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Thread: [Deck] Elven Advantage

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    [Deck] Elven Advantage

    NOTE: Primer in progress. I'll get back to explaining how I usually play the deck, sample hands, notable exclusions and a rough MU analysis later.

    NOTE NOTE: Holy crap I've been supposed to finish this for a while huh. Not really having the time or inclination to do so for the time being though.

    Introduction

    Elven Advantage is a deck archetype I've been working on since the release of Worldwake when the printings of Elf powerhouse cards such as Joraga Warcaller, Elvish Archdruid and Elvish Visionary. At it's core, it's a Aggro/Combo deck with a consistent goldfish around turn 3 and an incredibly potent Tribal card advantage/aggro plan should the game drag on. The main thing setting it apart from similar Elf decks is the extensive use of big mana elves/untappers in conjunction with several hard card advantage engines to generate huge amounts of mana and cards in bursts, translate that into swarms of lord-boosted engine parts and proceed to smash the opponents face in using those.

    Development began with the release of Worldwake when I made a rough draft of the deck and proceeded to (post a thread for it to generate discussion, which promptly fell flat despite an online tournament win by Eldariel using a similar design philosophy). Whilst the deck started off as a comparatively normal ElfBall/Aggro hybrid with a Concordant Crossroads kill I quickly dropped Nettle Sentinel in favor of the slightly slower but fundamentally more powerful and harder to disrupt Big Mana Elf/Untapper engine, never looking back since.

    As one might see from a glance at that thread the core of the deck haven't changed much since then except for playing various Tutors in the 2-4 slots available for those (swapping between Survival, Living Wish and Summoner's Pact). It also shares the cockroach-like quality of decks such as Goblins or Ichorid where the opponent is forced to either race or somehow kill off both every single relevant threat as well as well as somehow shut off all card and tempo advantage engines in order to keep up in the long game. Actually, I would argue that this kind of deck (fast, resilient yet linear and unable to affect the opponents gameplan to any greater degree) constitutes its own archetype along combo, aggro and control but that is another discussion entirely. In order to facilitate this it runs more lands than "normal" ElfBall builds and entirely neglects situationally powerful cards such as the aforementioned Sentinel, Regal Force or "finishers" such as Emrakul/Grapshot/whathaveyou in favor of a smoother manacurve and cards that can be played without existing board presence.

    Back to the present, up until now I've been posting in the current Elfball thread, but since our design philosophies seem to be incompatible I'd like to spark a discussion on the more Tribal Aggro-oriented versions of Elf combo in this thread. The current decklist is just the one I usually play on MWS, if you wan't it complemented with similar tournament decks just PM me and I'll put them up at the end of the primer.

    Current Decklist

    Elven Advantage 2012

    15 Forest
    1 Gaea's Cradle
    1 Dryad Arbor

    2 Llanowar Elves
    1 Fyndhorn Elves
    4 Heritage Druid
    4 Priest of Titania

    4 Joraga Warcaller
    4 Elvish Archdruid
    1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader

    4 Elvish Visionary
    1 Sylvan Messenger

    1 Viridian Zealot
    1 Viridian Shaman

    2 Quirion Ranger
    4 Wirewood Symbiote

    4 Glimpse of Nature
    4 Green Sun's Zenith
    2 Concordant Crossroads

    Sideboard
    4 Krosan Grip
    1 Scavenging Ooze
    4 Faerie Macabre
    1 Emrakul
    5 Meta Hate Cards

    Maindeck mana curve:
    1cc 20*
    2cc 13*
    3cc 13*
    4cc 6*
    5cc 8*
    7cc+ 4*

    *Counting Joraga/GSZ at all their playable values

    Card Explanations

    Maindeck

    Forest: I cannot even begin to underline how important it is to play a respectable number (13+ at the very least) of initial mana sources in this sort of deck - in short, making land drops (and by extension playing lands) is awesome in a deck with a mana curve such as this one. Playing forests keeps you from mulling into oblivion. Playing forests allows you to curve into your card advantage and business in the face of sweepers and spot removal. Most importantly, making your land drops allows you to actually play around sideboarded hate cards and avoid overcommitting games 2 & 3.

    Gaea's Cradle: In effect this complements Archdruid & Priest as your 9th way of making retarded amounts of mana quickly, and helps tremendously if you're trying to combo out cold with Heritage Druid as well as allowing for retarded early plays with Warcaller/GSZ/Messenger. Not being an initial mana source and its legendary status means it's best played as a 1-of however, albeit at that number the extra acceleration it provides greatly outweighs the advantage of playing another forest.

