He could use a 5c manabase like I used to before I could afford duals. Something like 4 City of Brass, 4 Gemstone Mine, 3 Forbidden Orchard, and a couple of painlands.Originally Posted by jin
Lord of the Chalice
Stompy Discord: https://discord.gg/6cesvkz
In my ongoing effort to make Burning Wish less of a liability, I took my standard 3c list and went:
-1 Infernal Tutor
-1 Thoughtseize
+1 Ad Nauseam
+1 Mox Diamond
This negates the major drawback of cutting Infernal Tutor from the maindeck (decreased threat density) by replacing it with the only thing I'd rather draw in the deck. As you can imagine, t1 and t2 kill percentage improves due to higher number of Ad Nauseams drawn naturally or via cantrips. The extra IMS helps negate the drawback of having another AdN in the deck.
That leaves the list as the following:
3 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
1 Mox Diamond
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp
with the following sideboard:
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Pulverize
2 Thoughtseize
2 Pyroblast
4 Chain of Vapor
Initial testing has proved promising. I've yet to kill myself after goldfishing quite a bit from various life totals and the extra IMS hasn't really caused me to mulligan too much.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
This is pretty focused on Ad Nauseam. Does that stray further away from TES's ability to attack in multiple ways? Also, since its focus is on Ad Nauseam, did you consider playing City of Traitors like Saito, possibly in place of Mox Diamond/Chrome Mox.
Orim's Chant, Silence, and Leyline of Sanctity. A whole lot of rehashed information and a bold opinion, in small article form.
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Often times, when a newer legacy player shows interest in TES (or any variant or storm with white), budget concerns are presented. After quickly dismissing the replacing of the expensive Lion's Eye Diamond due to nothing being able to fill it's void, the immediate next line of thought is swapping Orim's Chants with Silences. This is generally deemed as an "acceptable" budget replacement, because while Silence is perceived as being worse than Orim's Chant, the added benefit is so marginal that most casual and semi-casual legacy players will never even be in a situation where Chant is better.
In order for this perception that Chant is better to be true it has to be, quite obviously, practically better than Silence. For that to happen, there has to exist a metagame that includes a meaningful amount of cards, interactions, and/or board states that directly render the secondary effects and benefits worthwhile. Without any real, plausible scenarios, technically both cards are exactly as powerful as one another.
Orim's Chant comes out on top in situations where you need to delay your opponent from attacking. The positive part about the kicker is that buying a turn in storm based combo decks could potentially allow storm to win the game. Time walking an opponent's creatures is no small deal.
The double white requirement is absolutely restrictive, however, and will often rule the kicker useless in practice. Against any land permission or denial deck, sometimes getting a single rainbow land to stick is incredibly difficult, much less two. In fact, in all of my time playing paper storm and MODO storm, I've kicked Orim's Chant to any effect twice. That's two times out of many hundred I was given an extra turn because I played Chant over Silence. It's worth noting that this is a tangible benefit.
Before I continue, let me quickly share my stance on the card Leyline of Sanctity. LoS is a card that is seeing increasing play in a number of sideboards across Legacy, because it's versatile and crippling to some deck's core strategies. Think burn, grindstone, tendrils, etc. The innate problem with Leyline of Sanctity v. Storm is that it doesn't actually do anything to stop a storm pilot from winning the game via Ad Nauseam in games 2 and 3, because storm will simply draw a bounce spell and use it before casting Tendrils.
LoS does two things to hinder storm with great effect, though: protect the controllers counterspells from duress effects, and shut down Ill-Gotten Gains into Tendrils or any other storm engine that doesn't draw a lot of cards like Ad Nauseam. Taking this into account, it becomes very clear that any deck which doesn't run counterspells might as well be siding in Tormod's Crypt instead of LoS as they both only really stop IGG, with LoS being slightly less effective.
However, blue decks packing Leyline of Sanctity are an entire new animal. The storm pilot is expected to combo off with spells that are super vulnerable to countermagic, and protection effects that have no legal target. If storm attempts to bounce or remove the LoS and gets countered, there is still much left to wonder about the opponent's hand. The point is, LoS is the only "Permanent" (meaning something that stays on the battlefield) and "Restrictive" (something that doesn't directly stop you from winning somehow) piece of hate that turns off your ability to remove counterspells from your opponents hand.
Fast forward to Silence's benefits. Silence completely circumnavigates this particuarly restrictive piece of hate. It doesn't target, and can therefore effectively draw the counterspells out of your opponent's hand. The storm pilot loses the ability to timewalk their opponent's attack phase, but as mentioned, it rarely if ever occurs and even if it does, doesn't necessarily guarantee anything. A Silence is a guarantee that an opponent is either going to counterspell it, or storm is going to get a clear runway for takeoff.
