All B/R update speculation.

[BirdsOfParadise]

I think that if fetch lands do get banned, it would shake up the format so fundamentally that all bets would be off. I really feel that it would be like 2005 all over again. And let me tell you. That was an amazing time.

Although banning fetches would be a radical step --- maybe too radical for Wizards ever to take it --- I like where you and Lemnear have been going with this. Drawback-free dual lands and (practically) drawback-free fetches that can each find any of seven color pairs amount to a design mistake in the sense that they crowd out all mana-fixing strategies that have strategic trade-offs. Add to this chokehold on mana-fixing strategies the fact that they break Brainstorm, DRS, SDT, and Delve cards, and it's easy to see the grass being greener in a world where people play fastlands, checklands, shocklands, and so on. I don't recall Legacy as far back as 2005, but I was definitely lurking in 2008, and at that time the format felt like it had more room to breathe.

It would make sense for people to run casual tournaments with an alternate-Legacy banned list (fetches and Brainstorm banned, several things including DRS unbanned) to see whether that format has a substantially different feeling and whether it avoids being the same as Modern. (On both counts I think it would.)

[kombatkiwi]

Brain geniouses: "Terminus was the correct ban, not top"
Brain geniouses, later: "Wtf, why doesn't wizards print cheap wraths"

The main thing i've taken away from development in playing a bunch of standard on Arena is that making wraths cost 5 and rampant growths cost 3 is really shitty for the game overall.

Are we just ignoring the fact that UW control with 0 creatures is a tier 1 standard deck

I think it's their aversion to universal answers. The problem is that all threats are always universal.

Universal answers are dull because if they're overcosted compared to the threats then they're near-worthless and if they're undercosted compared to the threats then they're overpowered. The whole point about answers being narrow is that you have to actually put some thought into building your deck and you get paid off when your opponents' threats line up against your answers

Like, do you want them to print Counterspell in standard? Disallow already exists and is good enough when all the threats cost 3+ mana anyway
The last time Mana Leak was in standard it made delver tier 0

[Brainstorm Ape]

The last time Mana Leak was in standard it made delver tier 0

I don't disagree with the rest of the stuff you're saying, but Mana Leak didn't do shit as far as U/W Delver was concerned. I'll quote a Sourcer Emeritus on this:

Anyone who complains Mana Leak is too powerful is an idiot. This includes Wizards. Oh a Standard deck has Hexproof creatures and we didn't realize Hexproof is about 10x better than Shroud so it's all undercosted. Standard has Git Probe, Thought Scour, and Ponder. Standard has equipment for the hexproof creatures to carry. Standard has a free burn spell and a black spell that can be played by any color. Oh standard also has a free counterspell and Delver. Standard also has a flash creature that allows all these spells to be replayed. Standard also has a 3/4 flyer with flash that negates removal blinks a creature (including Snapcaster) and allows for the most annoying combat tricks in recent memory. Did I mention all these cards are in the same deck, oh and it runs Delver, of course. Oh by the way the problem with Standard right now is Mana Leak. Seriously about the least aware thing Wizards has ever said IMO.

[kombatkiwi]

I don't disagree with the rest of the stuff you're saying, but Mana Leak didn't do shit as far as U/W Delver was concerned. I'll quote a Sourcer Emeritus on this:

I agree that 'Leak made X deck tier 0' was probably a bit hyperbolic but the card was definitely a significant part of what made blue decks dominant in that period
Remember that this was a format without Daze, Wasteland, etc
The next best tempo card was Vapor Snag (which was still played 4x)
Without Leak it would have been much more viable to beat Delver + Snap by going over the top of it, but instead the only reasonable option was playing a deck with 8 Carnophages

Edit: You also have to be a little bit careful with rants like that because they start to lose meaning when you remove them from the context of what the format actually looks like:

Anyone who complains Deathrite Shaman is too powerful is an idiot. This includes Wizards. Oh a Legacydeck has Hexproof 3/1 Merfolk creatures and we didn't realize Progenitus is about 10x better than Shroud so it's undercosted. Legacy has Git Probe, Brainstorm, and Ponder. Legacy has equipment for the hexproof creatures to carry. Legacyhas a free burn spell that deals 4 damage and a black spell that makes the opponent discard 2 random cards for 2 mana. Oh Legacy also has a free counterspell and Delver. Legacy also has a flash wrath for 1 mana that neuters recursion. Legacy also has a 3/3 Elf that shuts down half your opponent's deck and provides value when you remove it. Oh by the way the problem with Legacy right now is Deathrite Shaman. Seriously about the least aware thing Wizards has ever said IMO.

^ Some people in this thread have almost made this argument unironically but I think most others would agree it's a pretty unconvincing way of trying to explain whether a card is too good or not

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

^ Some people in this thread have almost made this argument unironically but I think most others would agree it's a pretty unconvincing way of trying to explain whether a card is too good or not

Madlibs don't work when the outcome is word salad.