    Dryad Arbor: Turns GSZ into acceleration on turn 1 as most of you are aware of at this moment, thus allowing the deck to skimp down to 4 1-drop mana dorks in all.

    Llanowar/Fyndhorn Elves: Not really the most effective card to power ratio there is, but having an accelerating turn 1 play is just to good to pass up in this sort of deck. Also cheap beaters with some Lords in play. The 2/2 split is due to Phyrexian Revoker/Meddling Mage and similar shenanigans.

    Heritage Druid: Elven Dark Ritual on legs. Makes for some spectacular early plays and can still win the game in conjunction with Glimpse given an ample supply of Elves already in play (or some skill in balling into Cradle or Crossroads/big mana dorks). Also tends to draw fire from your more important creatures.

    Priest of Titania: Basically the opponent can never ever let you untap with this and remain safe, ever. In conjunction with the untappers it creates bizarre amounts of mana in a deck running enough card advantage engines to deck itself several times over in the span of a single turn and running two full complements of bombs to mull any excess mana into.

    Elvish Archdruid: See the above, but somewhat less likely to hit the board turn 2 and somewhat more likely to facilitate smashing your opponents face in should you not combo.

    Joraga Warcaller: Ah yes. In addition to being a standalone game-winner with Priest/Archdruid and even the slightest of board presences, it's also highly castable uber lord in the 3cc-7cc even without the aforementioned big mana makers, and surprisingly a decent 1-drop as well - both midcombo and as a turn one play should no other be available (as every single elf on the board contributes to the effectiveness of your engine, and it can later be salvaged with Symbiote should the opportunity present). Automatic 4-of in any build running the big mana engine.

    Elvish Champion: I've never actually played this maindecked before since it's badly overshadowed by Joraga Warcaller, but since that doesn't have any synergy with GSZ and I suddenly have room in the maindeck thanks to the Zenith I'm going to go ahead and try this out as the 9th maindecked lord effect. The Forestwalk is nice as well; typically not as good as giant Warcaller against the decks you would try to race with it but at least it's tutorable.

    Elvish Visionary: Good on it's lonesome, helps tremendously in draving into business with Glimpse chains and makes for one of the best card advantage engines in the game in conjunction with Symbiote.

    Sylvan Messenger: Expensive and unwieldy unless you have your engine in place, and somewhat hard to cast after a boardsweeper in a deck running only 14 fuaranteed mana sources; this still takes the Goblin philosophy of outdrawing the opponent no matter what they do and freaking runs with it - us running a full 30 elves and all. The 4 mana typically isn't a problem comboing out since you will essentially swim in it even a short while into the chain, and it pretty much guarantees that you have surplus creatures on hand when you Glimpse out even when playing out your hand aggressively. Another good reason why you really want to make your first 4 landdrops asap.

    Viridian Zealot: Hopelessly obsolete anywhere else, it still allow you to tutor up an answer to pretty much anything permanent-based which can keep you from winning game 1 whilst synergizing with the deck as a whole. Note that GSZ can tutor for it at any cmc>2, which conditionally allows it to get around Counterbalance and Chalice of the Void.

    Quirion Ranger: Untapper. With all the tutors and card draw, and Symbiote being better in most regards running the full set is not mandatory nor desirable in most cases - repeated use does set back your board development and then some. Still, it allows for some very explosive T2 plays with Llanowar Elves/Heritage Druid and allows you to always "make" your landdrop even should you not have one on hand (by bouncing and replaying a tapped forest) so seeing one early is still a nice boon all things considered. Also, it gives the deck some protection versus land destruction in general and Smallpox in particular; something which helps tremendously in those matchups.

    Wirewood Symbiote: The best Elf card ever printed, period (and yes, that's despite being an insect). It's a mana engine with any mana elf on the table, a card advantage engine with a carddraw elf or with an active glimpse, both simultaneously should the opportunity arise, generates infinite chumpblockers and is protection against sweepers and spot removal for freaking everything. And it's 1cc. This is probably what you should always tutor for with GSZ by default unless you can make a -very- convincing cause for anything else.

