I have the Mesmeric Orb + Basalt Monolith combo to mill me as much as I want.
Let's say that I have Sensei's Divining Top in play and exactly 2 Gaea's Blessing in library. My library+graveyard is componed of exactly 48 cards (multiple of 3). I want to use my combo to tutor the card I want, assuming that I can repeat the milling often enough to mill all my library but 3 cards : the card I want to tutor and both Gaea's Blessings. Can I do that? How can we set the game state after this?
As far as I can see you need 1 mana for your Top at least every 3 mills to make sure you see the new cards and don't accidentally hit Blessing too soon. So basically you would also need 'infinite' (or at least alot of) mana?Originally Posted by Maveric78f
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
Sorry, I must have explained it bad. I put the top 45 cards in my yard. At this point I know my top 3 cards.
I decide to repeat this until my known top 3 cards are 2*Gaea's blessing and 1*card_I_want_to_tutor. I just need 1 mana in that case.
Traditionally, as far as I know once you've demonstrated your infinite loop you can simply state the number of times that you're going to do it. I know that this number needs to be an English number (You can't do it a googolplex.)
But with this loop, there is a unique action happening every time you mill, and while given enough time you will eventually mill all but Card X and 2 Gaea's blessing.
But the problem seems to be that unless you have at least one mana available, you'll never be able to verify if those three cards are:
Card you want
Blessing
Blessing
And while, once again, this will statistically happen, yo would likely need 2 tops in play to be assured that you will get the card that you want.
Here are the rules on this and according to them I don't think you can speciify a contingency upon which your combo ends like, I'm going to do this until you concede or until you fall asleep:
421. Handling “Infinite” Loops
421.1. Occasionally the game can get into a state in which a set of actions could be repeated forever. The “infinity rule” governs how to break such loops.
421.2. If the loop contains one or more optional actions and one player controls them all, that player chooses a number. The loop is treated as repeating that many times or until the other player intervenes, whichever comes first.
421.3. If the loop contains at least one optional action controlled by each player and actions by both players are required to continue the loop, the active player chooses a number. The nonactive player then has two choices. He or she can choose a lower number, in which case the loop continues that number of times plus whatever fraction is necessary for the active player to “have the last word.” Or he or she can agree to the number the active player chose, in which case the loop continues that number of times plus whatever fraction is necessary for the nonactive player to “have the last word.” (Note that either fraction may be zero.)
Example: One player controls a creature with the ability “: [This creature] gains flying.” Another player controls a permanent with the ability “: Target creature loses flying.” The “infinity rule” ensures that regardless of which player initiated the gain/lose flying ability, the nonactive player will always have the final choice and therefore be able to determine whether the creature has flying. (Note that this assumes that the first player attempted to give the creature flying at least once.)
421.4. If the loop contains only mandatory actions, the game ends in a draw. (See rule 102.6.)
421.5. If the loop contains at least one optional action controlled by each player and these actions don’t depend on one another, the active player chooses a number. The nonactive player can either agree to that number or choose a higher number. Note that this rule applies even if the actions could exist in separate loops rather than in a single loop.
Last edited by cdr; 11-02-2009 at 09:47 AM.
Offler: I think that you completely missed the point.
??? Why ???And while, once again, this will statistically happen, yo would likely need 2 tops in play to be assured that you will get the card that you want.
I mill all but 3 cards. As I know my list, I know what are the 3 remaining cards in my library. I don't need to look at the cards. Once I'm sure the card I want is in the top 3 cards, I can activate top for 1 and put in on top. Then, I can tap top to draw the card. The point is that I don't want to shuffle top with my library/graveyard, so that I want the setting I've described: 2*gaea's blessing+1*cardIwant. It's rare enough that I'm quite sure I will never encounter it if I try to do it within the limited time. But I'm also sure it will happen if I repeat it enough times. My library+graveyard can be revealed to my opponent. I explain I repeat the mililng process until having the exact 45 other cards in my graveyard.
See this older thread for (drama) reference, specifically this post.
Also this thread/post.
Short answer: No, that is not a loop.
“It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.”
-David DeLaney
There is still a difference with the thread you've digged up:
- I don't have to choose a number of milling in the beginning
It should change the rule, since, it's 100% sure that coming to the game state I've described will happen at some point. If I have to choose a number N before (as with brain freeze), there is always a small possibility that the researched event does not happen.
However this post answers quite the same question.
I do not understand what you mean. Both situations are covered there - setting up a number of effects beforehand, like with Brainfreeze, or actively controlling an effect, like with Basalt Monolith.
“It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.”
-David DeLaney
I'm picking nits here, but googolplex is a valid English number.(You can't do it a googolplex.)
