[Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm

[Sea R Hill]

Can we lock this thread and delete every post that isn't the primer? Pretty much nothing else needs to be discussed, Bryant's primer is fucking perfect, and my primer will answer some shit too. You guys are just repeating yourselves and suggesting terrible cards... Flusterstorm... Seriously?

And I'm the one who is trolling?

If you want to be Bryant's little bi*** at least give us some insights. Your post is just... useless. Only thing I can say in response is: Pyroblast... Serioulsy?

Out comes the troll from under the bridge.

With Mental Misstep being banned many players are looking at Counterbalance, even if it's numbers had disappeared before Misstep. People are going to try to force Counterbalance within the next few months which is one of the reasons why Pyroblast is better Flusterstorm. Jace can be an issue, it's a win condition that disrupts us as a combo deck. It doesn't matter completely if it's slow, that's what control decks do. They slow us down.

Look at Starcitygames top 8 decks, if Spellstutters "suck hard" it probably won't be in any of the U/x decks right? I'm a person who looks at numbers and present trends in the metagame. They've been played within the last few months to answer Hive Mind decks, they're also splash damage against us. I wouldn't be shocked if we see lists playing them in the former misstep slots.

Thoughtseizing Cliques and Snapcasters is a possibility, although it's lifeloss in a deck that needs it's life total. Chant draws out disruption and forces them to play their hand instead of sitting back allowing you to take one piece, then cast another. Which is just one of the reasons Chant is better than Thoughtseize, but you keep on, keepin' on with your Flusterstorms and Thoughtseizes. Can't wait to see a top 8 list with them, because there certainly isn't any right now.

This is a good thing to anticipate Counterbalance being "tried" again, but if you anticipate for Counterbalance why not for Spellstutter Sprite?
Sprite was only played as a replacement of Spell Snare in StoneBlade to have more bodies to equip to Sword. With Snapcaster they are gonna disappear pretty quickly because, well Snpacaster + Spell Snare + Spell Pierce is way better that out-of-tempo Spellstutter Sprites.

Counterbalance may be tried again, but they are not gonna last long. The CounterTop decks already had problems before MMS (GSZ, and a wider range of CCs). So it may be a good short term idea to play Pyroblast, but I'd play Xantid Swarm any day before clunky Pyroblasts.


I can't believe you dared to say Jace was relevant. When I Duress my opponent this is the kind of card I love to see.

I have never said that now that Misstep is gone Flusterstorm is the card to play. I'd run Xantid Swarms before any other anti-hate card. But that makes me laugh when people say that Flusterstorm is "terrible" when they say at the same time that Pyroblast is awesome. Hey, this is exactly what I posted a few pages ago, and guess what? I have to repeat it while no real argument proved me wrong! Interesting "discussion" ...

[Bryant Cook]

This is a good thing to anticipate Counterbalance being "tried" again, but if you anticipate for Counterbalance why not for Spellstutter Sprite?
Sprite was only played as a replacement of Spell Snare in StoneBlade to have more bodies to equip to Sword. With Snapcaster they are gonna disappear pretty quickly because, well Snpacaster + Spell Snare + Spell Pierce is way better that out-of-tempo Spellstutter Sprites.

I did anticipate for Spellstutter Sprite if you read my post correctly.

Look at Starcitygames top 8 decks, if Spellstutters "suck hard" it probably won't be in any of the U/x decks right? I'm a person who looks at numbers and present trends in the metagame. They've been played within the last few months to answer Hive Mind decks, they're also splash damage against us. I wouldn't be shocked if we see lists playing them in the former misstep slots.

Well if Snapcaster and Spellsnare/Pierce pick up value, it only makes Orim's Chant that much better. Chant is great against Snare/Stifle/Pierce decks. Thank you for helping me prove a point.

Counterbalance may be tried again, but they are not gonna last long. The CounterTop decks already had problems before MMS (GSZ, and a wider range of CCs). So it may be a good short term idea to play Pyroblast, but I'd play Xantid Swarm any day before clunky Pyroblasts.