    Glimpse of Nature: I view this as card advantage first and foremost. Sure, under the right (and easily fulfilled) conditions it can and will win the game singlehandidly at 1 mana, but never be afraid to play it out in order to cycle a few creatures in the early to midgame. The deck can win just fine without it. At the very least it's usually an Ancestral Recall as well as a veritable lightning rod for opposing discard or countermagic (as they can pretty much never allow it without risking a loss by default), but be very mindful of the fact that even a single counter or well timed removal spell can and will prevent you from winning on the spot, and don't blame me when your 20-card overextension meet up with Perish.

    That said yeah; if the opponent doesn't disrupt my goldfish it allows me to consistently win between turn 3 and 4 (closer to turn 3, and sometimes as early as turn 2), and the presence of the other card advantage engines keeps it playable even after exhausting the initial 7.

    Green Sun's Zenith: I've only just begun to test with this and it has already blown my mind. It's 4 extra Llanowar Elves for G, 4 extra Symbiotes for GG and 4 extra freaking everything I could ever want for 3-5 mana. It allows the deck to cut down the llanowar elves to a minimum whilst actually increasing the possibilty of a turn 1 accelerant, it gets around chalice and counterbalance and it gets either card advantage elves to recoup an empty hand or the mana elves to abuse them. Sure you can draw them midcombo, but that's awesome as they immediatly translate to exttra symbiotes to keep the combo rolling. The only tutor except Survival I would even begin to consider as an 4-of, let alone being an autmoatic such.

    Concordant Crossroads: Makes all of your creatures (especially your mana elves) better by an order of magnitude and allows you to win on your big turn should you choose to Glimpse out. Being symmetrical typically isn't a problem since nobody forces you to play them out early versus aggressive decks, and they're obviously a godsend in recouping your losses post-sweeper. Also has the somewhat bizarre tertiary function of destroying any other world enchantment in play (most notably The Abyss and Nether Void), albeit this goes both ways - something that knowledgable opponents with bizarre card choices might act on. Finally it allows you to Alphastrike people out of a blue sky by dumping your hand ever so often. Best MD win condition there is bar none.

    Sideboard

    Krosan Grip: Standard green fare for beating Counterbalance, Chalice, Humility, E.Plague and similarily crippling cards. Another compelling reason why you want to play enough lands to make at least your 3rd landdrop by the midgame.

    Relic of Progenitus: In addition to being a direct hate cards versus strictly graveyard strategies, most slower decks in the format relies on the 'yard to generate card advantage in the midgame and forward, and having an active Relic here helps facilitate the attrition plan immensely, and as an added bonus it cycles during combo attempts.

    Faerie Macabre: The best hatecard available for most strict gy strategies (sans Leyline, which the deck can't really support). Not much more to it really.

    Emrakul: Beats everything damage prevention, most notably Enchantress (Solitary Confinement) and Lands.dec (Glacial Chasm) and also flies over Moat like a champ. Interesting secondary function in preventing you from Milling, but Painter decks are rare nowadays and High Tide decks are increasingly moving away from Brain Freeze in favor of Stroke of Genius (or Blue Sun's Zenith post-MBE). Can also beat infinite life decks by locking them out of the game by annihilation and eventually deck them by using GSZ to prevent you from drawing your entire library, and gets around coy opponents trying to beat you by removing Crossroads and sweeping the board, using Wing Shards or similar assorted random plays.

    Meta Hate Slots: If you want to bother with storm hate this goes here, likewise Masticore or Pithing Needle or whathaveyou. I personally would never play less than 4 Krosan Grip/5 GYhate cards, and Emrakul makes certain matchups almost unloseable, but otherwise the sideboard really isn't set in stone, so this is usually trying to alleviate whatever I'm trying to beat at the moment.

    Notable cards not run:

    Nettle Sentine:l The omission of this is what usually draws flak from people playing extended ports of ElfBall. The basic reasoning behind not running it is that whilst the Nettle/Heritage/Glimpse combo will usually win the game the turn it is cast, it is incredibly easy to disrupt by either spot removal on Heritage Druid or by countering/discarding Glimpse. And without both of the other components, Nettle is a fairly bad card on its own. Again, the general strategy of the deck is to generate mana and card advantage and win by quantity in the mid to lategame should the opponent nullify Glimpse, and there are better cards to run than this in order to make that happen.

