All B/R update speculation.

[Zulabnar]

Elves and mavericks/nic fit/G-valuedecks play DRS and usually 21-22 lands and not 4 colors nor 4 wastelands.

It's BS that allow those stupid 4 color decks to play 18 lands with 4 wastes, find their fetch to fuel their DRS, and generally draw 3 aftering countering your shit with FoWs early on.

Ban BS unban top best format. Miracle got killed for this shit.

Ban both drs and bs.

[CutthroatCasual]

4c Plays blood moon? I haven't seen anybody do that recently (with sucess). Grixis Pyro can afford to play Bloodmoon but not pile.

This was from a last chance trial for GP Seattle IIRC.

[non-inflammable]

Ban BS unban top best format. Miracle got killed for this shit.

Way to go, my brother from another mother, on mother's day...

If brainstorm can't be banned, then deathrite, jund and elves will be more victims sacrificed for the pillar of the format.

#don't be a shill for BS

[Zombie]

We could start a Brainstorm victim list.

[Lemnear]

You talked about 20 lands with 4 Wastelands, Pile plays 20 lands 0 Wastes typically. Grixis Delver runs 18 lands 4 Wastelands typically. So you mushed these together to cherrypick for you point. Pile has much harder mana requirments (Jace, K.Command, Leo, Hymn) thats why you see an adapted mana base. Yes these decks are more resilient to mana denial because of DRS. That doesn't mean they don't loose to Bloodmoon, double waste, waste+port+thalia all the time.

I simply don't think that we need to differ decks based on if they run 18 lands w/4 Wastelands or 20 lands w/2 Wastelands, pick Snapcaster over Pyromancer or Leovold over Gurmag Angler. All these decks are about 70% identical anyways, so why not look at them on a grander scale?

I don't think Bloodmoon, Chalice or D&T are working as gatekeepers if DRS+BlueShell keep overperforming in such a drastic way for months leaving it's predators behind.

4c Plays blood moon? I haven't seen anybody do that recently (with sucess). Grixis Pyro can afford to play Bloodmoon but not pile.

Cutthroat provided the recent winning deck i was refering to. It's value is sure open for debate, but I think running Bloodmoon yourself in a 4c deck by simply squeezing in 2 Basics in addition to DRS displays that pointing to Bloodmoon, Wasteland, etc as counter to these DRS decks is quite farfetched.

[Crimhead]

Yeah Finn, who are you? Do you even Magic?

I know darn well he's not new. Which is exactly why he should have been able to answer his own question.

I answered it for him regardless, but not without a (well earned) passive-aggressive dig.

[Crimhead]

Elves and mavericks/nic fit/G-valuedecks play DRS and usually 21-22 lands and not 4 colors nor 4 wastelands.

Elves doesn't run that many lands, but they run as many as they do because Cradle and Dryad Arbor are non-starts.

The other decks are kind of fringy, but Nic-Fit is a ramp deck, and KotR deck wants lots of lands to abuse KotR

The deck playing 18 lands is a tempo deck, and they always play "close to the ground". Thresh played/plays 18 lands (with 4 Wasteland and 8 fetches!).

Anyway, I don't think it's an issue that Czech, Grixis, and BUG midrange decks are running fewer lands than Nic-Fit! The potential issue here is that there are too many of these decks.
You could hit these decks by banning BS, but a DRS ban would be a better strategy for 2 reasons:

1. DRS is harder to replace. BS is a lot better than Preordain; but not by nearly so much as DRS is better than BOP in a UBRg deck. A DRS ban forces bigger adjustments.
2. Banning BS simultaneously hurts a lot of competing decks. In other words, the offending decks get a little worse in a vacuum, but their challenges also become easier.
   Please don't compare this to splash damage from the SDT ban! None of those decks were putting up the numbers to be relevant to the meta. In fact, had Post been a relevant deck, Miracles could have been held in Check without a ban.
   There is a big difference between a ban that pushes out some fringe decks vs a ban that hits half or more of the best archetypes.

Ban BS unban top best format. Miracle got killed for this shit.

Rumours of its death have been greatly exaggerated.

But taking BS away from Miracles would be a silly way to punish the fair decks!

[jolssoni]

Legacy is starting to remind of Vintage far sooner than I expected, instead of restricted list+Mentor+4 preordain we have the Grixis+green Shell vs lockpieces.dec aimed directly at said cards, some random Dredge and Turbo Depths here and there when the cards line up.

Thing about DRS is that although it has like absolutely no opportunity cost for putting it in your deck just like Brainstorm (since the upside is just too good to care about the occasional Chalice of the Void, that doesn't even always resolve or stick in play postboard), it also homogenizes the format towards the same 80% identical stock, only difference being in your mana curve and whether you aim to win on turn 5-6 or after you land Jace on an empty board. Brainstorm on the other hand is kind of like Bill or Pot of Greed, it just increases your win% by finding the shit you need while being strategy/archetype agnostic so you don't need to play similar but strictly worse cards after you've picked your 56 best ones, but it also has dynamical gameplay and a skill cap to it and can be hated with stuff like Spirit of the Labyrinth and Chains. Cabal Therapy vs Brainstorm in response is one of the most interesting mindgame scenarios you can have in Legacy, in my opinion at least.

