All B/R update speculation.

[kombatkiwi]

It is not being done because all 5 colors rarely contribute to a shared goal. Each color added has diminishing returns. For example, What are you going to add to your deck in the 5the color that you dont already have access to in the other 4 colors?

How about you build a deck with 5 colors under the assumption that you will always have access to the right colors of mana. Then ill build a mana base for you with duals and fetchlands.

Also, i think aluren is 4 colors and there used to be a 5 color zoo deck.

Aluren only plays 1 White or Red dual land for the Recruiters, the rest of the deck is BUG (sometimes there are 1 or 2 white hatebears in the SB)

The most obvious example is that all the 4 colour control decks of the last format would have played Swords to Plowshares instead of Fatal Push if playing 5 colours was totally free (and they even had DRS)

[Lemnear]

// 40 Hauptdeck
// 2 Artifact
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

// 11 Creature
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Monastery Mentor
1 Tombstalker

// 15 Instant
4 Brainstorm
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Counterspell
1 Kolaghan's Command

// 4 Planeswalker
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance

// 8 Sorcery
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Council's Judgment
4 Ponder

, , , , plenty of 3cc+ spells, no acceration, no fix, 20 land slots

Sounds reasonable, but lacks the 1-off Glissa the Traitor for the obligatory double green cost

[MorphBerlin]

, , , , plenty of 3cc+ spells, no acceration, no fix, 20 land slots

Sounds reasonable, but lacks the 1-off Glissa the Traitor for the obligatory double green cost

I am not the one who made the absurd claims that 4 and 5c Decks are constructed "effortlessly" just with duals and fetches. He said give him a deck and he will construct a mana base, I am looking forwad to seeing it!

3 Colors is the limit if you don't have additional help and want to survive 1 Wasteland.

[Lemnear]

I am not the one who made the absurd claims that 4 and 5c Decks are constructed "effortlessly" just with duals and fetches. He said give him a deck and he will construct a mana base, I am looking forwad to seeing it!

3 Colors is the limit if you don't have additional help and want to survive 1 Wasteland.

I am sure we both are aware that the claim was made more alongside the decks we have seen in the past, which ran 1-2 light splashes for certain main- & sideboard techs.

Even DRS decks rarely used green mana aside casting Leovold as DRS was mostly cast off U.Sea and the lifegain rarely needed. Old Shardless decks ran a white splash for SB hatebears; Miracles ran red for Blood Moons; OmniTell black for Discard; etc.

What you did here was just throwing in 1-offs and 2-offs with prohibitive high cmc and color requirements just to ridicule Apples point, that color combos like UWGrb for example would be actually managable with Fetches, duals, cantrips and maybe even Noble Hierarch.

You could have just picked a generic 4c list replacing DRS' with Cruel/Violent Ultimatum for the same effect of pointing to the limits of colorfixing

[Noctalor]

I am sure we both are aware that the claim was made more alongside the decks we have seen in the past, which ran 1-2 light splashes for certain main- & sideboard techs.

Even DRS decks rarely used green mana aside casting Leovold as DRS was mostly cast off U.Sea and the lifegain rarely needed. Old Shardless decks ran a white splash for SB hatebears; Miracles ran red for Blood Moons; OmniTell black for Discard; etc.

What you did here was just throwing in 1-offs and 2-offs with prohibitive high cmc and color requirements just to ridicule Apples point, that color combos like UWGrb for example would be actually managable with Fetches, duals, cantrips and maybe even Noble Hierarch.

You could have just picked a generic 4c list replacing DRS' with Cruel/Violent Ultimatum for the same effect of pointing to the limits of colorfixing

"5c could be run effortlessly" means that fetches + duals could easily support whatever you'd like to i guess.

Which is likely to be untrue because playing 4 hymns alongside 2 more colors is already pushing to the limit

[H]

"5c could be run effortlessly" means that fetches + duals could easily support whatever you'd like to i guess.

Which is likely to be untrue because playing 4 hymns alongside 2 more colors is already pushing to the limit

Hey, it was said as "could be run" not "could actually win a game versus any sort of mana denial."