    Wren's Run Vanquisher: A 3/3 Deathtouch almost without drawbacks is pretty good on its own but we're looking for cards that both helps you win by Glimpse or by attririon, and this one does neither. Also, it's still in Nacatl/Burn range versus Zoo decks. This also goes for similar cards such as Talara's Battalion and so forth. Getting to play with 2-drops -almost- as good as Tarmogoyf isn't the best reason to go tribal, sadly.

    Regal Force: Uncastable unless you already have mana engines in place, and if you have 7+ mana on hand and either GSZ or whatever this replaces on hand (probably Sylvan Messenger) you're typically in good shape anyhow. And if you don't have access to that sort of mana and board presence this won't help you stabilize a losing game the way Messenger can. Again, this deck isn't as all in as ElfBall style decks - you don't need to resolve a bomb in order to win, just getting Symbiote and Messenger/Visionary in play will already allow you to attrition the crap out of pretty much any reactive strategy there is.

    Aether Vial: Doesn't play ball with Glimpse/Joraga/GSZ, somewhat slow in a deck aiming for the T3 goldfish, doesn't take advantage of your mana elves and the low cmc creatures doesn't make full use of it. Still a very powerful card in a deck running 30+ critters, but I personally believe it's not very well suited for this one in particular.

    Duals: Running a solid mono-color manabase is one of the decks biggest strengths, and generally there isn't enough in other colors to make up for this whilst keeping the elf count high. Red used to be an acceptable splash only because of Anger, but nowadays Fauna Shaman takes 2 full turns to enable that as opposed to SotF's 1.

    Other Considerations:

    Viridian Shaman: The best card you could possibly run versus Chalice decks and Affinity, especially as it recurs with Symbiote. It still doesn't replace Grip however so 1 or 2 at the most is probably all you should aim for in the sb to fetch with GSZ.

    Masticore: You draw a lot of cards and make a lot of mana, making it synergistic with the deck. Definite sideboard consideration versus Tribal decks (especially ones packing black for Perish), decks relying on Pernicious Deed/Firespout and decks running Peacekeeper. Also a total baller when it comes to answering Ethersworn Canonist out of the wishboard should you have the mana available.

    Null Rod: I like this one as a sideboard card. Shuts down Jitte/Vial v. Tribal, SDT/EE/Equipment v. Countertop and control decks and blows affinity clear out of the water should they not anticipate it. Also it slows down Storm somewhat, although it still isn't enough to swing the MU in your favor as they can easily remove or even play around it should they need to.

    Deranged Hermit: Useful bomb in the midgame bringing 9 power to the table, still nominally hardcastable/Sunable at 5 mana and recurs with Symbiote to flood the opponent with Squirrels. Potential 1-of in the maindeck.

    Wirewood Hivemaster: Generally the same function as Hermit but at 2 mana. Interesting Lord effect in all, and has great synergy with Cradle should you run lots of them. Gets stupid fast with Symbiote and another elf on the battlefield.

    Imperious Perfect: For a slightly bigger mana investment compared to Hivemaster you get a creature that has a greater impact on the board when it hits, is a more credible standalone threat given time, makes tokens with your favourite creature type and still tricks out big time with untappers. Not a bad deal in all.

    Ezuri, Renegade Leader: Another nice manadump for GSZ, and also protects your board against sweepers to boot. Not a bad 1-of consideration all in all, especially if Counterbalance/Firespout decks see a lot of play in your meta.

    Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary: Not as good as Priest of Titania or Archdruid, but then again few cards are. Yet another card to keep in mind should you want to run more big mana accelerators.

    Living Wish: Alternative to running GSZ, and allows you to get Emrakul, Untappers, Cradle or answers out of your sideboard. It's slower and doesn't fetch Arbor turn 1, and eats up a lot of sideboard space however so use it at your own discretion. Running it in addition to GSZ is also very much a possibility, especially as it doesn't need to be a 4-of in order to be effective (and 2 extra mana isn't trivial when most silver bullets start at 3 mana and up). If you do run it, moving a Symbiote to the sideboard is mandatory as it is a) cheap and b) still broken at 3 mana.

    Summoner's Pact: Another alternate tutor, albeit one that in my opinion is inferior to both Wish and Zenith. On the plus side it allows you to play whatever you teched up on the same turn with no loss in tempo, making it better whilst comboing out or when you can otherwise win on the spot the same turn, and unlike GSZ it does get Warcaller for those skull-crushing good times. On the flip side it's a pretty horrible tempo loss against countermagic, it's still a 4cc card when you're not planning to win that same turn and the ubiquity of spot removal and sweepers makes it quite liable to lose you the game on the spot should you not have 4 forests in play when going for it.

