View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

Voters
192. You may not vote on this poll
  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #19121
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Mcdonalds View Post
    Ah yes, keep deathrite shaman so maverick can be a deck. Where have I heard this before?
    "Keep SDT so Painter can be a deck"? Jup, we had that
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
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  2. #19122
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    @Lemnear & Lord_Mcdonalds:

    Let's see, I still think there may be something worth discussing here. But I also know that I can get very tunnel visioned by my own arguments.

    If someone else have argued for the same action using other arguments, that is not really relevant for this argument. If someone provided this very argument that I did above before, I'm sorry about that, I missed it. Who was this and approximately when? [edit: I guess this is asking for too much, but just in case you would remember.. Also I wanted you to just think back for a second, to see if that was actually the case.]

    So, to repeat the argument that was so summarily dismissed, I'm arguing that Deathrite is not a strong enough card to warrant a ban, and the argument presented is that the deck that can a) most consistently put the card into play, that can b) get the most use out of its effect and that can actually c) protect it best while in play too, is nowhere even close to meriting a ban of anything. This would illustrate that the problem lies elsewhere. Now all of my arguments can be discussed, it's not a black or white thing. And maybe the conclusion I want to draw is false.

  3. #19123
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by pettdan View Post
    If someone else have argued for the same action using other arguments, that is not really relevant for this argument. If someone provided this very argument that I did above before, I'm sorry about that, I missed it. Who was this and approximately when? [edit: I guess this is asking for too much, but just in case you would remember.. Also I wanted you to just think back for a second, to see if that was actually the case.]
    We have seen this argument more than once in the last 5 years, thus our reaction. I remember it being used for Survival and SDT, two cards which put the format in a wretch and the arguments made to keep these cards around despite their obvious dominance was, that they get used also in some fringe or outright Tier 3 decks.

    At the time of Survival it was irrelevant for some people that the UG or GW versions dominated the top seats, but it was all about arguing that removing Survival would also remove RG Survival Advantage (aka Anger+Squee+FlametongueKavu) and Teen Titans (GoblinWelder+SunderingTitan) from being fringe decks. The same happened with SDT, when people tried distracting the community from the house Miracles was, but moaned the potential loss Painter and 12-Post would suffer from a SDT ban.

    In terms of DRS and Maverick, the argument is even more ill-fitting as Maverick does just fine with Noble Hierarch as manadork and is not reliant on DRS. It's still distracting the discussion on DRS from the grixis/4c decks which make up ~21% if the meta.

    Quote Originally Posted by pettdan View Post
    So, to repeat the argument that was so summarily dismissed, I'm arguing that Deathrite is not a strong enough card to warrant a ban, and the argument presented is that the deck that can a) most consistently put the card into play, that can b) get the most use out of its effect and that can actually c) protect it best while in play too, is nowhere even close to meriting a ban of anything. This would illustrate that the problem lies elsewhere. Now all of my arguments can be discussed, it's not a black or white thing. And maybe the conclusion I want to draw is false.
    DRS totally warrants a ban by sheer metagame number, performance in relation to it's presence, it singlehandily neutering strategies preying on the 3-/4-color goodstuff decks (aka the classic counters to greedy manabases), narrowing the number of viable alternatives and forcing it way into more and more decks (ANT with DRS is reality).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Lemnear sounds harsh at times, but he means well. Or to destroy, but that's when he starts rapping.

    Architect by day, rapstar by night. He's pretty much the German Hannah Montana. Sometimes he even comes in like a wrecking ball.

  4. #19124

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zulabnar View Post
    You can put on the table good creature without having green (having it only as a splash), so why play green deck?
    Right now you play a green deck for Exploration/Loam/Crop Rotation, or for Glimpse/GSZ/NO. Simply wanting "good creatures" is not a reason to run a green centric deck.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    (ANT with DRS is reality).
    Source on that? Seaching for decks that run LED & DRS I get these two hits:

    https://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15367&d=293458&f=LE
    https://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14573&d=287393&f=LE

    A couple weird builds that made top8 in small events.
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  5. #19125

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I have an idea: The Island Restricted List for Legacy, which could start with these cards on it:
    - DRS
    - Top

    The rule of this list: you can't play these cards in your deck if your deck contains lands with an Island subtype.

    Format solved...


