All B/R update speculation.

[Crimhead]

Lol the deck knowledge in this thread is through the roof. A lot of discussions start to make sense to me now that DnT and Maverick are apparently the same deck haha.

Yeah, it's pretty outrageous how people consider different decks to be the same deck on the bases of a handful of shared cards. But at least these decks actually have a similar lar play-styles. Unlike the blue decks that constantly suffer this kind of superficial analysis.

I suspect that poster just got mixed-up though.

On another note, something that really bothers me. Stop calling DnT or Goblins aggro decks, they aren't, they are creature-control decks.

Totally agree. I think we see so little in pure aggro (or hard control) that people have started to call aggro/control hybrids either aggro or control now.

For the record I think Goblins used to be a lot more aggressive, but gravitated more towards midrange (red D&T) in it's dying days (running Ports and splashing for Thalia).

[Star|Scream]

The same people that say having 4 brainstorm 4 ponder 4 fow in your deck makes all the "blue stew" decks the same seem to get quite salty when you suggest that their Mom / Thalia / SFM / STP / Wasteland deck is completely different than the other Mom / Thalia / SFM / STP / Wasteland deck.

I know the difference between D&T and D&T + Green splash. The point I made was still valid.

[DarthVicious]

And remember when people were trying to put Tarmogoyf in Merfolk?

Pepperidge Farm remembers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QM2zcv5AfaM

I member.

[janchu88]

After all if you are annoyed by the current meta, just watch some pre ban Coverage with sdt legal. It is eye opening how broken that shit truly was and how absurdly strong miracles had been. I have my concerns with the current Situation as well but As i recall where we came from suddenly the ease kicks in.

Ps: Do yourself a favor and truly watch some topsturbation. With the Stockholm syndrome things can get messed up when looking at them in retrospect.

[CutthroatCasual]

After all if you are annoyed by the current meta, just watch some pre ban Coverage with sdt legal. It is eye opening how broken that shit truly was and how absurdly strong miracles had been. I have my concerns with the current Situation as well but As i recall where we came from suddenly the ease kicks in.

Ps: Do yourself a favor and truly watch some topsturbation. With the Stockholm syndrome things can get messed up when looking at them in retrospect.

I'd rather watch someone who is a master at Miracles dismantle their opponent over the course of 40 minutes than someone who literally just picked up Grixis Delver a month ago lucksack their way into a win because DRS is busted.

[Rascalyote]

I'd rather watch someone who is a master at Miracles dismantle their opponent over the course of 40 minutes than someone who literally just picked up Grixis Delver a month ago lucksack their way into a win because DRS is busted.

Apparently DRS is lucksack but the miracle mechanic and counterbalance are not ???

Both of these as well as most decks have brain dead plays, but that doesn't mean they can't be hard to play at times and reward good pilots.

[CutthroatCasual]

Apparently DRS is lucksack but the miracle mechanic and counterbalance are not ???

Both of these as well as most decks have brain dead plays, but that doesn't mean they can't be hard to play at times and reward good pilots.

The number of times I've been hellbent with Grixis with no meaningful permanents except DRS and won the game >>> the number of times I've been hellbent with Miracles with no meaningful permanents except Top or CB and won the game

Miracles was/is powerful because every card in the deck worked with each other to form an incredibly synergistic pile of 60 cards. Grixis Delver is powerful because every card in the deck is strong on its own, regardless of what effects the other cards in the deck have. So it stands to reason that any top deck in Grixis Delver will have a higher likelihood of being a stronger card than any top deck in Miracles. Therefore, it's much more likely for one to lucksack out of an unfavorable position with Grixis than with Miracles. That's why Miracles had a higher skill ceiling: because mistakes weren't covered up with powerful draws.