    Natural Order: 4 mana and a creature is definetly on the higher end of the curve, and I personally rather play Messengers in this spot. As long as you accept the weakness versus countermagic, that it won't save you versus Perish and the fact you cannot get rid of Progenitus on hand should you draw it it's still a highly powerful threat however, albeit one you would have to revamp the deck some to fit in.

    Gilt-Leaf Archdruid: If Emrakul is the mallet and Masticore the machine gun in your sideboard toolbox, this is the more sophisticated way to go about it. It's an Elf for starters, and at 5 mana it's both hardcastable, tutorable and well as a somewhat credible threat on its own (we run 16 druids in the maindeck not counting this; turning them into visionaries isn't trivial). Most importantly it can still power through Glacial Chasm in most combo situations as well as Peacekeeper by making it impossible to pay the upkeep (the main reason for running Masticore). It's not strictly better than Emrakul however as it doesn't beat Solitary Confinement, and albeit Brainfreeze is getting progressively rarer Painter's Servant might still be a threat. Emrakul also has the amusing tertiary function of foiling Show and Tell as well.
    Last edited by Infinitium; 01-23-2012 at 01:58 PM.

  2. #2
    I'm so meta, even this acronym
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    Re: [Deck] Elven Advantage

    FAQ:

    What does the deck do?: It makes a lot of mana using the big elf engine, then converts that mana into card advantage, then uses that card advantage to flood the board and win in short order. Since the deck can easily use the cards drawn to generate more mana, and mana to draw more cards this commonly creates a snowball effect that ends up with your deck on the table (hence the popular name ElfBall for the speed versions of combo elves).

    Why would I play this?: Because you want to play an aggro/combo deck with a fast goldfish and excellent lategameme, keep your opponent honest with an ever present threat of "oops, I win" should he not play reactively and because it messes with peoples expectations - as an aggro deck, it absolutely murders decks such as Enchantress and Lands that relies on taxing and cannot deal with the big elf mana engine, as a combo deck it races aggressive strategies that normally hose tribal decks and as a tribal card advantage deck it can power through almost any amount of disruption with cards to spare at the end of it.

    How do I play it?: The deck usually plays out quite linearily, and most decisions stems from which hands to keep, when to overextend the board and when to chump to buy time versus aggressive decks. Typically you want a hand with some lands (2 are usually enough to start out with; 1 landers are acceptable depending on the mu and other accelerants in it, but be wary of removal), some mana accelerants (ideally turn 1 llanowar into turn 2 Priest/Archdruid) and ideally some way to generate CA (Glimpse is usually a T3 goldfish should you start out with it, but T3 Wirewood/Visionary or T3 Messenger is still very strong). Don't be afraid to hold back on laying down creatures on the table; the deck can succesfully Glimpse out with literally 0 cards on hand thanks to the ridiculus amounts of mana PoT/Archdruid/Cradle can generate in conjunction with the CA elves and Symbiote, and having stuff on the table is what allows you to put pressure on the opponent. Remember that whilst the deck can win in a single turn should you Glimpse or start chaining Messengers/Symbiotes, it's still a tribal aggro deck at heart and should be played as such (ie it's more akin to Goblins than other Glimpse Elves decks in this regard).

    When to use Glimpse? At the earliest opportune moment, unless you're certain that you can win straight up after your next untap phase and that the opponent cannot disrupt this. Holding it on hand accomplishes nothing except as discard bait, and even if you "only" end up drawing 2-3 cards off it it's still incredibly cheap incremental card advantage which will rapidly add up in the long run, and it helps you to safely build up board presence (as well as drawing secondary Glimpses with the board presence to end the game with them).

    How to play through sweepers: Learn to identify which decks are liable to play these maindecked/sideboarded and play accordingly. This usually means not overextending the board unless the opponent starts resolving bombs, trying to resolve an early Crossroads and running the opponent out of spot removal by playing out big mana elves and symbiotes. After this, try to maintain the least possible amount of board presence which still allows you to put pressure on the opponent and/or allows you to win on the spot if you pull off a Glimpse, and keep enough elves on hand to repopulate the board once they are forced to sweep it. Symbiote is golden in allowing you to salvage your best elf on the table whilst simultaneously drawing cards with Visionary/Messenger, and having a Crossroads helps tremendously as it allows you to bounce right back after the opponent clears the board. Should you have enough mana to permit it and has put the opponent into topdeck mode, resolving an Ezuri or big Warcaller effectively nullifies red based mass removal eg Firespout (but be aware of spot removal).

