Bryant, do you plan to make a report from last saturday's Vestal tourny? I know you didn't top, but it'd be insightful to hear what worked and what didn't.
This is what I am currently messing around with. The list is constantly being tweaked since you encounter all kinds of interesting situations when your opponent is actually doing stuff rather than just goldfishing. Here is what I am currently playing:
4x Duress
4x Burning Wish
4x Brainstorm
4x Rite of Flame
4x LED
4x Petal
4x Dark Ritual
4x Ponder
3x Chrome Mox
3x Infernal Tutor
3x Simian Spirit Guide
2x Mystical Tutor
1x Thoughtseize
1x IGG
1x AdN
1x Tendrils
4x City of Brass
3x Gemstone Mine
2x Bloodstained Mire
1x Polluted Delta
1x Volcanic Island
1x Badlands
1x Underground Sea
Sideboard
4x Empty the Warrens
2x Shattering Spree
2x Chain of Vapor
1x Infernal Tutor
1x Thoughtseize
1x Tendrils
1x Grapeshot
1x Diminishing Returns
1x IGG
1x Slaughter Pact
I really like how this plays. It sacrifices no speed and gets a little more consistent, especially in the mana department. Not sure how much I like not playing Chant, but I really like being able to play Duress the turn before I combo off so I know what I am up against then have that extra B on the combo turn, assuming all is safe. The SB plan is to bring in EtW and explode in their face. I don't like the Pyroblast plan at all so I just say fuck Counterbalance and focus on speed. You still maintain the good Landstill matchups and a fairly similar CB matchup. I am not saying this list is refined or anything but, everytime I sleeve up TES I usually take it apart 40 mins later after I have some insane consistency issues, this list has been together for quite a while!
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
Lol, it also happened to me at least 3 times
But, about the list, the question is: since you're losing some of the speed, why just not play a more solid deck (all the lands are fetches or duals+basics) like NLS or straight UBr ANT w/ Burning Wish? Rainbow lands are there exclusively to support 4 colours; once you give up on these, 3 colours are easily manageable with traditional configurations.
I am really just trying to find a good balance between speed and consistency. NLS is not really my kind of deck and BW ANT is just ... garbage for the most part, it is one of those compromise decks that tries to do too much and ends up being just marginally decent at everything.
The reason for the gold lands is that I have been stuck on 1 mana quite often and the gold lands will add all three colors if needed. In goldfishing you are correct, gold lands aren't needed, but in practice against opponents who run Sinkholes and Wastelands, having a land that adds all colors infinitely helps out the consistency. The problem with TES is that it so often loses to itself, which is the bad side of the tradeoff for total speed. I am trying to find a build that is consistent enough without Sensei's Divining Top, but contains the raw explosiveness that the ANT Hybrids don't have. Cause all these decks are fast, and I always side with the consistent combo decks (why I started playing DDFF) over the fast (quit playing Belcher due to the randomness). I think this list is a very good compromise between the two.
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
Just wanna say i have mad respect for both yours and bryant's builds and arguments for which kind of storm deck to play. It was because of you and bryant that i started playing combo (im back and forth with ddant hybrid and tes right now) and i love every game i sleeve it up for.
@pulpfiction- with your lack of chants, the one thing i dislike about not running chants is not being able to IGG loop safely thru permission. 4 duress definitely does help figure what plan theyre working with, but if u see random counters, ur kinda forced to go for ad nauseam right?
Last edited by tgDC$; 01-12-2010 at 02:21 AM.
I'm glad you like my list.
I've tried the Simian Spirit Guide path and it just doesn't fit the speed of the deck at all. Cabal Ritual has tested to be way for valuable.
Who cares if she was dead, we did her anyway...
@tgDC$: Thanks man, I appreciate that! The reason for no Chants is I am trying to support the Empty the Warrens in the SB. Playing discard effects allows you to strip EE and Pyroclasm effects out of the control players hands before you go nuts. I have played this strategy before with the older SI builds and I quite like relying on speed rather than trying to mull into a blast to take care of CB. I am just trying a new approach, but I totally agree about the IGG loop. With the new SB plan you actually board out IGG and bring in 3 of the 4 EtW from the side. Not sure how this is going to pan out, but I am going to play this list on wednesday at my local cardshop.
@Super Bean: CR is better? I originally ran 1x CR as a MT target but, SSG is so much better in the deck. It adds that much needed R for free, CR adds the same amount of mana as SSG but you first have to tap 2 lands or play a DR first. Sure it adds +1 storm but, SSG does a whole lot more for the speed of the deck.
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
Took 9th at TOGIT today, I got to draw off a standstill though!
Last edited by Jim Higginbottom; 01-17-2010 at 02:32 AM.
@ pulp fiction: could you explain why you started to use fetchlands in your build ?
thanks a lot.
