All B/R update speculation.

[Megadeus]

Symmetry would help alot to keep hate cards in check. Except Wizards in their stupid "feel-good" design moves exactly away from that to solutions that only affect one side more often than not.

Agree here. Symmetrical effects are important imo to keep certain cards balanced and not becoming Wars to see who finds the card first to hate the other out. Like if Leovold were symmetrical you might actually have to think about whether or not you're in a position to actually cast it kind of like Standstill.

[Finn]

Not hate cards. Cards that don't play well with cantrips.

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Skeletons in the Closet

Instant
Reveal at the top x cards of your library where x is the number of cards in target opponent's graveyard. You may reveal a permanent card from among them. Put that card into your hand and the rest in your graveyard. If you reveal a blue card, your opponent may copy this spell.
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Too Many Secrets
x
Sorcery
Reveal the top x cards from target opponent's library and reveal the top x cards from your library. If your opponent has more instant and sorcery cards revealed in this way than you, add to your mana pool for each instant and sorcery card revealed from that opponent's library. That mana may only be used to cast creature spells. You may shuffle any number of libraries.
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Or whatever. These are simple to design.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Kinda, don't take it personally. Ban discussions are routinely nasty, ill-informed, and fruitless. Experience has taught us all to keep the awful in a single, quarantined basket. Box was just being sensible. It might be cool to get a new poll though.

BTW, I say don't ban anything. Print useful cards that are designed from the ground up to diminish the hold Brainstorm, fetchlands, and DRS have on Legacy. There truly is no downside to this at all, and plenty of different upsides.

Lucky for you that card already exists. Welcome back...mental misstep.

[Gheizen64]

Maybe we could print a powerful engine that requires both an High Number of creatures in ur deck , as well as a significant colored non blue mana investment so that the cantrip cartel can't play it. A 2 mana enchantment maybe to make it still vulnerable to daze even on the play? And G to activate, maybe pitching a creature to fetch another one , so u Need about 30 creatures for It to be good?

[Lemnear]

Maybe we could print a powerful engine that requires both an High Number of creatures in ur deck , as well as a significant colored non blue mana investment so that the cantrip cartel can't play it. A 2 mana enchantment maybe to make it still vulnerable to daze even on the play? And G to activate, maybe pitching a creature to fetch another one , so u Need about 30 creatures for It to be good?

Sounds great. Maybe one which also has a history being played with manadorks like DRS and the Xerox shell as well, because Ponder+Brainstorm doesn't require you to run 30 creatures. Is there such a card?

[EviL668-2]

Is there such a card?

I do not know! But Birthing Pod is pretty close!

[Matsu]

I do not know! But Birthing Pod is pretty close!

Looks similar to Survival of the Fittest.

[Megadeus]

Evolutionary Leap?

[Mr. Safety]

I remember when Survival was banned, and within a short period of time Green Sun's Zenith was printed. This spawned at least 2 new decks (Maverick and Nic Fit.) Those decks might have existed pre-GSZ, but GSZ is the glue that holds those decks together. Elves slotted GSZ into their deck, and it floats in/out of decks-to-beat. Let sleeping Survival lie, I say.

I think what would really help the format is more versions of hard-hate, like Choke, or other non-blue manipulation tools. Sylvan Library comes to mind, as well as Mirri's Guile, but those get used in some blue decks as well. I'm curious what it would look like for green/red/black/white to have something as powerful as Ponder/Brainstorm but *couldn't* be slotted into a blue shell. Maybe something requiring basic lands (that aren't Island)?

Shaman's Foreboding G
Sorcery
Key word - heritage or some bullshit (only basic lands can be used to play this card.)
Look at the top 4 cards of your library, you may put them back in any order. You may shuffle your library. Draw a card.

TL;DR - almost all of the different effects of magic have gone into other colors at some point or another. It would be interesting to take the library manipulation/draw effect and spread it out amongst the other colors in equal weight; it could allow for mono-color decks to be better and take pressure off of players to play true dual mana-bases. If it isn't obvious, I think banning is the wrong path to take. WOTC needs to get their head out of their ass, design cards for legacy, and balance them appropriately for the format. Hell, I'd even take a few more mistakes similar to Mental Misstep if it meant they were at least trying.

[Bithlord]

I want keyword - heritage or some bullshit to be evergreen. I really do.

[Matsu]

I remember when Survival was banned, and within a short period of time Green Sun's Zenith was printed. This spawned at least 2 new decks (Maverick and Nic Fit.) Those decks might have existed pre-GSZ, but GSZ is the glue that holds those decks together. Elves slotted GSZ into their deck, and it floats in/out of decks-to-beat. Let sleeping Survival lie, I say.