    If the opponent not only has mass removal but also a big threat, recursion or a card advantage engine of his own you obviously cannot bait him out; in these cases it's usually best to play out everything you've got aggressively and pray that you win before s/he blows you out.

    What to do against Counterbalance/Chalice: Don't panic. Krosan Grip is in the SB for a reason, but even G1 having one of these resolved isn't game over. We run way more higher cmc cards than your average Elfball deck, and as long as you have a minimum of board advantage once these hit you can sometimes just try to beat down for the win (Archdruid helps a lot here). Failing that, try to GSZ up Zealot as soon as you are reasonably sure it will resolve and try to remove them directly and then overextend for the jugular before they can drop another. Chalice@1 can also be played through relatively painlessly assuming that they don't play a relevant clock and/or removal otherwise by getting Symbiote in play with GSZ and abusing your big mana and carddraw elves.

    How to answer Discard/Counters/spot removal: Laugh. As a rule of thumb, as long as you aren't manascrewed you can outattrition any and all attempts to answer your threats on a 1-1 basis. Simply play out your hand naturally starting with your cheapest threats to avoid any significant loss in tempo (there are exceptions of course, such as getting out that early Archdruid etc) and try to either swarm or combo out in the mid to lategame. Remember that the opponent has to answer any big mana producer or glimpse immediatly or risk a loss by default, something which usually slows them down enough for you to stick an engine and clog up the board. This deck is very much quantity over quality, something which legacy as a format has some difficulty in answering effectively.

    Matchup Analysis:

    Getting there.

    Goblins:

    Merfolk:

    Zoo:

    Rock:

    UGx midrange:

    UWx control:

    Lands/Enchantress:

    Combo:
    Last edited by Infinitium; 02-14-2011 at 07:20 AM.

  3. #3

    Re: [Deck] Elven Advantage

    Love it. I alway love elves haha. If you're going aggro, have you thought about using taunting elf? Might be good against other fast aggro decks. Maybe board?

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    Re: [Deck] Elven Advantage

    How do you deal with Peacekeeper?

    This is exactly the kind of deck that wants Living Wish -> Masticore BTW.
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    Re: [Deck] Elven Advantage

    That or have Emrakul on the main.

    How is this list better than the current combo elves?

    I think that if you're aiming for aggro, you might as well go full pledge aggro.

    That said, a turn 3 Talara's Batallion/Wren's Run Vanquisher (via Zenith) is a better plan than turn 3 Tarmogoyf.
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    Re: [Deck] Elven Advantage

    Quote Originally Posted by (nameless one) View Post
    That or have Emrakul on the main.

    How is this list better than the current combo elves?

    I think that if you're aiming for aggro, you might as well go full pledge aggro.

    That said, a turn 3 Talara's Batallion/Wren's Run Vanquisher (via Zenith) is a better plan than turn 3 Tarmogoyf.
    That was my first thought also. Is it really that good to play a half aggro/combo deck? Also I really want to know why you don't run Nettle sentinel.
    Oooooops I forgot to pay for my Summoner's Pact upkeep cost . Edit undo

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    Re: [Deck] Elven Advantage

    It's a rare but interesting archetype that presents a dilemma to our opponent - they may need an early answer to have a chance against a combo hand, but aggressive mulligans are a liability against an aggro hand.
    I've tried this with an affinity-based Glimpse deck and managed a decent rate of turn-1-kills and a very good chance to either get a combo kill by turn 3 or a 'better than aggro' opening. Unfortunately, it was a bit fickle... when it sucked, it really sucked.

    I wasn't impressed the last time I tested a similar approach with elves, but that was before Green Sun's Zenith. This may be the first time I see a deck of this type that looks stable.

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    Re: [Deck] Elven Advantage

    @k2thej: The aggro plan usually involves comboing out asap or failing that outdrawing and swarming them in the mid-lategame. Taunting Elf is far to situational to be of use in my opinion.

    @Rukcus: Peacekeeper isn't as widely played now that Vengevival isn't a real contender anymore, but yeah Masticore is always a sideboard consideration versus that, other Tribal decks and decks packing sweepers. The deck looks like it could (and indeed can) support Wish/Masticore because it's approximatley the same deck that introduced that piece of tech to the Elf Combo thread (I do feel that GSZ is stronger than Wish at the time being however).