I find this rule bad. But, eh, that's the rule.
"It can’t include conditional actions, where the outcome of a game event determines the next action a player takes."
This is the important part. Your "loop" requires a condition (When these specific 45 cards are in my graveyard I end the loop). The only way you can end a loop is to state you do it N numebr of times, and at that point you must do it exactly N number of times. Also your situation is not a true loop since the outcome is not predictable, thus you are not able to take the shortcut.
well i think i miss the point Maverick. From the cards you gave, and situation i think that you was tapping and untapping Basalt Monolith to trigger Orb, in order to mill yourself to trigger the blessings and shuffle your grave...
Lets say you used "put on bottom of library" effect in order to set up gaeas blessings and tutored card on bottom, OR you milled yourself infinite number of times until your grave does not contain gaeas blessing and the last "tutored" card (althought to process such combo will take a lot of time and attempts lets say you will skip it by putting in you library desired cards).
Am I correct? Even if not the rest might be interesting for you.
If you want to mill yourself you do not need say that you are doing it N times, you are just repeating the process unless you are satisfied with resulted state. Then you just say that you have stopped the combo at some point (when you have exactly three cards in your library).
I use selfmill with Mind over matter and Archivist.
if the combo works as i have understood it, you are who controls its flow. You are starting the combo and you are stopping the combo, its not like playing Stroke of genius with (lets say) 70 of mana in X.
But this may take up a ton of time he doesn't have, especially if he wants to do it multiple times.
I know. I just dont know if he can say that "i have tried the combo 1 milion times so there is probability that three last cards in library are like this" and then he can set three cards as he wish, just because of high probability after tons of milion attempts. Surely he can choose any number of attempts.
But honestly, this is not a combo i would like to play... I am sure it works, but i dont believe that someone will be so patient to watch it, even in case when the false attempts are skipped for faster game progress.
As I understand it, the problem is that, no matter how many times you try this, there will be a chance, which basically becomes what in the real world would be neglectibly low, that you will not have reached the desired order of your library. Thus, you can't be sure that, no matter how many attempts, you reach it, and therefore you can't take the shortcut.
Realistically, this ruling is pretty rediculous, as the chances of not being able to reach this deck order can become randomly small to the point where they surpass stuff like your cards falling through the table. It's very unreasonable to not allow a player to take the shortcut.
"Part of me belives that Barrin taught me meditation simply to shut me up."
-Ertai, wizard adept
http://solidarityprimer.proboards85.com/index.cgi
It should be noted that if you do this in a tournament setting, the judge will ask what you intend to do with all this milling.
Depending on the judge, and your answer, you face some serious issues with stalling and disqualification.
Suddenly, Fluffy realized she wasn't quite like the other bunnies anymore.
-Team R&D-
-noitcelfeR maeT-
I feel the same way after reading through this thread. What are the ways in which this could be abused such that this ruling is currently in place? Or, on the other hand, is the ruling outdated and only recently became of note because of recently released cards?
No, these rulings have been an issue ever since Timetwister recursion has existed.
The main issue with manually going through the loop is time. In a tournament setting, you don't have all the time in the world to do whatever you please.
Suddenly, Fluffy realized she wasn't quite like the other bunnies anymore.
-Team R&D-
-noitcelfeR maeT-
It says that the loop covers only deterministic plays, but I'm not clear on what that means.
Say you are floating Green mana equal to your opponent's life total (he went off with Life, and then you have some infinite combo to generate a lot of G).
You have a Future Sight in play. Your Library contains 0 cards.
You have two Gaea's Blessings, three Tormod's Crypts, and a Tendrils of Agony in hand.
No matter what you shuffle up, you can just recast the Crypts on top until you get to a a Blessing where you can cast Blessing off the top, shuffling the other Blessing back and as many crypts as you can. If you happen to draw the Blessing, you can play out the Crypts from the deck, then cast Blessing from hand to do the same effect.
You can combo out, and it's 100% certain that there is a way to play each loop such that you continue to play, with each 1G mana generating two or more to the storm count.
(At the very least two, because Blessing allows you a draw -- the "worst case" is that Blessing puts a Blessing second from the top, so you can only cast the Crypt you drew + the next Blessing -- except when you multiply by two from Tendrils, even if that happens EVERY TIME, you'll still win).
Can your opponent force you to play the game out given those circumstances?
It's 100% chance / deterministic, but the "loop" involves making different decisions depending on what happens. Still, all clearly get back to the original game state + more storm
Not deterministic, not a loop. You are not repeating the exact same actions X times. You have to play it out.
“It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.”
-David DeLaney
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