    /sarcasm

  6. #19126

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    Teeg plus Mom was decent for a time. Unfortunately we got an uninteractive removal spell that ignores mom so we could remove an uninteractive card from commander.
    Oh I love me some Maverick players... "I have created this board state to make sure my opponent cannot interact with me with neither removal nor sweepers. It is so unfair that there exist a spell which still lets my opponent interact. Only I should be able to do uninteractivr stuff"

    The hipocracy...
    Last edited by MorphBerlin; 05-02-2018 at 09:26 AM.

  7. #19127
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Kozilek's Return, sacrifice effects, toxic deluge, deed. Show and tell to just ignore them.

    I'm sure there's a bunch more but those were the first to come to mind.
    :)

    Karakas too (edit)
    -rob

  8. #19128
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crimhead View Post
    Source on that? Seaching for decks that run LED & DRS I get these
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Lemnear sounds harsh at times, but he means well. Or to destroy, but that's when he starts rapping.

    Architect by day, rapstar by night. He's pretty much the German Hannah Montana. Sometimes he even comes in like a wrecking ball.

  9. #19129
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crimhead View Post
    Source on that? Seaching for decks that run LED & DRS I get these two hits:

    https://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15367&d=293458&f=LE
    https://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14573&d=287393&f=LE

    A couple weird builds that made top8 in small events.
    I ask the same question to Lemnear.
    1 DRS in Spanish Inquisition is an established way for Summoner's Pact -> Chrome Mox imprint, while being 1 cc as Culling the Weak fodder. They used to play Odious Trow before DRS.
    It sounds absurd if one extrapolates this to DRS needed in Storm.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nielsie View Post
    I have an idea: The Island Restricted List for Legacy, which could start with these cards on it:
    - DRS
    - Top

    The rule of this list: you can't play these cards in your deck if your deck contains lands with an Island subtype.

    Format solved...


    /sarcasm
    I actually like this idea, although banning Brainstorm would achieve the same in a much more elegant way. But of course we are not allowed to discuss Brainstorm banning, while the blue mages want a B/G card getting the axe.
    On the Sep 2011 Ban List Updates,
    Quote Originally Posted by Lancer View Post
    Yep DCI/Wizards never fails... those that cry the loudest wins!

  10. #19130
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Fuck the net has changed everything from selling, trading, organising, deck construction and even meeting for testing and play. Yes, I think there qualitative difference between then and now, and you know what, your the only one I have ever meet who disagrees. Ever. And your wrong.
    So do your part and shut down this site, then!

    You know what? I lived in freakin' nowhere in the late 90s. But as soon as I got over the initial "OMG CRAW WURM", my first tournament deck was Erhnamgeddon. My local shop got the Black Summer right on time. We learned how to Impulse like a pro! We got the Combo Winter, too, and some of us embraced it and some of us fought it (I lost in top 8 of States that year, playing Suicide Black in a sea of combo).

    People figured out what was good and posted about it on the internet, and we read about it on the internet. We went to PTQs and played with and against decks we'd read about and tested... from the internet. We went to States and Regionals and played with and against decks we'd read about and tested... from the internet. First it was rec.games.trading-cards, then it was the Dojo. We didn't need the Duelist to tell us what was good, and we didn't listen to InQuest (we read it for the funny comics).

    This has always been a part of the game. It has always homogenized the competitive metagame. What has changed in recent years is Wizards of the Coast deciding that all the anti-"netdecking" people were right, and trying to hide as much data as possible from the internet in order to keep things from getting "solved too quickly". And what's changed in Legacy is, as I said, people treating it like a competitive format and doing what every other competitive format already went through years and years ago.

    The genie can't go back in the bottle. It's been out for decades now. When Wizards prints busted stuff, the relevant formats homogenize super fast, and have done so for as long as I've been playing.

    Now. Want a better Legacy format? Ban Deathrite Shaman. Take a long hard look at the delve critters and Gitaxian Probe. Unban some stuff. Mind Twist, yes. Mana Drain, probably (dig back in the thread where I explained why it could be a good thing for the format). One of the currently-banned combo engines. Earthcraft is a perennial favorite, but I keep looking at some of the supposedly really busted stuff and thinking it's probably safe nowadays with the way people understand the format better, so heck, I'd unban Hermit Druid, too, and maybe even Bargain.