I can't speak for Pulp_Fiction, but in the last list I tested, I played 2 fetches mostly for the ability to shuffle after a Brainstorm and to diminish the effectiveness of Wasteland in decks not packing Stifle. At the same time, since TES is already tight on lands, getting blown out by a Stifled fetch is something you really want to prevent. Three fetches opens up that possibility a little bit too much for my liking, but I have no testing to back that up, so perhaps Pulp_Fiction can explain his reasoning better.
Hey guys, I was wondering if those more experienced with the deck could offer and sideboarding advice for the build below (or one similar to it)? I'm new to the format and am looking for pointers on sideboarding vs the major archetypes in general, and how to do it with this deck without really diluting it's strengths. Thanks!
Land
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
Creatures
2 Simian Spirit Guide
Artifacts
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
Instants
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Brainstorm
2 Mystical Tutor
2 Orim's Chant
1 Silence
1 Ad Nauseam
Sorceries
4 Burning Wish
4 Ponder
3 Infernal Tutor
3 Duress
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
Sideboard
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Duress
3 Pyroblast
1 Echoing Truth
1 Krosan Grip
2 Shattering Spree
1 Hurkyl's Recall
EDIT: I do see the matchup analysis in the second post, but wasn't sure how old the decklists and card choices used for that post are. If that's still the best tool to use, please let me know.
@oRen and VsTheWorld: The reason for fetchlands is for their effectiveness with Brainstorm. Brainstorm, then fetch, shuffling away shit. Yes, it does open you up to Stifle but ... not really that much. It is also a great deterrent against Wastelands and gives you the ability to have 2 lands in play at the same time in the face of a Wasteland by just dropping a fetch into play and not using it then playing another land from your hand. The reasoning behind playing so many lands is I like the consistency it adds to the deck and I don't have to run 4x Chrome Mox (which I hate as a 4-of). Upping the land count to 13 has made a huge difference! The list has changed a little, I slowly learned how fucking awful Thoughtseize is ... basically all the time so here is a new revised version:
4x Duress
4x Burning Wish
4x Brainstorm
4x Rite of Flame
4x LED
4x Petal
4x Dark Ritual
4x Mystical Tutor
3x Ponder
3x Chrome Mox
3x Infernal Tutor
2x Simian Spirit Guide
1x Orim's Chant
1x IGG
1x AdN
1x Tendrils
4x City of Brass
4x Gemstone Mine
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Polluted Delta
1x Volcanic Island
1x Badlands
1x Underground Sea
Sideboard
4x Empty the Warrens
2x Chain of Vapor
2x Xantid Swarm
1x Shattering Spree
1x Infernal Tutor
1x Tendrils
1x Diminishing Returns
1x IGG
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Ancient Grudge
Another bonus to playing more lands is you get to consistently cast awesomeness like Ancient Grudge on a regular basis! I couldn't play without Chant so I added 1 to the main and removed Thoughtseize completely but upped it to 8x gold lands to be able to cast the 1x Chant, 2x Swarm, and flashback the Ancient Grudge. And not playing 4x Mysticals just seems wrong, but I play DDFT and ANT Hybrids so ... I just like them. I understand the logic of only running 2x, it fundamentally turns the deck into a turn 2 deck anyway, well, Ponder usually does that as well so ... I would rather be turn 2 consistent than turn 1 fast. That is why I always take TES apart after a while, I have serious consistency issues but with this list, its has been really good!
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
Pulp, I think your list can afford -and should-play a second Chant. Using almost only Duresses won't do the job against aggro-control, considering that TES relies heavily on the 2cc tutors+LED chains, way more than how ANT does.This opens you up to a great vulnerability against Spell Snare, and you know better than me how it's sad to lose to spell snare after havng gone all-in because your Duress could take either it or FoW. Plus, TES can't do SDT shenanigans after having craked LED, so if you fail, it's basically over.
Long time ago i designed a fetchland-with version of TES which tried to gain more consistency while not losing too much speed. It ended up being pretty good, but having the usual problem of opening 4-colour hands or something very similar.Still, here's the list:
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
1 [U] Underground Sea
1 [R] Volcanic Island
1 [A] Badlands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [8E] City of Brass
// Spells
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
3 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [LRW] Ponder
2 [MI] Mystical Tutor
2 [PS] Orim's Chant
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [B] Dark Ritual
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [JU] Burning Wish
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
3 [MR] Chrome Mox
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [US] Duress
1 [TO] Cabal Ritual
1 [M10] Silence
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 2 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 3 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 1 [10E] Deathmark
SB: 1 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
As you can see,I play 13 lands like you, with the difference that 4 fetches are to me the minimum quantity to support a deent Branstorm+Fetchland interaction. There's also 1 more Chant, but perhaps you can go without it adding a Mystical tutor to balance the loss.