[Ronald Deuce]

The number of times I've been hellbent with Grixis with no meaningful permanents except DRS and won the game >>> the number of times I've been hellbent with Miracles with no meaningful permanents except Top or CB and won the game

Miracles was/is powerful because every card in the deck worked with each other to form an incredibly synergistic pile of 60 cards. Grixis Delver is powerful because every card in the deck is strong on its own, regardless of what effects the other cards in the deck have. So it stands to reason that any top deck in Grixis Delver will have a higher likelihood of being a stronger card than any top deck in Miracles. Therefore, it's much more likely for one to lucksack out of an unfavorable position with Grixis than with Miracles. That's why Miracles had a higher skill ceiling: because mistakes weren't covered up with powerful draws.

No, Miracles was so powerful because Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top (really just Counterbalance, but whatever) gave the standard blue control skeleton infinite countermagic for 0-1 mana with two nonland permanents resolved.

You're right about why Grixis is so strong, but plenty of decks had the same synergy engine Miracles abused—including Grixis. Only one of those decks constituted almost a fifth of the top 8s in the format—again, even when they used abundantly clearly inferior win conditions*—so you're heading down a weird path if you're not looking at what specific cards made that deck excel. And before you refer me to the post I'm quoting, DRS isn't the single card that's doing that.

Much as I hate the debate over it, Brainstorm has a lot more to do with why both decks are good than either CounterTop or Deathrite Shaman does. But Brainstorm isn't pulling BUG Nic Fit into the top tables (much as I wish it would).

*I'd be interested, if anyone has the time or data handy, in knowing what the average differentiation between nonland top-8 Miracles cards was in the months prior to the top ban. I'd bet it was rather less idiosyncratic than any two "Grixis" top 8s are these days.

[Claymore]

I think the SCG Atlanta Classic 1st place Miracles list ran 19 lands. 20 if you count Search for Azcanta.

k.

[Crimhead]

...so you're heading down a weird path if you're not looking at what specific cards made that deck excel. And before you refer me to the post I'm quoting, DRS isn't the single card that's doing that.

I can't see Grixis Delver being nearly so strong without DRS. The deck would take a big hit, and there'd be a lot more reason to run Thresh, Infect, or Prowess instead.

As for Czech control, that deck goes to complete shit without DRS and at the very least has to cut a coulour (though even the 3 colour BUG midrange decks will struggle).

DRS doesn't single handedly power those decks, but it is the major lynchpin in the 4 colour good stuff shells.

[CutthroatCasual]

I can't see Grixis Delver being nearly so strong without DRS. The deck would take a big hit, and there'd be a lot more reason to run Thresh, Infect, or Prowess instead.

As for Czech control, that deck goes to complete shit without DRS and at the very least has to cut a coulour (though even the 3 colour BUG midrange decks will struggle).

DRS doesn't single handedly power those decks, but it is the major lynchpin in the 4 colour good stuff shells.

To add, when a 4c deck can get away with running Blood Moon, you know something needs to be fixed.

[Brainstorm Ape]

Gotta love how decks that plan on regularly casting 3 and 4 drops in Legacy are running 19-20 lands and avoiding manascrew enough to regularly top 8. Feels great when you're playing Jund/Maverick/Dega/whatever with 23-24 lands, plus anywhere from 0-8 dorks, and still get screwed often.

Definitely DRS' fault. Once we ban this creature the format will be nothing but sunshine and daisies. Yep.

[Rascalyote]

To add, when a 4c deck can get away with running Blood Moon, you know something needs to be fixed.

Bloodmoon still hurts 4c, DRS is a lot worse than a bird under a moon. It's just that it absolutely cripples the decks they bring it in against so it's worth it. That's like saying "Wow this deck that focuses on Natural Order and Zenith can get away with playing Gaddock Teeg" Teeg still really hurts your deck, it just hurts your opponent's a lot more.

[CutthroatCasual]

Bloodmoon still hurts 4c, DRS is a lot worse than a bird under a moon. It's just that it absolutely cripples the decks they bring it in against so it's worth it.