In this manner, the statement is right, it is a legal method of constructing a Legacy deck. The mana base could be constructed effortlessly, but effort doesn't imply competence or success. So, rightfully, the statement gives us absolutely no meaningful content, while appearing to. All in all, par for the course of this thread.

But hey, maybe your metagame is poor people who don't own playable cards or people who's Standard deck just rotated so they'll play "Legacy," or maybe people from a bizarre realm where Wasteland was never actually printed, or perhaps even a gentleman's club where uncouth things such as mana denial are not tolerated.

[Mr. Safety]

"You can make a reservation, you just can't hold the reservation." - Jerry Seinfeld

You can make 5 colors, you just can't hold onto five colors. Wasteland and Blood Moon have far too much to say about that. Also, today, I'm going deep on Seinfeld quotes. If you make a 5-color soup, be prepared for "No soup for you!"

[Technics]

Back when Dig Through Time was legal, I was able to absolutely crush with 4 color Omni. Why? Because all three of my splashes were "free". You could play basically mono blue, with a discard splash, and 2 more splashes out of the board for Mentor and Pyroblast/Sudden Shock. This was 100% facilitated by the fact I could throw in 1 Tundra but have 10 copies of it after fetches.

[Ronald Deuce]

Everybody knows banning DRS and fetches won't do anything to the best five-color deck ever because that deck doesn't need any of them.

I'm talking, of course, about All Spells.

[MorphBerlin]

I am sure we both are aware that the claim was made more alongside the decks we have seen in the past, which ran 1-2 light splashes for certain main- & sideboard techs.

Even DRS decks rarely used green mana aside casting Leovold as DRS was mostly cast off U.Sea and the lifegain rarely needed. Old Shardless decks ran a white splash for SB hatebears; Miracles ran red for Blood Moons; OmniTell black for Discard; etc.

What you did here was just throwing in 1-offs and 2-offs with prohibitive high cmc and color requirements just to ridicule Apples point, that color combos like UWGrb for example would be actually managable with Fetches, duals, cantrips and maybe even Noble Hierarch.

You could have just picked a generic 4c list replacing DRS' with Cruel/Violent Ultimatum for the same effect of pointing to the limits of colorfixing

The claim was made in an absurd generalistic way which made it totally hyperbolic to make it seem like fetchlands are the root of all evil and color restrictions are nonexistant.

I just gave an equally hyperbolic example of a deck full of legacy staples that exactly proves how false the statment was. 4+c color manabase cannot be done effortlessly, you have to minimize the splash in number of cards and amout of colored mana symbols, add mana dorks/artifacts etc. So you see you have to make an effort to play more than 3 colors because it puts constraints on your deckbuilding. Which, again, proves how redicilous and untrue the claims on the last couple of pages have become... mainly made by 5 people telling each other how bad fetchlands are in circular logic.

[Lemnear]

The claim was made in an absurd generalistic way which made it totally hyperbolic to make it seem like fetchlands are the root of all evil and color restrictions are nonexistant.

I just gave an equally hyperbolic example of a deck full of legacy staples that exactly proves how false the statment was. 4+c color manabase cannot be done effortlessly, you have to minimize the splash in number of cards and amout of colored mana symbols, add mana dorks/artifacts etc. So you see you have to make an effort to play more than 3 colors because it puts constraints on your deckbuilding. Which, again, proves how redicilous and untrue the claims on the last couple of pages have become... mainly made by 5 people telling each other how bad fetchlands are in circular logic.

I am well aware that the claim was too generalistic in the first place, but I think it was kinda unfitting to use a bunch of prohibitive costed cards to adress the underlying point of how easy and elegant splashes are in Legacy, if you just need to throw in a single Tropical into your UW manabase to suddenly have a virtual 9+ green lands. Of course this doesn't work if you plan to to cast some spells against Wasteland, but that sure wasn't the point of Apple. I am certain his point was, that only Fetches allow you to get reliable access to off-colors with that little effort

[Kap'n Cook]

So Dice, can we finally move Shortcake to its rightful DTB home?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

So Dice, can we finally move Shortcake to its rightful DTB home?