The sideboard is quite different, I would like to try to fit 3 Xantid Swarm in it but re-adding more rainbow lands would basically lead to come back to more TESesque versions, with the consequent loss of consistency. And Pyroblast, though not being Chants, are damnly good, too.
As long as we're all posting lists:
// Lands
4 [5E] City of Brass
2 [A] Underground Sea
1 [B] Volcanic Island
4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
// Creatures
2 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
// Spells
1 [M10] Silence
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [M10] Ponder
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [4E] Dark Ritual
2 [6E] Mystical Tutor
3 [PS] Orim's Chant
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [BD] Brainstorm
3 [7E] Duress
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
3 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [7E] Duress
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 2 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 2 [M10] Deathmark
SB: 3 [IA] Pyroblast
I want to drop
-1 C Mox for another Rainbow land. But which is the next best one (I already dropped a fetch for the second U Sea, so fetch is not an option atm).
-2 Chant effects for additional discard. What other B card is good discard without a life cost? In the past I would've said Cabal Therapy, but I don't like it as much since Spell Pierce.
Alright, I took TES to my local tournament tonight and made it to a top 4 split out of 22 people. I got very easy matchups but the list was very consistent, never fizzled on AdN, and won through some very weird scenarios. Here is the list I played and a very short summary of what happened:
4x Duress
4x Burning Wish
4x Brainstorm
4x Rite of Flame
4x LED
4x Petal
4x Dark Ritual
4x Mystical Tutor
3x Ponder
3x Chrome Mox
3x Infernal Tutor
2x Simian Spirit Guide
1x Orim's Chant
1x IGG
1x AdN
1x Tendrils
4x City of Brass
4x Gemstone Mine
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Polluted Delta
1x Volcanic Island
1x Badlands
1x Underground Sea
Sideboard
4x Empty the Warrens
2x Chain of Vapor
2x Xantid Swarm
1x Shattering Spree
1x Infernal Tutor
1x Tendrils
1x Diminishing Returns
1x IGG
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Ancient Grudge
Round 1 - LED Dredge
g1: IGG, 2x LEDs, Dark Rit and Burning Wish end it on turn 2 or 3.
g2: I keep an amazing opener and win VIA IGG loop again on turn 2 after a Mystical Tutor.
Round 2 - Eternal Garden
g1: He scoops after I fetch a land, lol, we know eachother and he had already conceded but we were screwing around.
g2: I mull and get locked out of the game with Wastelands but end up winning after a BW for IT, then IT revealing LED, then LED, LED, Burning Wish # 2. For what its worth he was at 26 life when I won.
Round 3 - Eternal Garden (ChokeSeemsGood)
g1: He is playing the super secret tech and casts a turn 2 and 3 Extract on me after double Burning Wish for Extract and Regrowth on it! I lose IGG and Tendrils but shape a good hand and IT into BW for IGG then reclaim everything and Tendrils for 24 (had a second BW in hand).
g2: One of the most epic games I have ever played, I would type it up but it would be long as fuck, so here is the cliff notes version. I mull to 6 and keep a marginal hand. I get double Extracted again and win with 14 Goblin tokens after he has depleted his resources and doesn't have an active Loam!
Round 4 - ID
Round 5 - Eternal Garden (ChokeSeemsGood) yet again!
g1: I keep an opener of: Land, Mystical, AdN, Petal, Dark Ritual and the rest is irrelevent. Turn 2 double Rit into AdN ends it.
g2: Opening hand of: Rite of Flame, Dark Ritual, land, land, Mystical, Ponder, Brainstorm. He plays land, Exploration, Maze of Ith, go. I draw something irrelevant and play land go. He plays Burning Wish for Extract, go. EOT Mystical for AdN seals it and I am in the top 4 where we decide to split the store credit.
These are not hard matchups, and I felt terrible I had to play my buddy twice. But, this tournament taught me how resilient this deck is to Wasteland and how consistent the list is. In retrospect, a split of 3x Silence 2x Duress in the main would probably be best, with Blasts and Swarm in the SB. I am not sure I like the idea of the EtW plan, which is the only reason I run 4x Duress over Chants. Maybe playing 3x Blast and 2x Swarm in the board would suit this particular 75x cards better. Thoughts?
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
The list I'm taking to the last possible GPT I can go to, tomorrow. (For Madrid, obv):
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
2 Forbidden Orchard
3 Chrome Mox
2 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Orim's Chant
1 Silence
4 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
2 Mystical Tutor
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB:
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Diminishing Returns (even though I hate this card)
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Deathmark
1 Thoughtseize
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Shattering Spree
1 Grapeshot
1 Echoing Truth
The fourth REB might become an additional Chant, but I feel like REB is the best choice. Any comments?
That 4th Duress really should be a Chant in the maindeck.
Also, c'mon guys, all of these lists are getting ridiculous.
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