Therefore, based on this information, I conclude that Silence is a better choice than Chant, with a 3:1 Silence:Chant ratio to dodge meddling mage shenanigans. Silence's benefit greatly outperformed chant's in my extensive testing, and is thus far more relevant in an overall metagame with decks like Merfolk, Thresh, CTop, Landstill, New Horizons, Bant, Excalibur, etc all being decks that could potentially run Leyline of Sanctity and completely shut down half of a storm pilot's protection.
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Thoughts? Do you disagree? Explain with evidence suggesting why I'm wrong, if you do.
Mox Diamond is an additional initial mana source. This gives you colored mana without using a land drop, an extremely critical function (generally one of two common roadblocks with Ad Naus in TES, the other being a win condition) that is not replaceable by City of Traitors/Crystal Vein. TES doesn't have an issue casting Ad Nauseam. If it did, the card I played prior to the 3rd Ad Nauseam, Infernal Tutor (which most commonly finds Ad Nauseam for a total cost of 7), wouldn't work.
Cutting Infernal Tutor isn't likely to take away from TES's ability to Wish->ETW/DReturns/IGG. It probably even improves Diminishing Returns as a tool since you're more likely to be able to grab an Ad Nauseam if you go all-in with mana floating early. The Infernal Tutor that is Wishable has already saved me multiple times from hands where I'd previously be forced into DReturns or ETW.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
It's not really a good sb card for blue, so I wouldn't worry about it. Being able to stop Goblins, Dredge and Zoo from attacking you on occasion is much more important than stopping the few blue players who play loose cards like LoS, Misdirection, etc. I could see Silence being better than Chant in a meta where blue players somehow think LoS is the nutz, but other than that, Chant will always be better.
I never understood how the 3/1 split is supposed to play around Meddling Mage. Do you plan to have the 1-of in your hand when MM hits play or just hope to randomly cantrip into it? Do you play 1 Chant / 3 Silence so that your opponent will mistakenly name Chant? In the last case, I think the joke is on the TES player, since playing Silence over Chant is like making your deck strictly worse 95% of the time. I once played against a TES player who lost simply because he coudln't Infernal Tutor for an extra copy of the Silence he was holding. That's a perfect example of why I think the split is so horrible You essentially make the deck worse and give it a nonbo interaction (IT+Silence) just to give you a very small edge against cards that don't see much play in the first place.
I think there are 2 situations where Silence is a legitimate choice. 1) You already play 4 Chant, but you want MOARR!! :> 2) the blue players in your meta are in love with the awefulness that is Leyline of Sanctity/Runed Halo.
Last edited by Rune; 02-01-2011 at 10:59 AM.
But if you cast Dark Ritual into Ad Nauseam with City of Traitors, I don't think you'll miss. Even without dropping that land, you can hit the IMS quite easily. I don't think the IMS are a problem in TES at all. In testing, I have found that between old ANT and old TES, TES had way more initial mana sources allowing us to go into Ad Nauseam without mana floating where as old ANT would hit bricks if it didn't have B or U floating. IMS are critical, but any extra really isn't necessary since it already packs 4 Chrome Mox which is already more than ANT. You said finding a win con is a road block for TES, but I didn't say cut a win con for the City of Traitor, I said cut the Mox Diamond for it. Mox Diamond does not win the game either.
I know TES doesn't have trouble casting Ad Nauseam, neither did ANT, but Saito decided that City of Traitors worked, and it wasn't bad.
Aren't your Diminishing Returns slightly weaker though now that you lose another tutor from the maining. Basically after Burning Wish, you are down to 6 win cons (if you cannot Ad Nauseam), so your Diminishing Returns is more likely to miss. And also it'd be harder to IGGy loop properly with only 3 Infernal Tutors in the main.
But I mean, if you go all in to Burning Wish with 7 mana floating, I think it's hard to miss a Diminishing Returns with Bryant Cook's 5c list as floating U allows you to see 10 cards and having 7 other tutors in the main (outside of the initial Burning Wish) really helps us get to Tendrils.
My thoughts.
City of Traitors - Terrible. It can cast three to five cards in a total of seventy-five. I'd like to get more out of my lands, especially since it will effect Mulliganing.
Three Ad Nauseam - Repetitive much? It narrows down your gameplan to the point where all you can do is Ad Nauseam. The list looks like it will kill itself more frequently than standardized EPIC Storm based decks.