You missed the point. The point was: 4c decks shouldn't even think about running a card like Blood Moon. But the fact that they can and still not get hurt by it more than it hurting the other decks (probably not even 3c decks; I see it being brought in against Depths and Grixis Delver) is just absurd no matter how you rationalize it.

That's like saying "Wow this deck that focuses on Natural Order and Zenith can get away with playing Gaddock Teeg" Teeg still really hurts your deck, it just hurts your opponent's a lot more.

Well, no, because you either side out your Natural Order combo or just don't go for the Teeg when you resolve the Natural Order. And the vast majority of your deck is creature spells anyway so you're losing access to a combo kill but not access to your main gameplan of turning dudes sideways.

You don't side out your dual lands when you bring in Blood Moon in Czech Pile.

[tescrin]

Apparently DRS is lucksack but the miracle mechanic and counterbalance are not ???

Both of these as well as most decks have brain dead plays, but that doesn't mean they can't be hard to play at times and reward good pilots.

Indeed, I've seen newbie storm players and newbie Miracles players who just picked up the deck blow out a tournament.
I believe there's some number of RUG Delver guys who have blown out SCGs right after getting the deck going, and I think calling Delver decks brain dead is lame. They're pretty darn interesting/difficult if they're facing their less favorable opponents.

[DarthVicious]

Bloodmoon still hurts 4c, DRS is a lot worse than a bird under a moon. It's just that it absolutely cripples the decks they bring it in against so it's worth it. That's like saying "Wow this deck that focuses on Natural Order and Zenith can get away with playing Gaddock Teeg" Teeg still really hurts your deck, it just hurts your opponent's a lot more.

Chalice in Xerox?
Perish in Elves?
Canonist in Storm?

The world is upside down.

[Crimhead]

Gotta love how decks that plan on regularly casting 3 and 4 drops in Legacy are running 19-20 lands and avoiding manascrew enough to regularly top 8. Feels great when you're playing Jund/Maverick/Dega/whatever with 23-24 lands, plus anywhere from 0-8 dorks, and still get screwed often.

Jund and Maverick were top-dogs in the past, and they are no less consistent now than in their heyday.

If Czech is a better deck than Maverick simply because of BS & Ponder mitigating mana-screw, we would not have had Maverick Summer, because Czech would have already been a better deck!
Midrange decks moved into blue because of new printings.

[Crimhead]

The reasons I say this are many, but at its most basic smartphones gained ground, the infrastructure was upgraded, the sites dedicated to this issue became more streamlined and easy to access as well as understand. (Goldfish is great for that). I never ever ever said that the net was not part of the game, I said it was not a popular in 09 as it is now. I stand by that and have honestly no idea what your trying to gain by arguing against what is a reasonable point to make.

I don't think access to knowledge via the internet has changed much.

Anecdotally, I worked in a hobby store ~15 years ago. Everybody knew Ravager-Affinity was the best deck. The only reason (some) people weren't playing it were:

• Budget.
• A personal preference for a different net-deck (Tooth & Nail, UW Post, etc).
• A desire to brew.

If anything, it's the people who have changed. MTG used to be more social and fun. Today's players are less social, and perhaps that is related to the rise of smart phones. But finding the "best decks" in 2003 was as easy as pointing and clicking.

[Crimhead]

Chalice in Xerox?
Perish in Elves?
Canonist in Storm?

The world is upside down.

How about CotV in a deck whose engine includes 8 1-mana tutors? Happens all the time.
Funny how completely nuking your opponent is a good trade for obsoleting a few of your own cards.

[Crimhead]

You missed the point. The point was: 4c decks shouldn't even think about running a card like Blood Moon.

How about a 2-colour deck with a (very light) splash and no trouble fetching basics for the primary colours? Seeing as we can ignore the splash, that's pretty much what we are looking at.

You don't side out your dual lands when you bring in Blood Moon in Czech Pile.

And so you shouldn't - they still tap for mana and your basics give you enough colour for almost all of your spells.

A more relevant question is: do you side out your 3-colour spells (all 4 of them?) when you side in Moon?