All B/R update speculation.

[morgan_coke]

My preferred bad list additions:

Delver of Secrets
Deathrite Shaman
True Name Nemesis
Leovold of Trest
Every single card with the "Storm" mechanic on it

[Crimhead]

I feel that this is a similar slippery slope like we had then people argued that Miracles isn't a problem by pointing to 12-Post and Eldrazi, which both struggle with their own variance too often.

In the case of the Grixis/4c menace, it's pretty much the same, in case you want to point me to the various stompy decks which emerged in the last months.

As far as I know, nobody is claiming Czech is anywhere near as hard to beat as SDT Miracles in its prime.

In the last 6 months, we've seen Elves in DTB twice, A Stage/Depths deck three times, and a Stompy deck every time. Also, from what I hear Miracles is favoured since the (re)addition of Couterbalance. SDT Miracles didn't have bad matches like this consistently performing so well against the field. Nothing like it.
There is no slippery slope. You could argue that Miracles had insufficient predators. No such case can be made for Czech (edit - unless you are only considering "fair" decks).

[Dice_Box]

Every single card with the "Storm" mechanic on it

Good God yes, I am sick of being killed by Sprouting Vines.

[Brainstorm Ape]

Good God yes, I am sick of being killed by Sprouting Vines.

You laugh now, but one day Valakut Storm will be as feared as Nourishing Lich.

[Crimhead]

Good God yes, I am sick of being killed by Sprouting Vines.

Can we keep Wing Shards?

[Lemnear]

So 4c/Grixis has an already worrying ~21% meta share (according to mtgtop8) and now a 62,5% share in the GP Top8?!

And I thought that Miracles was disgustingly overperforming at it's prime...

[Dice_Box]

Can we start bitching about the deck only after its been top dog for a few years? Seems to be the precedent.

[Lemnear]

Can we start bitching about the deck only after its been top dog for a few years? Seems to be the precedent.

Given DRS was already a force during Miracles reign, I guess it takes only 2 more years and/or a sign on WotCs parking lot. I mark July 2020 im my calendar then.

[ubernostrum]

So 4c/Grixis has an already worrying ~21% meta share (according to mtgtop8) and now a 62,5% share in the GP Top8?!

And I thought that Miracles was disgustingly overperforming at it's prime...

I ran the numbers from tcdecks data back when people called for Miracles to get nerfed, and on average Miracles put around 1 pilot in top 8 per event listed in tcdecks.

The multicolor Deathrite value shell (for lack of a better term) has absolutely obliterated Miracles' performance. But don't worry, it's perfectly all right and there's nothing wrong with the format.

[CutthroatCasual]

It’s always a treat when Lemnear and ubernostrum say what I was going to say before I do.

[MorphBerlin]

That spares out the fact that these decks often run 20 lands and less with 4 of them being wasteland and still don't run into color/mana issues, removing every restriction/tradeoff for cardchoices other decks have to make. You simply run the cream of the crop of every color from 1-4 cc. That makes it hard to beat these decks by default as kiwi mentioned

Most 4c Leovold run 0 Wastelands, some 2 but that is the minority and they will run into mana issues quite often. Even with 0 Wastes you often run into mana issues but in Lemnear Black/White world that never happens of course...

But no lie is to far fetched for Lemnear to make his point.

[Dice_Box]

Attack the argument, not the person.

[CutthroatCasual]

Most 4c Leovold run 0 Wastelands, some 2 but that is the minority and they will run into mana issues quite often. Even with 0 Wastes you often run into mana issues but in Lemnear Black/White world that never happens of course...

But no lie is to far fetched for Lemnear to make his point.

Grixis Delver runs Wasteland. Czech Pile can run Blood Moon.

A counterargument I’ve seen to Grixis Delver decks specifically is that they fold to Blood Moon. Sure, but many decks fold to Blood Moon. And that’s assuming you can catch Grixis Delver with its pants down aka no floating mana no active DRS (for that Decay) no countermagic. At which point if that’s the boardstate then Blood Moon is a nail in the coffin more so than a “I win” button, like it is against many other decks.