[apple713]

I think that if fetch lands do get banned, it would shake up the format so fundamentally that all bets would be off. I really feel that it would be like 2005 all over again. And let me tell you. That was an amazing time.

-The Goblins deck was constructed by dozens of people. It was all very egalitarian. We were trying lots of angles with no map to guide us. Aether Vial with Goblin Ringleader came about as the best strategy for it over time. Nobody even knew which goblins were better than others.

-Landstill was the de facto control deck. The only reason this was true is because it was popular in Vintage at the time. The exact cards in it ranged widely. Again, we had No Idea what would work best.

-Combo was a virtual blank slate. There was Solidarity (High Tide), and IGGy (Ill-Gotten Gains-Tendrils) came out soon after. But it was never that good. This was before Empty the Vaults and Ad Nauseam made TES possible. And there was Belcher, but it killed its user all the time because the search and tutor cards were weak. Lots of old Extended decks were attempted too.

-There were a multitude of attempts at nonblue control decks, but none of them ever quite caught on.

-There were also a variety of strange decks that all used Survival of the Fittest long before Vengevine got it banned. Goblin Welder (my first design and entry into Legacy) and Tradewind Rider were the most popular.

-And then there was Threshold. This was the very first version of what we would call RUG now. It was the best of the early decks but it took us many months to even figure it out. There were just not a lot of people and we were trying to figure out the boundaries as we went.

It was fantastic. It would be my pleasure to get a second chance to experience that.

This was a fantastic time. Many of the current legacy players probably don't remember this time though. The lack of fetch lands limited a players ability to go crazy with colors and it helped keep color identity in check.

Maybe the compromise here is that legacy gets duals but loses fetch lands. Go play modern if you want to spend half of the match shuffling decks.

[Thresh84]

Go play modern if you want to spend half of the match shuffling decks.

LOL... Or maybe you should go play Standard? Fetch lands aren't going anywhere, keep dreaming.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

LOL... Or maybe you should go play Standard? Fetch lands aren't going anywhere, keep dreaming.

Last week 4 people told me that about DRS.

[Brael]

Removing fetches wouldn't do much. You would still have Ponder and Preordain to dig into mana fixing. On top of that, I bet Ancient Stirrings would start seeing a lot of play. All banning fetches would do is eliminate the stupid one off land to splash a color. In exchange, I bet it would massively spike deck prices because everyone would need to be running 12 abu duals, and probably mox diamond.

[apple713]

Removing duals wouldn't do much. You would still have Ponder and Preordain to dig into mana fixing. On top of that, I bet Ancient Stirrings would start seeing a lot of play. All banning fetches would do is eliminate the stupid one off land to splash a color. In exchange, I bet it would massively spike deck prices because everyone would need to be running 12 abu duals, and probably mox diamond.

removing the 1 off land to splash a color is HUGE. That means that you are playing 1 less color and dont get the benefits. Blue is usually that splash and brainstorm is a huge offender of easily being splashed. In addition to fetch lands being banned, DRS is practically worthless because there are not tons of lands in the graveyard. DRS problem solved as a side effect.

[Brael]

removing the 1 off land to splash a color is HUGE. That means that you are playing 1 less color and dont get the benefits. Blue is usually that splash and brainstorm is a huge offender of easily being splashed. In addition to fetch lands being banned, DRS is practically worthless because there are not tons of lands in the graveyard. DRS problem solved as a side effect.

I would love to see the stupid 1 land splash eliminated, but that's a problem in every format where fetches are legal. It's just a side effect of what the lands do.

In the end, even if all you say were accurate I still think that removing fetches would be a negative for the format because of the effect it would have on deck prices. Like it or not, fetches are responsible for knocking off $1000 or more from the cost of most decks in the format. Imagine what would happen if every 3 color deck suddenly needed 12 abu dual lands in addition to some other expensive mana fixing like Mox Diamonds. If it didn't outright kill the format it would severely hinder getting anyone new into the format, if for no other reason than requiring 16 RL cards in every single deck would place a large physical limitation on how many people could play the game.

[Matsu]

I would love to see the stupid 1 land splash eliminated, but that's a problem in every format where fetches are legal. It's just a side effect of what the lands do.

In the end, even if all you say were accurate I still think that removing fetches would be a negative for the format because of the effect it would have on deck prices. Like it or not, fetches are responsible for knocking off $1000 or more from the cost of most decks in the format. Imagine what would happen if every 3 color deck suddenly needed 12 abu dual lands in addition to some other expensive mana fixing like Mox Diamonds. If it didn't outright kill the format it would severely hinder getting anyone new into the format, if for no other reason than requiring 16 RL cards in every single deck would place a large physical limitation on how many people could play the game.

I think i will still build my 4c deck around City of Brass, Reflecting Pool, Grand Coliseum and Mana Confluence then i will add a couple of dual lands to avoid mana screw myself.

[Lemnear]

You however wont get WotC and the playerbase behind that idea because they would all hyperbole into "OMG! EVERY DECK NOW NEEDS 20 DUALS! 8000$ decks!"