I'm not arguing the length of them in the format again, but they will be around for the time being. It's a great long term plan as well, Clique, Sprite, Jace, and Mage aren't going anywhere anytime soon.

I prefer to play Xantid in spurts, you don't want to play it all the time because people will prepare for it. Ideally it'd be great all the time but it just isn't, people have multiple ways of answering the bug. Even Merfolk does now between Jitte, Dismember, and Gut Shot. It's just not the right time for Xantid.

I can't believe you dared to say Jace was relevant. When I Duress my opponent this is the kind of card I love to see.

I'm happy to see it too when I'm winning, but control decks can slow us down long enough for it to be relevant. Don't act like it's never happened before.

I have never said that now that Misstep is gone Flusterstorm is the card to play. I'd run Xantid Swarms before any other anti-hate card. But that makes me laugh when people say that Flusterstorm is "terrible" when they say at the same time that Pyroblast is awesome. Hey, this is exactly what I posted a few pages ago, and guess what? I have to repeat it while no real argument proved me wrong! Interesting "discussion" ...

Well you kind of did, I just went back and reread the last few pages.

What a crazy play...no seriously one extra storm for one red is not a reason to play this card.
Flusterstorm is way more usefull because it hits discard spells like Toughtseize or Hymn to Tourach.

I just think it's funny/don't understand that Bryant says that Flusterstorm is terrible because it doesn't play well with LED while he plays Pyroblast in the board. Only advantage of Pyroblast is to counter a blind Counterbalance, which doesn't happen a lot of time these days.

Xantid is the card to run now that people have put up an argument it seems. "No real argument proved me wrong", nice childish antics. How old are you? Twelve?

People have been stating why Flusterstorm is worse over the last two pages, you can choose to believe it or continue being immature.

IMO, the problem with Orim's Chant is that it doesn't address Vendilion Clique, which has become either the primary or secondary disruption in a lot of Tier 1 decks like NO RUG and Stoneforge.dec While Orim's Chant forces them to play Vendilion Clique, if they discard your threat then they've gained card advantage, informational advantage and positional advantage. With Thought Seize, and to a lesser extent Duress, you at least retain card parody and information parody. Granted our match up has improved vs. NO RUG thanks to Daze replacing Mental Misstep, but Vendilion Clique remains a serious problem to the Orim's Chant and Duress disruption package, Xantid Swarm is of dubious SB value vs a deck that wont SB out its removal because it doubles as disruption vs. Ad Nauseam (direct damage) and Pyroblast, IMO, has always been awkward with LED and/or Hellbent and still doesn't address game 1.

The problem isn't Chant, if thier only business spell is Clique, you probably should've already won. Thoughtseize doesn't do anything to the rest of their hand, you're talking about hands where Cliques are their only business spell and it's never actually like that. People in this thread are always talking about taking Cliques, Sprites, or Mages with 'seize but fail to realize that their hand probably looks like this... "Spell Pierce, Spellsnare, Clique, Daze". Is Clique always the right play depending on your hand? With most hands Snare is the better call, but if you Chant, they're probably going to react not having mana for Clique.

Pyroblast, IMO, has always been awkward with LED and/or Hellbent and still doesn't address game 1.

I don't even know where to start with this, It was never meant to address game one. It's a sideboard card for a reason.

Despite Thought Seize being worse vs. Force of Will and other counter spells, I still it's good enough to be played vs them while being significantly better vs. Counterbalance, Vendilion Clique and SB hate bears while having the added possibility of playing a straight U/b/r manabase. I really think in the presence of turn 2 Vendilion Cliques, Orim's Chant is over kill vs. Force of Will and Thought Seize is a necessity (3xMD, 1xSB).

I'll concede that Thoughtseize is better vs Counterbalance and Hatebears. However, with trends being the way they are, post Misstep, there's going to be a lot of Tempo decks and people trying to run Counterbalance. We should be prepared to beat them both, not concede one or the other. Chant destroys these tempo decks which is why we've been playing it for years. For the hatebears, they're sideboard cards, we have more than enough sideboard answers to deal with them where it doesn't need to influence our protection.