Only if they unbanned Top. Seriously, I was building that when top ban happened. I thought it was a great deck. Is there something that makes it work as well as top did?

[tescrin]

I may be a week late but..
The absolute madmen!

This is interesting as I literally entered legacy right around when DRS was printed, so I've never been in a format where it wasn't the best T1 fair play this side of Mongoose or so. Even then, Mongoose was still being used a bit for a couple years.

Glad to see that Combo has to rely on Discard/Hand-Knowledge/Skill a bit more too. Having the constant Probes really annoyed me the last time I was active. It's not that it was so oppressive; it was that it annihilates the point of it being a card game/skill game. It deflated the tension to nothing but a math/logic problem. Cabal Therapy sees a huge win in this, in some sense, because it becomes a card that either requires skill to use, multiple activations, or other discard (or surgical..)

Super interesting, to the point I may have to start cobbling something together again. This is what made Extended and to a lesser degree Standard interesting. The shake-ups of a single card or two that were important changing makes a huge wave through deck construction.

The amount of decks this touches is insane due to DRS's penetration:
* DGA, Mav, Junk, Italia
* BUG, Grixis, 4c Bant, Esper midrange
* BUG, Grixis, 4c Delver
* Loam decks!
* Grave decks can change what they were doing a bit!

The ban-announcement times are, to me, the most exciting times to go to your store; because the game hasn't figured out the search space yet, so you get to see all the wonky shit that people will actually bring rather than just net-decks. It's almost like playing 15 years ago or in casual or w/e, because it is so warped. I realize how stupid this sounds; but Goblins could be a thing without DRS lol. I know.. I know.. SFM. But still; this is a brave new world.

Even if you're upset, this is an amazing shake-up. I think, and yah I'm attempting to look 12 months down the road; but I would almost bet that Thalia becomes oppressive enough to approach the axe in 12 months. We might even start seeing Mox->Thalias coming out. Hell.. I think I know what I'm building if I can get my ass to the local tournies this week :D

I think the only lame thing is that they didn't give us a prisoner exchange. This would've be a perfect time to unban Mind Twist, since you'd be unable to accelerate it as easily.

EDIT:
Does this make Goyf better?!
MY BRAIN AAAGGHHGHHGH!
This is an exciting time to be a legacy player

EDIT2:
Please realize that this is coming from someone who has probably stuck DRS in a couple dozen different decks in the last 7 years or whatever. I'm excited in the same way I was when I sold off my Lilianas. The brew possibilities now that the head of a snake has been chopped off are immense.

[Megadeus]

I think my favorite winner is that fair decks that use the graveyard as an engine (not just delve and loam) don't feel completely awful. Like I don't feel like a moron for trying out stone blade with intuition for therapy and souls anymore

[apple713]

// 40 Hauptdeck
// 2 Artifact
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

// 11 Creature
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Monastery Mentor
1 Tombstalker

// 15 Instant
4 Brainstorm
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Counterspell
1 Kolaghan's Command

// 4 Planeswalker
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance

// 8 Sorcery
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Council's Judgment
4 Ponder

See your mana base below. Although I think you should probably run more than just 20 lands, the deck plays pretty well. I opted for a forest and swamp as basics for abrupt decay under blood moon conditions. If blood moon isn't expected in your meta you can adjust those to maybe an island or plains.

// 60 Maindeck
// 2 Artifact
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

// 11 Creature
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Monastery Mentor
1 Tombstalker

// 15 Instant
4 Brainstorm
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Counterspell
1 Kolaghan's Command

// 20 Land
2 Badlands
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Underground Sea
1 Plateau
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath

// 4 Planeswalker
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance

// 8 Sorcery
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Council's Judgment
4 Ponder

[HammerAndSickled]

For the record, the guy is right: 5c manabases are perfectly doable with the Legacy cardpool, but they aren't being kept down by losing Deathrite, they're being kept down by mana denial. If you told me I wouldn't play against any Wasteland/Blood Moon/Stifle decks I could easily play five colors. In fact, I have at various meaningless weeklies just for shits and giggles. I played 5c Cascadw with BBE/Stoneforge/Shardless/Bob, I played Czech Pile splashing for Stoneforge, I played Miracles with Lim-Duls Vault and Sylvan Library. All those decks functioned fine when you weren't under mana disruption.

if anything, it's the best argument for never banning Wasteland in the format: it's the only thing keeping madmen like me honest.

