All B/R update speculation.

[MGB]

How safe would it be to unban Sol Ring?

If Sol Ring were legal in Legacy would nearly every deck play it as a 4-of?

I know it sounds like a dumb question, but I'm wondering aloud because this deck I've been playing in Legacy (Eldrazi Post) plays 4 Voltaic Keys that essentially read "Tap: add <2> to your mana pool" if there is at least one Grim Monolith or Basalt Monolith or Thran Dynamo on the battlefield. The more I play with the card, the more I feel like Voltaic Key is very underrated and almost at the same level of power as Sol Ring in the right shell. Obviously, it isn't quite Sol Ring because without a Monolith they are blanks, but if you play enough Monoliths in the deck, the Key is essentially a Sol Ring at least ~85% of the time.

So if you say "Sol Ring is unequivocally broken", that's kind of high praise for Voltaic Key (in the artifact-heavy shell). But how broken is Sol ring, exactly - is it just "good" or "really, really good" in terms of the power level of the banned cards?

[kinda]

How safe would it be to unban Sol Ring?

If Sol Ring were legal in Legacy would nearly every deck play it as a 4-of?

I know it sounds like a dumb question, but I'm wondering aloud because this deck I've been playing in Legacy (Eldrazi Post) plays 4 Voltaic Keys that essentially read "Tap: add <2> to your mana pool" if there is at least one Grim Monolith or Basalt Monolith or Thran Dynamo on the battlefield. The more I play with the card, the more I feel like Voltaic Key is very underrated and almost at the same level of power as Sol Ring in the right shell. Obviously, it isn't quite Sol Ring because without a Monolith they are blanks, but if you play enough Monoliths in the deck, the Key is essentially a Sol Ring at least ~85% of the time.

So if you say "Sol Ring is unequivocally broken", that's kind of high praise for Voltaic Key (in the artifact-heavy shell). But how broken is Sol ring, exactly - is it just "good" or "really, really good" in terms of the power level of the banned cards?

It wouldn't be played as much as brainstorm.

[Dice_Box]

So if you say "Sol Ring is unequivocally broken", that's kind of high praise for Voltaic Key (in the artifact-heavy shell). But how broken is Sol ring, exactly - is it just "good" or "really, really good" in terms of the power level of the banned cards?

There will be others who say this more eloquently than myself. Sol Ring would not be good for the format. Even if it did "Nothing" in coloured decks, the power it hands to the kinds of colourless decks I personally play would make them more of a bitch to play against them ever.

Stax style decks become far far more able to push consistent broken openers that would not be healthy for the format. Eldrazi would become very hard to answer because of the speed it gained. Both of these things don't look like much at first glance but trust me, as a guy who is always tinkering with Stax, you don't want that seeing strong showings all the time. Legacy would not be pleasant.

The main gain is that cards like Sphere and 3ball become even less fair then they are right now. Because it makes them very simple to cast turn one. Add to that the extra mana for something like Inventor’s Fair and you have a bad day incoming. And I know it sounds like I am throwing a list of card names that see next to no play at you and it may be hard to believe, but unban that card and I swear your going to know them intimately.

[WashableWater1]

How safe would it be to unban Sol Ring?

If Sol Ring were legal in Legacy would nearly every deck play it as a 4-of?

I know it sounds like a dumb question, but I'm wondering aloud because this deck I've been playing in Legacy (Eldrazi Post) plays 4 Voltaic Keys that essentially read "Tap: add <2> to your mana pool" if there is at least one Grim Monolith or Basalt Monolith or Thran Dynamo on the battlefield. The more I play with the card, the more I feel like Voltaic Key is very underrated and almost at the same level of power as Sol Ring in the right shell. Obviously, it isn't quite Sol Ring because without a Monolith they are blanks, but if you play enough Monoliths in the deck, the Key is essentially a Sol Ring at least ~85% of the time.

So if you say "Sol Ring is unequivocally broken", that's kind of high praise for Voltaic Key (in the artifact-heavy shell). But how broken is Sol ring, exactly - is it just "good" or "really, really good" in terms of the power level of the banned cards?

Ah, a more consistent turn 2 Jace then vintage. Or turn two mentor cantrip. Or turn 2 Chandra, torch of defiance without needing to warp your deck around it. Or a more consistent t1 Show and Tell. Sol Ring may not be a 4 of in every deck, but it would be a 4 of in almost every competitive deck.

It wouldn't be played as much as brainstorm.

This is the grade A humor I’ve come to expect from this thread.

[Megadeus]

How safe would it be to unban Sol Ring?

If Sol Ring were legal in Legacy would nearly every deck play it as a 4-of?

I know it sounds like a dumb question, but I'm wondering aloud because this deck I've been playing in Legacy (Eldrazi Post) plays 4 Voltaic Keys that essentially read "Tap: add <2> to your mana pool" if there is at least one Grim Monolith or Basalt Monolith or Thran Dynamo on the battlefield. The more I play with the card, the more I feel like Voltaic Key is very underrated and almost at the same level of power as Sol Ring in the right shell. Obviously, it isn't quite Sol Ring because without a Monolith they are blanks, but if you play enough Monoliths in the deck, the Key is essentially a Sol Ring at least ~85% of the time.

So if you say "Sol Ring is unequivocally broken", that's kind of high praise for Voltaic Key (in the artifact-heavy shell). But how broken is Sol ring, exactly - is it just "good" or "really, really good" in terms of the power level of the banned cards?

I mean if you're saying voltaic key is as good as Sol ring with monolith does that mean ancestral vision is as good as recall because as foretold exists?