[Lemnear]

Most 4c Leovold run 0 Wastelands, some 2 but that is the minority and they will run into mana issues quite often. Even with 0 Wastes you often run into mana issues but in Lemnear Black/White world that never happens of course...

But no lie is to far fetched for Lemnear to make his point.

Pls show me where I talked specifically about "4c Leovold", could you? I am quite sure I made my points about the resiliancy/stability in regards to the wide range of Wasteland+DRS+Blue Shell decks from Grixis to 4c (which can be tempo or midrange variants itself).

It's outright cherrypicking to call me out on a specific variant or an individual decision of players to trim Wastelands. We know that 3-4 colors with DRS and Wastelands do quite well. Where am I so wrong that it deserves another personal attack?

[MorphBerlin]

Pls show me where I talked specifically about "4c Leovold", could you? I am quite sure I made my points about the resiliancy/stability in regards to the wide range of Wasteland+DRS+Blue Shell decks from Grixis to 4c (which can be tempo or midrange variants itself).

It's outright cherrypicking to call me out on a specific variant or an individual decision of players to trim Wastelands. We know that 3-4 colors with DRS and Wastelands do quite well. Where am I so wrong that it deserves another personal attack?

You talked about 20 lands with 4 Wastelands, Pile plays 20 lands 0 Wastes typically. Grixis Delver runs 18 lands 4 Wastelands typically. So you mushed these together to cherrypick for you point. Pile has much harder mana requirments (Jace, K.Command, Leo, Hymn) thats why you see an adapted mana base. Yes these decks are more resilient to mana denial because of DRS. That doesn't mean they don't loose to Bloodmoon, double waste, waste+port+thalia all the time.

4c Plays blood moon? I haven't seen anybody do that recently (with sucess). Grixis Pyro can afford to play Bloodmoon but not pile.

[Finn]

I’m going to hate myself for this in the morning, but I have to know...don’t all of these DRS decks also play Brainstorm, and then lots of other decks also play Brainstorm too? No judgments here atm. I just want to get a feel for this line of argument that DRS has to go. How exactly is it more ubiquitous than Sir Ubiquitous himself?

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

I see what you’re getting at, truly I do, but my response is pillar of the format.

[Crimhead]

I’m going to hate myself for this in the morning, but I have to know...don’t all of these DRS decks also play Brainstorm, and then lots of other decks also play Brainstorm too? No judgments here atm. I just want to get a feel for this line of argument that DRS has to go. How exactly is it more ubiquitous than Sir Ubiquitous himself?

Interestingly, in this last GP's top-8, every BS deck also ran DRS. Obviously that's not representative of the meta, but a fun fact nonetheless.

To answer your question, (and I assume you are new to this thread?), it is not about ubiquity of individual cards. Its about strategic diversity.
(eg) Storm, S&T, and Miracles are distinct decks, and don't contribute to a diversity problem. The biggest threat to diversity in Legacy ATM is the abundance of DRS fair "good-stuff" decks. Yes, they all run BS, but DRS might be a better card to axe if the goal is to curb that specific play-style. Other BS decks don't really enter the conversation if we are focused on strategic diversity.

[Gheizen64]

Elves and mavericks/nic fit/G-valuedecks play DRS and usually 21-22 lands and not 4 colors nor 4 wastelands.

It's BS that allow those stupid 4 color decks to play 18 lands with 4 wastes, find their fetch to fuel their DRS, and generally draw 3 aftering countering your shit with FoWs early on.

Ban BS unban top best format. Miracle got killed for this shit.

[Ace/Homebrew]

To answer your question, (and I assume you are new to this thread?), it is not about ubiquity of individual cards. Its about strategic diversity.

Yeah Finn, who are you? Do you even Magic?