In exchange, I bet it would massively spike deck prices because everyone would need to be running 12 abu duals, and probably mox diamond.

Close enough, I guess. :p

In all honest, starting your deck with 12 ABU duals sounds like a fine way to get blown out by Blood Moon or Back to Basics. I think this design is so easily punished, that no one would consider it worth investing.

[phonics]

Removing fetches wouldn't do much. You would still have Ponder and Preordain to dig into mana fixing. On top of that, I bet Ancient Stirrings would start seeing a lot of play. All banning fetches would do is eliminate the stupid one off land to splash a color. In exchange, I bet it would massively spike deck prices because everyone would need to be running 12 abu duals, and probably mox diamond.

Running 12 duals leaves you just as vulnerable (if not more) to the hate strategies that were preying on the 4c decks before the banning, on top of that you don't have the ability to fetch to fix your mana (or get that one-of basic), nor do you have a deathrite to utilize fetches/wastes in the graveyard. On top of this you are running less colors so your deck is more constrained as to what it can run to combat this. So at the very least multicolored decks get weaker while the hate strategies, which are often monocolored, aren't nearly as effected. Ponder and preordain will help yes, but that is like fetching under an Aven Mindcensor, hoping you get the right land (or any land at all). Having stirrings see more play would mean that the format would be opening up, which would be a good thing. People would probably go for City of Brass and Mana Confluence before trying to use Mox Diamond in a non loam deck, likewise with Chrome Mox and combo, which still plays into the strategies that punish greedy mana bases. Filter lands become much more valuable since fixing becomes more of a luxury. I would argue that the format would change inexplicably due to the nature of not having the mana you want as readily as it has been, and the concessions that would be needed to do that.

[Megadeus]

Is the way I view you guys talking about fetches getting banned the same way to guys view me when I say brainstorm is broken and needs a ban? The whole this is a waste of time thing?

[Lemnear]

Is the way I view you guys talking about fetches getting banned the same way to guys view me when I say brainstorm is broken and needs a ban?

I don't think so, because you're the one who wants to ban the Vengevine instead of the Survival. Metaphorically speaking.

[Megadeus]

I don't think so, because you're the one who wants to ban the Vengevine instead of the Survival. Metaphorically speaking.

I should've elaborated. The fact that it won't ever happen is more what I mean

[Lord Seth]

Like, do you want them to print Counterspell in standard?

Yes, if for no other reason than to introduce it into Modern.

But if they were particularly worried about its power level, then bring back Cavern of Souls (which needs a reprint anyway) at the same time to weaken it. Problem solved!

Disallow already exists and is good enough when all the threats cost 3+ mana anyway
The last time Mana Leak was in standard it made delver tier 0

No it didn't.

First, Delver wasn't Tier 0, unless you want to claim decks like Monoblack Devotion and Junk Siege Rhino were Tier 0. It was great, but no more so than is typical for the top deck in Standard; we're not talking Affinity or Caw-Blade levels here (those were actual Tier 0 decks). Also, as Wizards of the Coast themselves observed, Delver's win rate was actually quite reasonable; its dominance of the metagame came from popularity, not strength. Heck, the fact people clearly enjoyed playing the deck as shown by how many people were playing it, and the fact that it was the "highest ever" number of people playing Standard at the time, there's a strong argument that far from being a bad thing, Delver-esque decks should be a big force in Standard.

But even ignoring all of that and accepting Delver as too powerful, to blame Mana Leak for that is silly. How about possibly blaming the namesake for the deck and the fact it co-existed with Ponder? Or Snapcaster Mage, which was so powerful they had to power down Instants and Sorceries in RTR block to compensate, even while there was no Mana Leak? Or any of the other cards that were critical to that deck's success?

Heck, Mana Leak wasn't even an automatic 4-of, some Delver decks played 3 copies instead! (example here, and note this was before Cavern of Souls was printed so don't blame that). Sure, most of them ran the full set, but compare that to the various cards that were automatic 4-ofs. So we're supposed to believe that the card that put the deck over the top was the one that wasn't even always a 4-of rather than the various cards that were always 4-ofs?

And let's not forget that Mana Leak had been in multiple Standards before this point without being a problem. If a card has been in multiple Standards without breaking anything, and then a new overpowered deck emerges that plays that card... maybe the more likely explanation is that it's the new cards that are the problem, not the old one?

Citing Delver as a reason that Mana Leak should not return to Standard is downright silly.

[Whitefaces]

Is the way I view you guys talking about fetches getting banned the same way to guys view me when I say brainstorm is broken and needs a ban? The whole this is a waste of time thing?

Yep, both points are incredibly boring to the rest of us.

[Brael]

Close enough, I guess. :p

In all honest, starting your deck with 12 ABU duals sounds like a fine way to get blown out by Blood Moon or Back to Basics. I think this design is so easily punished, that no one would consider it worth investing.

Those strategies would certainly get more powerful than they already are, but that's also why I included Mox Diamond in the example. That goes a long way towards getting around those locks.

Edit: I think you would also see Ash Barrens suddenly become very playable.