    @Nameless One: The apt comparison would be with Goblins I think; a high percentage of extremely explosive hands backed up by a long term card advantage plan that outperforms most other decks in the format. The presence of PoT/Archdruid measn that Glimpse is obnoxiously strong even without warping the deck around it (it still pretty much reads "G: win the game" for all intents and purposes), and is in any case is a far stronger card inherently than the 2cc beaters.

    @Neil: I've explained my reasoning for this time and again. Tl;Dr version it's an old Extended/Standard tech whereas Legacy have access to the stronger PoT/Archdruid/Crossroads engine, it's not good enough on its own without Heritage and Glimpse backing it up, it doesn't support aggressive plays since you continously tap out rather than attack pre-combo, forces you to play an exuberant amount of inefficient 1-drops and since the parts of that engine doesn't do a lot on their own it's easily disrupted by a single counterspell on Glimpse or removal on Heritage.

    @Iranon: I've been playing this for the better part of a year and a half - the deck has been stable for a long time. It's hard to get people to actually play new concepts in this format unless it involves winning big tournaments, straight ports or stuff coming off the ban list however. It have always been less dependent on having good hands than Glimpse affinity as the presence of supplementary carddraw and Symbiote means that Glimpse is never a dead card outside the staring 7.

    I wouldn't say that it's necessarily a rare archetype either - Goblins have been doing it since the inception of T1.5 for an example.

  9. #9
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    Re: [Deck] Elven Advantage

    I used to play Stompy Elves and I agree with what Infinitium said to Iranon. not a lot of people would play an 'established' deck unless it has that winning streak. I also agree that you don't need to mull that much when playing Elves. Unfortunately, with that deck, if you haven't killed your opponent by turn 5, its going to be an uphill battle for you.

    If youre going quasi-combo and not pure combo, would it be better to run a full set of Sylvan Messengers instead of running them as a 2-of. That said, you'll won't need to run Glimpse of Nature. Possibly some good late-game card selection in the form of Fauna Shaman? You already have a full set of Green Zenith to begin with.
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  10. #10
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    Re: [Deck] Elven Advantage

    Is there any reason why you are not running 1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader?

    The tutoring power of this deck is sufficient that you would be able to get it out at any time you needed to. With the amount of mana generation this deck is capable of, this seems like an auto-include. Did you forget about this one?
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    Re: [Deck] Elven Advantage

    ..And why wouldn't I run the single most potent card advantage spell ever printed? If I may draw a rough analogy to what you're saying it's like those people which insisted on playing Chromatic Star and Seal of Fire to grow Tarmogoyf in their T2 Gruul decks; the card is already the freaking best at what it does - there's no need to water down the rest of the deck in order to make it a smitheren better. I have a t3 goldfish, and the very threat of me playing Glimpse and winning on the spot warps my opponents gameplan by force whether they like it or not.

    As for the turn 5 deadline; I play 9 Lords, 34 creatures in all, 14 cards that draws into them and 4 Wirewood Symbiotes to replay 6 of those cards -twice- per turn should the mana supply allow for it. Lategame isn't an issue, trust me.

    The Sylvan Messengers are kept at 2 since having more is somewhat superflous with 4 GSZ, Glimpse, Visionary and Wirewood Symbiote, and at 4 mana it still tends to clutter your hand somewhat.

    @Rukcus: Nope, haven't tried that one yet. Maybe in the Elvish Champion slot when I get the time to (real life etc). Tried it briefly when I still ran Summoner's Pact, but it was pretty much always overshadowed by Joraga Warcaller and it was almost never the best creature to go for in the Living Wish version (since having 10 mana was usually interchangable with 17 for Cthulu). I can see that might change with GSZ however, time might tell.

  12. #12
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    Re: [Deck] Elven Advantage

    Infinitium, could you post what good and bad match-ups this deck has? I'd like to see how it compares with elves combo. Also do you have stats on what turn the deck gold-fishes? If not I can try proxing it post the stats later.
    Oooooops I forgot to pay for my Summoner's Pact upkeep cost . Edit undo

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    Re: [Deck] Elven Advantage

    Busy weekend, busy life atm so it might take a while. Short answer below, albeit this also depends the specific cards played in the specific deck. Also nobody metagames against Elves, I exclusively play on MWS and am probably biased so there's quite the margin of error in my judgement.