[Final Fortune]

It depends on the deck in question, when you're playing against NO RUG they're never really holding more than Force of Will and/or Vendilion Clique, since Spell Snare and Spell Pierce are non existant in those lists and Daze is mitigated by waiting and drawing into mana. We can all come up with hypothetical situations where Orim's Chant is better than Thought Seize or vice versa, but on a micro level Thought Seize is better vs. Vendilion Clique than Orim's Chant and given the metagame it may be the right call because NO RUG isn't going anywhere and all of the Stoneforge decks are playing with X Vendilion Clique and experimenting with Counterbalance.

And yeah I know Pyroblast is a SB card, my point was unlike Xantid Swarm you can't MD it.

[thefringthing]

I'm pretty amused that my poorly thought-out suggestion of Flusterstorm has caused this much angst in the thread.

Chant is good and getting better. I'm frustrated enough by the shakiness of the TES manabase that I'd be happy to play some blue, black, or red spell in that place, despite the fact that any such replacement is going to be weaker protection. (This may be entirely personal preference. I am coming around to the claim implied by Ari and AJK recently that choice of Storm build is largely up to personal preference.) Bryant mentioned above that Chant is good against tempo decks, but those decks are all running four Wastelands, and it's Chant that makes TES vulnerable to mana denial.

I suggested Flusterstorm without testing how poor the interaction with Lion's Eye Diamond was. It is indeed very bad. Thoughtseize is perhaps a more viable replacement for Chant which is especially useful against decks using hatebears like Gaddock Teeg and Ethersworn Canonist. It also slows down Batterskull decks, which are predicted to remain a significant part of the metagame. On the other hand, four Thoughtseize seems like enough to make the life loss relevant (so there is some anti-synergy with Ad Nauseam).

[r0ckstAr]

Discard spell are less interesting in TES than they are in straight-up ANT : we do have 2 storm engines that work poorly with discard : IGG because it will give them back their FoW, Diminishing Returns because one of the 7 cards they draw might be very relevant...

That's why we stick with gold lands : once chant or silence is resolved, you know you just have to get storm 9 by any means necessary, fetch a tendril and pay 2BB.

[thefringthing]

I'm willing to imagine a TES where Past in Flames replaces Ill-Gotten Gains entirely, and we just don't play Diminishing Returns. (As I've mentioned before, I don't like the card much and avoid casting it as much as possible.)

I guess my suggestions would move us toward a speedy build of TNT, really.

[OurSerratedDust]

Flusterstorm has been discussed, please read the last few pages before posting.

Legacy does have Counterbalance, Jace, Vendillion Clique, Spellstutter Sprite, Snapcaster Mage, and other things that may trouble us. Instead of playing a conditional Spellpierce because it's a cute trick, play something that's actually useful and relevant such as Pyroblast.

Pyroblast has the benefit of never stopping you from becoming Hellbent too, which does matter if you've ever actually played the deck.

This is the last thing I will say about Flusterstorm.

If you need to be hellbent and have IT + Flusterstorm in hand, you can do this:

Cast Infernal Tutor
Cast Flusterstorm targeting IT
Storm triggers
New Flusterstorm copies target the original Flusterstorm

Everything resolves and you end up with the exact same outcome as with Pyroblast.

Legacy also has cards like Hymn to Tourach, Duress, Thoughtseize, and Firespout, in addition to being a house in the mirror. Flusterstorm has a little thing called Storm, which means that Force of Will isn't particulary effective against it. This alone can make it much stronger than Pyroblast. When you're playing a storm deck and you're in a counter war, storm counts tend to get pretty high.

Also, did I mention that it is blue? Every single land in our deck can make U, while only most of our lands can produce R.

I'm not saying that Flusterstorm is better than Pyroblast. In fact, if Counterbalance comes back in full swing, Pyroblast will almost certainly be better. I'm just saying that a lot of you guys make judgments on cards without giving them more than two seconds of thought. Are you too lazy to test it? Or do you worship Bryant too much to make your own opinion?

