy classic (2 top 8) , it just Top 8 the GP, and very few people play the deck. Deck is obviously past it's prime and just bad now, ban DRS as it only promotes grixis strategies.

/sarcasm

[pettdan]

Actually Rascalyote brings up a point that I wanted to, too, but being too insecure about it. But I think it's a valid perspective. That is, Deathrite has helped keep Maverick a good deck for the past couple of years, now some want to ban it on the merits of the blue shell. It was rarely considered banworthy when played in Maverick, BUG Delver, Shardless, the Rock or Nic Fit [edit: or Food Chain or Aluren] but now that it found its way into non-green blue decks it's suddenly too good (maybe for good reason, but it feels unfair! And there is an option). I hope banning it won't do to these decks, Maverick primarily since the Rock is already gone, what banning SDT did to Painter and Doomsday: that is, barely damage the main problem (slight exasperation) but cause major problems for some interesting tier 2 decks. With that said, it still seems like perhaps the best path forward, considering pillars and all, (unless wait and see if the meta improves) and I think Maverick will be ok without Deathrite too, we already have good Punishing lists without it (I think, ah maybe not).

Edit: btw, quite controversial but I think that with a Brainstorm ban it would be possible to unban SDT. It would make WotC look a bit foolish so it seems unlikely, even without considering other things.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Ah yes, keep deathrite shaman so maverick can be a deck. Where have I heard this before?

[Jak]

I'm pretty sure Maverick can operate fine without Deathrite. It has replacements. The deck tapping Underground Sea for their BoP won't have any alternatives.

[pettdan]

@Jak: in my mind, Deathrite gives Maverick a reasonably consistent early game (t2-3) pre-sideboard interaction with Reanimator, Lands and Dredge. This has helped make up for the lack of FoW, to some extent. This is not a very obvious or 100% correct description and I'm sure the opposite can be argued, but it should still be partly the case.

And then there is the very good interaction with Scryb Ranger, making Maverick perhaps the deck which best utilizes the shaman (not considering how other decks play more efficient spells with its provided mana, which again adds to the argument that perhaps Deathrite isn't the problem). Oh, after Elves I guess, but that deck seems good enough to operate its gameplan including t2 combo wins without this specific mana dork.

[Jak]

@Jak: in my mind, Deathrite gives Maverick a reasonably consistent early game (t2-3) pre-sideboard interaction with Reanimator, Lands and Dredge. This has helped make up for the lack of FoW, to some extent. This is not a very obvious or 100% correct description and I'm sure the opposite can be argued, but it should still be partly the case.

Of course. Deathrite has a ton of benefits. However, the mana acceleration aspect of it, which is the number one use, can be made up in other ways that green has to offer. Obviously, it hurts losing the GY hate element plus the other late game instances of gaining/draining life. That's why Deathrite is so good it sees play in a variety of decks.

And then there is the very good interaction with Scryb Ranger, making Maverick perhaps the deck which best utilizes the shaman (not considering how other decks play more efficient spells with its provided mana, which again adds to the argument that perhaps Deathrite isn't the problem). Oh, after Elves I guess, but that deck seems good enough to operate its gameplan including t2 combo wins without this specific mana dork.

Sure, but that can be said for any mana dork. Green really doesn't lose much if Deathrite goes. It's the Blue/Black decks.

[Vissah]

All this talk about banning or not bannign Shaman is going nowhere.
Just ban the card, we all know it is opressive and it warps the format around it.
We all know it is overpowered and we all know it will go sooner than later.

[Dice_Box]

All this talk about banning or not bannign Shaman is going nowhere.

Man the point of this thread is to go nowhere. It exists for those who wish to debate for their own amusement, nothing more, nothing less.

[pettdan]

Ok, can't stop myself from replying again. Discussions are far too much fun, I should have a 24 hour lock on posting on the Source. There's a challenge for some creative people!

@Jak: I don't see that you address the issues that I raised. I know that I way too often, too, miss out on main points, so I'll try to point out what's in my view missing.

@Jak: in my mind, Deathrite gives Maverick a reasonably consistent early game (t2-3) pre-sideboard interaction with Reanimator, Lands and Dredge. This has helped make up for the lack of FoW, to some extent. This is not a very obvious or 100% correct description and I'm sure the opposite can be argued, but it should still be partly the case.

Of course. Deathrite has a ton of benefits. However, the mana acceleration aspect of it, which is the number one use, can be made up in other ways that green has to offer. Obviously, it hurts losing the GY hate element plus the other late game instances of gaining/draining life. That's why Deathrite is so good it sees play in a variety of decks.

So, a short summary: I say that non-blue decks need early interaction without using FoW against some unfair strategies, and your reply is that they can still have mana acceleration? It seems that your argument is not addressing the point I was trying to make.

And then there is the very good interaction with Scryb Ranger, making Maverick perhaps the deck which best utilizes the shaman (not considering how other decks play more efficient spells with its provided mana, which again adds to the argument that perhaps Deathrite isn't the problem). Oh, after Elves I guess, but that deck seems good enough to operate its gameplan including t2 combo wins without this specific mana dork.

Sure, but that can be said for any mana dork. Green really doesn't lose much if Deathrite goes. It's the Blue/Black decks.

Again, a short summary: I say that if Deathrite is too good, then tripling up on it and tutoring for it most efficiently should make a deck doing that far too good. And your reply, which I have some difficulty understanding, is that any mana dork can be triple activated too? This seems irrelevant.

It just seems apparent to me, in my limited understanding of things, that the problem is not Deathrite.

@Vissah: I don't want to be offensive here, but I need to question your perspective. This reminds me of someone putting the fingers in their ears to not hear something they do not want to hear. Ironically it's what my avatar depicts. There's also some irony in joining a discussion to ask people to not discuss the most relevant topic. I think a different approach could be to be happy that there is a vivrant discussion with lots of arguments being provided pro and contra, maybe this kind of complicated discussion can be more rewarding than actual gameplay. Enjoy a beautiful, complicated discussion! If you can't enjoy a complicated discussion, maybe avoid this thread, or bring up the relevant topics that you are interested in discussing. If other people share your view, they will probably be discussed.

[Zulabnar]

At the moment the problem of Maverick and non blue decks is that best creature cards are

Delver
True Name Nemesis
DeathRite Shaman
Baleful Strix
Leovold
Snapcaster

You can put on the table good creature without having green (having it only as a splash), so why play green deck?