I think what would really help the format is more versions of hard-hate, like Choke, or other non-blue manipulation tools. Sylvan Library comes to mind, as well as Mirri's Guile, but those get used in some blue decks as well. I'm curious what it would look like for green/red/black/white to have something as powerful as Ponder/Brainstorm but *couldn't* be slotted into a blue shell. Maybe something requiring basic lands (that aren't Island)?

Shaman's Foreboding G
Sorcery
Key word - heritage or some bullshit (only basic lands can be used to play this card.)
Look at the top 4 cards of your library, you may put them back in any order. You may shuffle your library. Draw a card.

TL;DR - almost all of the different effects of magic have gone into other colors at some point or another. It would be interesting to take the library manipulation/draw effect and spread it out amongst the other colors in equal weight; it could allow for mono-color decks to be better and take pressure off of players to play true dual mana-bases. If it isn't obvious, I think banning is the wrong path to take. WOTC needs to get their head out of their ass, design cards for legacy, and balance them appropriately for the format. Hell, I'd even take a few more mistakes similar to Mental Misstep if it meant they were at least trying.

Just try Ancient Stirrings and Oath of Nissa.

[Bithlord]

Just try Ancient Stirings and Oath of Nissa.

Imagine if Ponder said "you may reveal an instant or sorcery among them and put it into your hand" instead of "draw 1". It would *still* be way better than either of those. In order for the drawback to be not as painful, they need to dig you deeper into your deck, or give you better information, or both.

[pinkfrosting]

Shaman's Foreboding G
Sorcery
Key word - heritage or some bullshit (only basic lands can be used to play this card.)
Look at the top 4 cards of your library, you may put them back in any order. You may shuffle your library. Draw a card.

I like this and find it a lot more elegant than some suggestions like "can't be played if your deck contains a blue card." Although still a little ugly from a design perspective, I also wouldn't mind permanents that have, "if you play a blue card, sacrifice ~".

[Lemnear]

Imagine if Ponder said "you may reveal an instant or sorcery among them and put it into your hand" instead of "draw 1". It would *still* be way better than either of those. In order for the drawback to be not as painful, they need to dig you deeper into your deck, or give you better information, or both.

I dont think Ponder would be played at all with that limitation.

The fundamental perk of Xerox is cheating on the amount of lands you have to run in order to minimize "worthless draws" in the lategame. A Ponder which isn't able to grab threats nor lands, is worse than Preordain in Legacy. This card would be limited to Vintage or Modern Storm at best.

Edit: To go one step further, i think that a cantrip able to grab creatures/lands is better for the average deck than one grabbing instants/sorceries in Legacy. To be frank: Most instants/Sorceries played in Legacy are either cantrips or disruption anyways, so if you are only able to grab instant/sorcery, the odds are very high that you cantrip into cantrips only

[Zombie]

I dont think Ponder would be played at all with that limitation.

The fundamental perk of Xerox is cheating on the amount of lands you have to run in order to minimize "worthless draws" in the lategame. A Ponder which isn't able to grab threats nor lands, is worse than Preordain in Legacy. This card would be limited to Vintage or Modern Storm at best.

Edit: To go one step further, i think that a cantrip able to grab creatures/lands is better for the average deck than one grabbing instants/sorceries in Legacy. To be frank: Most instants/Sorceries played in Legacy are either cantrips or disruption anyways, so if you are only able to grab instant/sorcery, the odds are very high that you cantrip into cantrips only

Yea, and being able to cantrip/draw into more cantrips and draw is precisely the one thing they design green cantrips/draw to never be able to do: Most actively throw other darw spells to the bottom of the deck (Vessel of Nascency and Harmonize excepted, where Vessel is clunky as fuck and Harmonize costs a fortune in mana). As a result, these draw spells are almost never played in green creature-heavy decks since they fail to constitute an engine and aren't able to increase the quality of subsequent draws the same way their blue counterparts do.

[Lemnear]

Yea, and being able to cantrip/draw into more cantrips and draw is precisely the one thing they design green cantrips/draw to never be able to do: Most actively throw other darw spells to the bottom of the deck (Vessel of Nascency and Harmonize excepted, where Vessel is clunky as fuck and Harmonize costs a fortune in mana). As a result, these draw spells are almost never played in green creature-heavy decks since they fail to constitute an engine and aren't able to increase the quality of subsequent draws the same way their blue counterparts do.

Unless you play with Delve or t.hold, chaining cantrips isn't quite an engine by itself. The issue green draw manipulation faces is being kinda clunky just like Sylvan Library, M.Guile, etc, cost 2+ mana or are very narrow in regards to cards it can pick. Oath of Nissa is a perfectly fine card though, which would be used a lot more, if non-blue, non-prison decks had any foot on the ground.

[BenBleiweiss]

https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...ate-2018-07-02

[Amazingxkcd]

Wheeeellppppp

[Bithlord]

Huh. neat.

[Skyl3lazer]

tabernacle 4k by next week