[Kanti]

It did get a little bit out of hand. Especially the guy who "suggested" closing the thread to end all discussion. (Aren't you the guy who suggested adding Slithermuse? Not a bad suggestion by any means but I am willing to bet you would have shot it down)

Flusterstorm isn't that bad, but it does seem terrible if it's job would be replacing Pyro. Pyro isn't only good vs Cb-Top, though it is pretty damn great there.

Point is though, it was just a suggestion. And here is an even worse idea!

Drain Power

[thefringthing]

Ugh. Lost to an honest-to-god retarded woman playing Burn today. This deck is a rancid heap of garbage. Thank god for Planeswalker Points.

(Game three I cast Diminishing Returns with a black mana floating, exiled my Tendrils, had no way to generate a red mana to cast the Burning Wish in my hand.)

[Sturtzilla]

(Game three I cast Diminishing Returns with a black mana floating, exiled my Tendrils, had no way to generate a red mana to cast the Burning Wish in my hand.)

So after seeing this I just had to ask, how do you guys normally cast Diminishing Returns? More specifically, how much mana floating, available mana sources, etc.? I almost always manage to D. Returns into a hand with no usable material no matter how much mana I float (I do realize that the former is not dependent on the later). The new hand would be like a bunch of silence effects, and discard spells, and most notably no tutors, win cons or mana generation. Would you guys just attribute this to bad luck or are there ways I am not using to make my odds on D. Return better? Thanks for the help guys.

[thefringthing]

Well, as I mentioned above, I think the card is just garbage. TES isn't TPS and Diminishing Returns isn't Timetwister.

[OurSerratedDust]

So after seeing this I just had to ask, how do you guys normally cast Diminishing Returns? More specifically, how much mana floating, available mana sources, etc.? I almost always manage to D. Returns into a hand with no usable material no matter how much mana I float (I do realize that the former is not dependent on the later). The new hand would be like a bunch of silence effects, and discard spells, and most notably no tutors, win cons or mana generation. Would you guys just attribute this to bad luck or are there ways I am not using to make my odds on D. Return better? Thanks for the help guys.

You cast Diminishing Returns when you NEED to win. It is sort of a last resort thing. If IGG and EtW won't cut it and you have some extra mana, go for it. Diminishing returns is kind of a discouraging card on its own because it is luck based, but if you have faith in it and play it correctly, I promise you it will make you win far more often than it will make you lose.

Also, be sure to check the first post. There are some handy statistics on how much mana to float and what colors with DR.

[Kanti]

You guys are doing it wrong. Diminishing Returns is by far my number one wish target. There isn't another sorcery that can come close to it's power level.

Read the opening post, it gives a bit of detail about what you should be floating.

On another note, how useful has PiF been for you guys? I've only needed to use it once and it was amazing (It was vs a blue deck where I somehow had 11 mana, cast a PiF to watch it get Forced, flashed it back and proceeded to beat face). Still that was pretty situational and since then I have not really been Wishing for it all too often.

Edit: Do you also think that the deck should go back to running x1 Empty and x1 Ad Nauseam? After playing with 2 ADN's main I don't think I can go back : (...

[jin]

I almost always manage to D. Returns into a hand with no usable material no matter how much mana I float (I do realize that the former is not dependent on the later). The new hand would be like a bunch of silence effects, and discard spells, and most notably no tutors, win cons or mana generation. Would you guys just attribute this to bad luck or are there ways I am not using to make my odds on D. Return better? Thanks for the help guys.

I agree, DR is giving me crap recently... I've fizzled pretty much everytime I cast it in the last 2 months..

[KevinTrudeau]

With Stifle decks potentially seeing a surge of popularity in the coming weeks due to Snapcaster Mage becoming legal, I'm thinking Xantid Swarm in the main wouldn't be a bad idea. Something similar to frogboy's list circa last year doesn't sound too bad; I don't hate rainbow land manabases, but I think I'd prefer a fetchland-based one a bit more as I get my feet wet with the deck. As a reminder, here it is:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Xantid Swarm
3 Duress

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
2 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony

4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

SB:
4 Thoughtseize
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Dark Confidant
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot
1 Reverent Silence
1 Pulverize
1 Diminishing Returns

I'd love to somehow fit a Bayou in since I've often times found myself wanting to cast a Swarm T1 and then cast a DR T2, but I don't think it's doable without severely disrupting the manabase and Pulverize.