[MorphBerlin]

See your mana base below. Although I think you should probably run more than just 20 lands, the deck plays pretty well. I opted for a forest and swamp as basics for abrupt decay under blood moon conditions. If blood moon isn't expected in your meta you can adjust those to maybe an island or plains.

// 20 Land
2 Badlands
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Underground Sea
1 Plateau
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath

So this is your "effortlessly" built manabase that "runs pretty well" as in loses 5/10 games to a single wastelands and another 4/10 because it can't cast the right spells at the right time all while using cantrips for nothing esle but finding the right lands? You are making my argument for me

Also running the legacy staples double Badland, Scrubland, Plateau, Forest, Swamp in a 8 Cantrip deck... Man, if this is how you build your legacy decks I hope you are in your weeklys for the beer after Round 1 in the 0-X bracket.

For the record, the guy is right: 5c manabases are perfectly doable with the Legacy cardpool, but they aren't being kept down by losing Deathrite, they're being kept down by mana denial.

Most played cards in Legacy:
[...]
Wasteland: 40%
[...]
Rishadan Port: 6%

So while it could be done with the legacy card pool it cannot be done in the legacy metagame which is what are talking about here. What's the point of making absurd claims ignoring any established facts about the metagame?

"We should ban Fetchlands cause 5c manabase are theoreticaly doable" Yeah, great argument...

[Lemnear]

"We should ban Fetchlands cause 5c manabase are theoreticaly doable" Yeah, great argument...

I am quite sure this wasn't the point of the fetchland discussion in the first place

[Mr. Safety]

I am quite sure this wasn't the point of the fetchland discussion in the first place

Correct, not at all. To summarize, the reason for a fetchland ban:

1) Nearly cost-free shuffling effect, making Brainstorm, Sensei's Divning Top (et al) too good
2) Nearly cost-free graveyard filling, making Deathrite Shaman (and the delve mechanic) too good. See: Treasure Cruise, Dig through Time
3) Time constraints on tournaments would be relieved due to less frequent shuffling
4) Banning fetches would make other dual-land options viable

Alternatively, banning fetches:

1) Makes Brainstorm and Sensei's Divning Top fair, forcing either ETB-tapped lands (Terramorphic Expanse) or deck slots dedicated to shuffling (ie Stoneforge Mystic) Still good, but not too good. Free shuffle effects break these cards in half.
2) Makes Deathrite Shaman unreliable as a mana-source, relegating it closer to Scavenging Ooze in terms of a graveyard hate option
3) Makes Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time more fair, although it could be speculated that even without fetches they may be too good.
4) Each round in a legacy tournament would free up around 10 minutes (conservatively) due to both players shuffling less, on average. (Number is purely speculation, as we haven't seen a fetchless format. Have we seen decks without fetches face off together? Do rounds go faster?)

Paying 1 life is almost insignificant as a cost to fixing mana. We've all seen the percentages for 'deck thinning' when it comes to fetclands, and while it does thin your deck a non-zero amount, it isn't a significant number. In regards to not drawing lands again post-fetch, it is also not significant enough to deter from using 8-10 fetchlands in a deck. The payoff for perfect mana overwhelmingly supersedes the minor opportunity cost of using a fetch/dual mana-base. Most, if not all, users on this forum recognize that 5 colors is possible, but not perfect, even with a fetch/dual base. The opportunity cost goes up when outside threats (Wasteland, Blood Moon) endanger the perfect mana. Alternative methods of fixing mana costs deck slots (Birds, Noble, DRS, even jank like Prismatic Omen and Utopia Sprawl.) Deathrite removed the opportunity cost by unbalancing it; it was also a threat.

Hope that helps. I tried to put them in order of relevance. I know I didn't nail down everything, but that seems to be the general direction of the ban-fetch argument.