    But the endless "ban blue cards until Kird Ape is good again" stuff I see over and over in this thread, and the endless "go back in time 20 years and forbid posting decklists on the internet" stuff you're on about, those aren't useful.

  11. #19131

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by MorphBerlin View Post
    Oh I love me some Maverick players... "I have created this board state to make sure my opponent cannot interact with me with neither removal nor sweepers. It is so unfair that there exist a spell which still lets my opponent interact. Only I should be able to do uninteractivr stuff"

    The hipocracy...
    Really... The whole deck is Play uncounterable creatures (for free), waste you, port you on upkeep, make everything cost more, and lock you out with a 2/1 needle.
    Quote Originally Posted by SaberTooth View Post
    if brainstorm is banned, legacy will lost his heart

  12. #19132
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by tsabo_tavoc View Post
    I ask the same question to Lemnear.

    It sounds absurd if one extrapolates this to DRS needed in Storm.
    I didn't say it's "needed". I know that someone plays them in ANT on MTGO in place of Lotus Petals.

    It's a mere anecdote of how people try to fit the card into anything. The last time I saw similar was with the SFM package
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Lemnear sounds harsh at times, but he means well. Or to destroy, but that's when he starts rapping.

    Architect by day, rapstar by night. He's pretty much the German Hannah Montana. Sometimes he even comes in like a wrecking ball.

  13. #19133
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    I didn't say it's "needed". I know that someone plays them in ANT on MTGO in place of Lotus Petals.

    It's a mere anecdote of how people try to fit the card into anything. The last time I saw similar was with the SFM package
    And remember when people were trying to put Tarmogoyf in Merfolk?

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  14. #19134
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by ubernostrum View Post
    This has always been a part of the game.
    You understand that my comment was that it is more common now than it was and my comment was never that it was not used right? Like, nothing you are saying, at all, is in any way impacting that. I never claimed the net was not used, your reading that into my post. I said that the net was not as popular.

    And slightly off topic, but for me personally I did not really have a lot of access to the net until high school. Even then you needed to get a computer pass, then pay the school to use it. Like 2 dollars for some amount of time from memory. I was playing then but that does not mean I had access to the internet as you did. I did not have the ability to buy cards that people at my local store did not have. That was just me. That was in early 2000s. Shit has changed since then, talking about 09, here in Australia the iPhone 3G was new, the internet speeds where so low most people where not online much and data caps meant you did not have a lot of access to the net for long at any one time. I was in my 20s then too so its not like I did not have the ability to try, there was just not the point. As the iPhone gained traction, then Android the access to the net really shot up, because now the barrier to entry was so much lower. Things started to really take off.

    So I would repeat myself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    I don't think the internet was as popular in magic then as it was now
    The reasons I say this are many, but at its most basic smartphones gained ground, the infrastructure was upgraded, the sites dedicated to this issue became more streamlined and easy to access as well as understand. (Goldfish is great for that). I never ever ever said that the net was not part of the game, I said it was not a popular in 09 as it is now. I stand by that and have honestly no idea what your trying to gain by arguing against what is a reasonable point to make.
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  15. #19135

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Star|Scream View Post
    Really... The whole deck is Play uncounterable creatures (for free), waste you, port you on upkeep, make everything cost more, and lock you out with a 2/1 needle.
    That's the exact point he is making. He even put " " to showcase the hypocrisy

  16. #19136

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Yes, I know. I was agreeing with OP
    Quote Originally Posted by SaberTooth View Post
    if brainstorm is banned, legacy will lost his heart

  17. #19137
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Maverick plays port, vial, and revoker? Was I playing a bad version of the deck for 3 years?
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  18. #19138

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Well yes, I'd be willing to say any version of that deck has been bad since 2012.
    Quote Originally Posted by SaberTooth View Post
    if brainstorm is banned, legacy will lost his heart

  19. #19139
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    Maverick plays port, vial, and revoker? Was I playing a bad version of the deck for 3 years?
    I was thinking the same...

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  20. #19140

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Lol the deck knowledge in this thread is through the roof. A lot of discussions start to make sense to me now that DnT and Maverick are apparently the same deck haha.

    On another note, something that really bothers me. Stop calling DnT or Goblins aggro decks, they aren't, they are creature-control decks.

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