[DarthVicious]

How safe would it be to unban Sol Ring?

About as safe as drinking gasoline.

[Lemnear]

Monolith + Key is a 2-card-combo adding mana with 2 pieces doing next to nothing by themselves. Sol Ring is blatant mana acceleration and would be played in any deck which can burn a decent amount of colorless mana like any Eldrazi, Artifact, Stompy, Storm, SnT, midrange, etc deck. I think it would end up at metagame numbers between DRS and Brainstorm, as it has literally no color restriction at all, delivers a bigger acceleration and opening with Sol Ring fucks over most tempo decks on the other end of the table.

I think even Mana Vault would be safer, given it's use use is more restrictive

[Stevestamopz]

Yeah, because one is banned and the other is a trashy sidetrait in a deck losing to next to every discard, counter and resistor in the format

Goblin Recruiter is banned? Wow, fuck! Tell me more!

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I play Key mainly to act as a Sol Ring in Eldrazi-Post decks. So let me put it this way: I'm spending two cards, one of which is completely useless without the other, to build my own Sol Ring in a deck that also believes it's best turn one play is to shut off even casting key. Not having to build the Sol Ring myself would be a huge boon.

[kinda]

Can we reset the poll in here to see what people would like to happen in July? Apparently making a new thread with a poll is not allowed.

[Finn]

Kinda, don't take it personally. Ban discussions are routinely nasty, ill-informed, and fruitless. Experience has taught us all to keep the awful in a single, quarantined basket. Box was just being sensible. It might be cool to get a new poll though.

BTW, I say don't ban anything. Print useful cards that are designed from the ground up to diminish the hold Brainstorm, fetchlands, and DRS have on Legacy. There truly is no downside to this at all, and plenty of different upsides.

[kinda]

I get it, still think a new poll would be interesting though.

[Bithlord]

Print useful cards that are designed from the ground up to diminish the hold Brainstorm, fetchlands, and DRS have on Legacy.

More importantly, print them in colors *OTHER THAN BLUE*.

[MechTactical]

I get it, still think a new poll would be interesting though.

yes, but make two polls: unban/ban.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

More importantly, print them in colors *OTHER THAN BLUE*.

In fact, make them things blue would actively distance themselves from playing. The problem with non-blue spells (which is incredibly obvious in Czech Pile, and a somewhat lesser extent, deathblade and 3c delver) is that blue just treats every other color as a splash. Therefore, make them good for their color/non-blue guilds/non-blue wedges, but actively bad for the color blue.

[Bithlord]

In fact, make them things blue would actively distance themselves from playing. The problem with non-blue spells (which is incredibly obvious in Czech Pile, and a somewhat lesser extent, deathblade and 3c delver) is that blue just treats every other color as a splash. Therefore, make them good for their color/non-blue guilds/non-blue wedges, but actively bad for the color blue.

That is much harder to do. In general, though, I think magic developers are *highly* undervaluing the restrictiveness of 2, or even three of a single color in the mana cost. A RRR card (e.g. CHainwhirler) doesn't really fit in any deck other than very heavy red. So, make the anti-blue cards have that sort of cost. Fetches + DRS alleviate that pressure somewhat, but it's still there.

Also, in general, I think WotC could do to accidentally leave "cannot be countered" on a lot of permanents moving forward.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

That is much harder to do.

Well, sure, but that's the thing, right? If it were easy, it would already be done and we'd all live in magic Christmas land and everything would be peachy.

In general, though, I think magic developers are *highly* undervaluing the restrictiveness of 2, or even three of a single color in the mana cost. A RRR card (e.g. CHainwhirler) doesn't really fit in any deck other than very heavy red. So, make the anti-blue cards have that sort of cost. Fetches + DRS alleviate that pressure somewhat, but it's still there.

Also, in general, I think WotC could do to accidentally leave "cannot be countered" on a lot of permanents moving forward.

Eh, 3cmc cards are already underplayed in legacy (except in DnT where half of the spells cost 3 ), I don't have a good solution, but I can't imagine making things that already cost 3 mana harder to play will fix the problem.

[Bithlord]

Eh, 3cmc cards are already underplayed in legacy (except in DnT where half of the spells cost 3 ), I don't have a good solution, but I can't imagine making things that already cost 3 mana harder to play will fix the problem.

True, but I still think there's ways in there with heavy color requirements, perhaps even non-traditional color requirements (e.g., while you control no blue permanents, X cool thing happens, on a red or green permanent). MOAR color hate! :P.

[Dice_Box]

The answer is never simple, hate cards often do more damage to formats then intended or just see no play. Personally I like something that has an unreasonable cost to play it but is cheep. The new Orb is a great example. One of the clauses, the Lands one, means Shops can't run it. So we have another Sphere effect that is not played in the decks that normally abused them.

Imagine if you would a card that made shit cost more that you can play for one colourless, but it's clause was that you, it's controller, can't play Non White Spells. Sure, that's really only going in DnT, but it's sure as fuck the only place it's going.

[Barook]

The answer is never simple, hate cards often do more damage to formats then intended or just see no play. Personally I like something that has an unreasonable cost to play it but is cheep. The new Orb is a great example. One of the clauses, the Lands one, means Shops can't run it. So we have another Sphere effect that is not played in the decks that normally abused them.

Imagine if you would a card that made shit cost more that you can play for one colourless, but it's clause was that you, it's controller, can't play Non White Spells. Sure, that's really only going in DnT, but it's sure as fuck the only place it's going.

Symmetry would help alot to keep hate cards in check. Except Wizards in their stupid "feel-good" design moves exactly away from that to solutions that only affect one side more often than not.