A way to think about: if a Birds of Paradise with DRS's exile creature card ability and 2/1 stats came out today we'd all agree RND had lost their minds, and, this is important, DRS is far better than that.

Ban DRS (and make denial not based around t1 Blood Moon an actual thing again), Leovold and TNN, don't allow future supplemental sets to Legacy before a review of the consequences at the very least, unban Earthcraft (unbanning RL cards might not be something they'll ever do but having it in addition to Mind Twist be on the banlist is a joke) to give combo a needed boost.

[Finn]

Crimhead, you really do not want to start with me.

[Crimhead]

Crimhead, you really do not want to start with me.

Ribbing withdrawn.

But in seriousness, you did know the answer to your question (whether you agree or not), and were just trying to stir up shit? Am I wrong?

[Echelon]

Legacy is starting to remind of Vintage far sooner than I expected, instead of restricted list+Mentor+4 preordain we have the Grixis+green Shell vs lockpieces.dec aimed directly at said cards, some random Dredge and Turbo Depths here and there when the cards line up.

Sounds like a good time to play Nic Fit

[jolssoni]

Sounds like a good time to play Nic Fit

You'd think so until your Veteran Explorer gets Forced and/or you lose to True Ape or Young Piss anyway.

[MorphBerlin]

Cutthroat provided the recent winning deck i was refering to. It's value is sure open for debate, but I think running Bloodmoon yourself in a 4c deck by simply squeezing in 2 Basics in addition to DRS displays that pointing to Bloodmoon, Wasteland, etc as counter to these DRS decks is quite farfetched.

This was from a last chance trial for GP Seattle IIRC.

One winning deck from a Trial? That's the whole base for your argument? Laughable... 0/3 C.Pile running Blood Moon in the top16

I just played against somebody on MODO with USeas and Thoughtseizes in his Miracles sideboard, apparently somebody at the GP in Top32 ran Delvers in his miracle sideboard, is that a argument for Delver being bannworthy? Because one guy did it?

[jolssoni]

One winning deck from a Trial? That's the whole base for your argument? Laughable... 0/3 C.Pile running Blood Moon in the top16

I just played against somebody on MODO with USeas and Thoughtseizes in his Miracles sideboard, apparently somebody at the GP in Top32 ran Delvers in his miracle sideboard, is that a argument for Delver being bannworthy? Because one guy did it?

It doesn't matter how common it is/how often 4c players want game vs Dark Depths.dec, the problem is that it's possible to do successfully in the first place. If you're running four colors, then you should lose to an uncontested Blood Moon, not be able to play one yourself.

[Echelon]

You'd think so until your Veteran Explorer gets Forced and/or you lose to True Ape or Young Piss anyway.

A decent Nic Fit list doesn't rely on Explorer triggers and cares very, very little about TNN & YP... So what's your point, exactly..?

[Cartesian]

I read something like this on Reddit: Legacy shifts slowly. Chill.. and, brew instead of complaining.

[Echelon]

I read something like this on Reddit: Legacy shifts slowly. Chill.. and, brew instead of complaining.

Can we sticky this and close the thread?

[Crimhead]

Ban DRS (and make denial not based around t1 Blood Moon an actual thing again)

D&T is DTB, and Lands is still a force in the meta (although it's a bit scarce in the field sometimes because of reasons).

Thing about DRS is... It also homogenizes the format towards the same 80% identical stock...
...Brainstorm on the other hand is... strategy/archetype agnostic...

For anybody still wondering why people want a DRS ban when BS is played in higher numbers; this.

[MorphBerlin]

D&T is DTB, and Lands is still a force in the meta (although it's a bit scarce in the field sometimes because of reasons).


For anybody still wondering why people want a DRS ban when BS is played in higher numbers; this.

At this point the main reason for lands not being played more is simply Tabernacle and 4x Mox Diamond.

If the metagame was so warped by DRS-Mush Lands would shine.

[jolssoni]

D&T is DTB

Because it's the cheapest competitive option that resembles normal Magic, not because it has stellar matchups vs Pile, Delver, Miracles or hell even Storm with a Chrome Mox board. Only top tier deck it's actually good against is Turbo Depths (EDIT: and MonoR Stompy, although that's not a deck, more of a metagame check and a weighed die roll due to games being decided by your opening hand+2 top cards), and sometimes they just go under your Flickerwisp+Waste+Karakas, needle vial rotate for Steppe gg. Online where cost is not an issue to even nearly the same extent as on paper people just bitchslap the deck left and right and the numbers reflect that.