Silence vs Chant - You're wrong. Read my GP report, I Chanted with kicker more than I needed Silence. Even so, it's possible to cast Ad Nauseam. flip silence, and cast it on your opponent. Not to mention, you could just flip Echoing Truth and win...
Mox Diamond - It just sucks, no. It's only good post-Nauseam, it's not worth it to run situational,"I'm already winning" cards.
I think that's all the bad ideas I caught skimming since my last read.
I agree, more Nauseams does bottleneck down resources, and in testing last night, i chanted with the kicker twice in the same turn....
On to more proactive discussion, Using Bryant's list, could i get some suggestions on the Sb for Indianapolis. Should Xantid come back in because of merfolk and such?
LoS is played relentlessly online and even in my paper tournament experiences have had it boarded in a lot more than you guys, apparently.
I think I may have IT'd for silence/chant maybe once or twice, too. I could get behind a 4 of silence or 4 of chant, but that's up to the individual. ITing for a silence is not something that happens frequently.
I fail to see how this is logical. You say you needed the kicker more than Silence, which is a perfectly legitimate opinion based on experience. Then you go and say it's possible to cast Ad Nauseam and flip silence against a [blue]* player running LoS. How exactly do you plan on having Ad Nauseam resolves when 7/8 of your protection spells can not target your opponent? Do you not see how this is impossible unless your opponent is literally playing a shade of blue in legacy with zero countermagic?
*I'm assuming you're talking about blue decks because my previous post already covered how irrelevant LoS is if it's controller doesn't have countermagic.
---The innate problem with Leyline of Sanctity v. Storm is that it doesn't actually do anything to stop a storm pilot from winning the game via Ad Nauseam in games 2 and 3, because storm will simply draw a bounce spell and use it before casting Tendrils.
Bottom line, creature based strategies with the exception of Dredge and possibly zoo (but half of zoo is burn anyway, so it's even more of a corner case) have ZERO chance at racing storm. Orim's Chant shores up your good matchups, Silence helps a potentially bad one. If your meta has no Leyline of Sanctity, I'm totally behind running chant, but in a meta with even a single blue player running LoS, you'd be wrong to not run Silence.
I suppose you don't count Goblins as a creature based strategy, then?
They have a good shot at disrupting landlight hands and certainly do have a blazingly fast clock - for a creature deck.
This looks like a job for me.
Most of my posts will be written from my phone, so please excuse the eventual lack of proper typing.
You could include goblins in that list if you want, however turn 3 goblin wins are a lot less common than zoo's & dredges, and wastelands/ports (not that they're as widely played anymore) are even more reason why getting WW becomes impossibly difficult in the first few turns. If they have a waste, you're literally banking on having three rainbow lands by turn 3 in order to kicker and buy yourself a single turn.
A turn 1 Goblin Lackey punishes a slow hand for TES.
A turn 1 lackey hand is at best equivalent to an average Dredge or the fastest of zoo wins. And in practice, the vast majority of t1 lackey hands do not kill turn 3.
It's pretty crucial to note that Goblins can't really apply a ton of pressure while disrupting you unless they have the nut Lackey/Wasteland draw with either Siege-Gang or Piledriver plus two goblins, and your lands are all nonbasics.
When in doubt, mumble.
When in trouble, delegate.
In this deck, all your lands are nonbasic. Them having Lakey + Wasteland really ain't that uncommon, close to 20% considering they only need to waste on their second turn. Nevertheless, Goblins is one of the matchups I really like to face with this deck.
/edit: you can however make a point about your lands being Fetchlands, I guess.
The seven cardinal sins of Legacy:
1. Discuss the unbanning ofLand TaxEarthcraft.
2. Argue that banning Force of Will would make the format healthier.
3. Play Brainstorm without Fetchlands.
4. Stifle Standstill.
5. Think that Gaea's Blessing will make you Solidarity-proof.
6. Pass priority after playing Infernal Tutor.
7. Fail to playtest against Nourishing Lich (coZ iT wIlL gEt U!).
I only brought up City of Traitors because emidln's deck is so focused on Ad Nauseam and could utilize it better. I do agree that it is useless in the usual builds.
Please read the Vial Goblins thread. Someone came up with at least 40 ways to kill by turn 3, often not using Lackey.
Because we don't play Xantid/Pyroblast post board?
Edit: I also heard that Empty the Warrens gets around Leyline.
Empty followed by chant in their upkeep is loltastic. I did it to an enchantress player that mulled to 5 just to get leyline
Will says I'm in BZK. I don't know what is going on.
That doesn't work.
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