    Roughly speaking it has a good to excellent excellent matchup v. other tribal decks (gets worse if they're splashing black for perish), Big Zoo, Affinity, Burn, midrange/control decks not packing blue, Lands.dec, Tomb Stompy variants, Enchantress and Threshold/New Horizon style decks. Basically everything that struggles to answer an early combo, relies on 1/1 answers maindeck ( or better yet force of will), has a slower or similar goldfish and cannot outdraw you in the lategame (or in the case of Enchantress/42Lands because they lack efficient answers to anything and cannot handle hardcasted Emrakul postside).

    Stax (white variants), control decks packing Jace TMS (or similar draw engines), Sligh decks (including small Zoo) and counterbalance decks are intermediate matchups.

    Storm Combo (gets worse the faster variety it is) and Pox are generally bad to horrible. (storm combo is unsalvagaeble, Pox is nasty since they pack a lot of rather specific hate coupled with land destruction to keep the deck from drawing into more threats).

  14. #14

    Re: [Deck] Elven Advantage

    Isn't Bounty of the Hunt with Joraga Warcaller a solid hand shake and next game? Bounty puts counters on. Warcaller doesn't care where the counters came from.

    I BotH my Warcaller with all 3 counters ...

    In addition it skirts Counterbalance and can (not always) help vs. Firespout or Pyroclasm.

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    Re: [Deck] Elven Advantage

    2 cards for pumping all of your Elves for one turn looks weak, especially as it opens you up for some savage 3-for-1's.

  16. #16

    Re: [Deck] Elven Advantage

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinitium View Post
    2 cards for pumping all of your Elves for one turn looks weak, especially as it opens you up for some savage 3-for-1's.
    If you are worried about X-for1's then you probably shouldn't be playing elf swarm. Firespout and Perish wave hello.

  17. #17
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    Re: [Deck] Elven Advantage

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinitium View Post
    most cards constitutes a standalone threat to the opponent and there are multiple redundancies should they try to attack one aspect of the deck.
    Err... no? None of the cards in this deck constitutes a standalone threat and there are no redudancies, it's as plain and simple as cleaning the table.
    Last edited by Ciberon; 01-31-2011 at 02:28 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by cdr View Post
    MWS is an idiot filter.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthuloo View Post
    If they are particularly ugly : Tarmo & Goyf
    If they fight all the day: Urza & Mishra (if one is a female: Chandra & Jace - if one is good and the other is evil: Gerrard and Yawgmoth )
    If instead they collaborate: Brainstorm & Fetchland
    If they always seem to listen to you, but in fact they don't: Maro & Aaron
    If they have tentacles: Cthulu & Emrakul

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    Re: [Deck] Elven Advantage

    Quote Originally Posted by Ciberon View Post
    Err... no? None of the cards in this deck constitutes a standalone thread and there are no redudancies, it's as plain and simple as cleaning the table.
    Just asking... wth is a thread in that context? This is a thread... But a card =/= thread... I guess you mean threat.

  19. #19
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    Re: [Deck] Elven Advantage

    Typo fixed. Yes, I meant threat.
    Quote Originally Posted by cdr View Post
    MWS is an idiot filter.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthuloo View Post
    If they are particularly ugly : Tarmo & Goyf
    If they fight all the day: Urza & Mishra (if one is a female: Chandra & Jace - if one is good and the other is evil: Gerrard and Yawgmoth )
    If instead they collaborate: Brainstorm & Fetchland
    If they always seem to listen to you, but in fact they don't: Maro & Aaron
    If they have tentacles: Cthulu & Emrakul

  20. #20
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    Re: [Deck] Elven Advantage

    Quote Originally Posted by needleds
    If you are worried about X-for1's then you probably shouldn't be playing elf swarm. Firespout and Perish wave hello.
    I'm not particulary worried about sweepers, no. The deck plays what, 10 maindeck cards that generate card advantage, 4 GSZ to tutor 6 of them and Wirewood Symbiote to recur card advantage elves and save your most important ones from removal. Sweepers backed by a big threat or a card advantage engine of their own is worse but still not unsalvageable. That said in the scenarioswhere Bounty is good (Joraga + Elves! on the table as well as extra cards on hand), you should already be winning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ciberon View Post
    Statement
    Retort. Also no, it's not "as clean and simple as clearing the table".

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