[Tammit67]

Chant is good and getting better. I'm frustrated enough by the shakiness of the TES manabase that I'd be happy to play some blue, black, or red spell in that place, despite the fact that any such replacement is going to be weaker protection.

Between petals, 6 gold lands, and chrome mox, I have had problems casting chant when needed somewhere around 7 times since I picked up the deck last year, seriously. I rarely find the color requirement to be as much of an issue as much as I find the amount I have to be. Wasteland can sometimes prevent me from hitting the white, but the problem I really have is it keeping me off the 5-6 mana for Ad Naus or IGG.

Bryant mentioned above that Chant is good against tempo decks, but those decks are all running four Wastelands, and it's Chant that makes TES vulnerable to mana denial.

In my eyes it is still way better than seize. This deck is the BEST deck to run Ad nausem, because we play 5 colors. We run fast, and anything that hurts our speed is cut for something better in another color. Seize, in addition to not being amazing with IGG (admittedly a secondary concern, but a valid one), costs us 2 life whcih roughly translates to 2-3 extra cards off Ad Naus. That's my biggest issue with it.

My friend (HungryLikeALion)once built a deck that ran pretty much everything I needed testing against: Sprite, Clique, Wastes, Force, Snare. Even then, I didn't want seize and ended up doing well enough that he considered pierces as well. If they have all that in hand, you probably have time. If you don't have time, they probably don't have all that in hand. Man up, and cast your shit.

Diminishing returns is amazing, so long as you play the odds. I never want to cast it with less than 2 mana floating, but I'll be damned if it hasn't won me games I have had no business winning. I have reached for my sideboard with nothing floating against lethal fish and removed his counter and won. I can't imagine cutting it in the near future. Past in Flames does nothing that Dim Rit does, and is honestly better compared to IGG, which is pretty bonkers. Not getting LED is my biggest concern, and when I go IGG, almost always do I snag LED. If I'm not getting LED, I had a god hand or neither PiF or IGG would have helped and I ought to go for goblins with my wish.

[Deviruchi]

Well, as I mentioned above, I think the card is just garbage. TES isn't TPS and Diminishing Returns isn't Timetwister.

You use DR when other paths won't win you the game. Without DR there will be less chances to win. Ask yourself is it better for you.

On another note, how useful has PiF been for you guys? I've only needed to use it once and it was amazing (It was vs a blue deck where I somehow had 11 mana, cast a PiF to watch it get Forced, flashed it back and proceeded to beat face). Still that was pretty situational and since then I have not really been Wishing for it all too often.

I like it more and more. I had a lot time to waste and testing proved that PiF is very good. I won many games because of BW -> PiF that people even started to side in gy hate. I haven't remove IGG yet. From testing I like it a lot more than 2nd Deathmark but it can obv change.

[stasis]

I agree, DR is giving me crap recently... I've fizzled pretty much everytime I cast it in the last 2 months..

+1 but i keep doing it... had 2-11 mana floating and i keep getting acceleration and no action.

each time i say, just bad luck...

[Tammit67]

+1 but i keep doing it... had 2-11 mana floating and i keep getting acceleration and no action.

each time i say, just bad luck...

If you have 2 mana floating, your new 7 should be able to kill over half the time. If this probability isn't being realized, it is simply because of luck

[jin]

+1 but i keep doing it... had 2-11 mana floating and i keep getting acceleration and no action.

each time i say, just bad luck...

maybe it has something to do with our boarding? I think in this case, boarding out Infernal Tutor is a bad idea (I board out IT against blue). Maybe we should try to notice when we are casting DR?

I don't really pay attention to this since I usually cast DR when I'm completely screwed. I actually have to cast it quite often since I still only play one Ad Nauseam... Hmm..