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Thread: [Deck] UW Tempo

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    [Deck] UW Tempo

    UW Tempo
    Updated 04/12/10


    Videos
    http://www.youtube.com/user/ForbiddianSC
    So I've been recording my MWS games recently, recording an audio commentary some of the more interesting ones, and then posting them on youtube. You can watch the videos for advice on how to play, to see how the deck works in a real game situation, or just for entertainment value because you like Magic.



    Deck Concept:
    Instead of thinking of it as Aggro/Control, think of it more like a Control deck that runs creatures. In general, you’ll have inevitability with your powerful draw spells and the fact that your creatures have secondary abilities and are extremely cheap (and everyone can carry Jitte).

    The big difference between this deck and other decks is that the creature's red zone capabilities aren't the primary way we judge creatures. With few exceptions (Bob, Grim Lavamancer, maybe Cursecatcher), every creature in Legacy is played for its ability to fight in the red zone. Occasionally creatures will do something else nice to break ties.


    UW Tempo looks at creatures the other way: Creatures are spells that also also have a second use as a creature. The fact that a spell is a creature affords it some disadvantages and some massive advantages, but this deck mitigates the disadvantages and exploits the advantages extremely well.

    Every creature is born with the ability to deal damage to the opponent in a stalled situation. Two or three small creatures adds up to a lot of damage, especially noticeable if the creatures were played for other abilities. The fact that it's now doing damage is just icing on the cake, which forces your opponent to luck into answers for spells you would have played anyway.

    Every creature can chump block in an emergency or double/triple block in normal situations.

    Every creature can carry Jitte and force your opponent to remove it.


    Keep that in mind when you look over the card selection. Obviously UW Tempo benefits from larger creatures the same as any other deck, it's just that the size of the creature isn't even the main goal of many of the creatures.



    Advantages of UW Tempo (or Why UW Tempo Wins So Much):
    It will always have a chance in any matchup. The deck runs blue with Force of Will, Daze, and Spell Pierce as well as creature removal and gas to stay afloat against Aggro. The worst matchups are around 40%, so you can go into any long tournament with confidence that you make your own fate.

    The mana base is very stable, given what it needs to do. The deck can operate off of 1 land (and in a featured match on TV, it won with 0 lands). It can even operate off of a single basic land without an Aether Vial, which is basically something no non-combo deck can do, and has many ways to draw into more lands. It also only requires 2-3 land in play as the maximum, so Brainstorms can put a lot of gas into your hand.

    It has inevitability. Most decks in Legacy simply don't have a draw engine, relying on card quality advantage to win the endgame. Not only does this deck need fewer lands (and thus Brainstorm more effectively), it runs a draw engine that actually turns your opponent's 1:1 for quality trades against him. Umezawa's Jitte is also an automatic ticket to board control if it resolves.

    There is no good spot removal for any of the creatures in UW Tempo. Most all of the creatures either have a CIP ability that makes them worthwhile or they only cost W. Whether you pick up a mana-tempo or a few life or a basic land, you are gaining on your opponent by simply playing creatures onto the board.

    All of the creatures are good on their own in many different situations and all the creatures are dominant with Jitte. They don't require Lords to be in play to be good and don't require a buddy in play to be good, so you don't have to walk into Wrath of God and spot removal doesn't neuter your team (three Merfolk Lords is 12 power, but two Merfolk Lords is only 6 power, and one Merfolk Lord is only 2 power, encouraging you to overextend).





    Deck File:

    // Lands
    2 [MI] Plains (3)
    1 [MI] Island (4)
    4 [B] Tundra
    4 [ON] Flooded Strand
    3 [TE] Wasteland
    3 [ON] Windswept Heath

    // Creatures
    4 [CHP] Serra Avenger
    4 [UL] Mother of Runes
    4 [ON] Weathered Wayfarer
    1 [ALA] Knight of the White Orchid
    2 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
    2 [CS] Jotun Grunt
    4 [TSP] Fathom Seer

    // Spells
    3 [NE] Daze
    2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
    4 [IA] Brainstorm
    4 [AL] Force of Will
    3 [DS] AEther Vial
    4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
    2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

    // Sideboard
    SB: 1 [CS] Jotun Grunt
    SB: 1 [SHM] Wheel of Sun and Moon
    SB: 3 [LRW] Burrenton Forge-Tender
    SB: 3 [WL] Aura of Silence
    SB: 2 [ARE] Enlightened Tutor
    SB: 1 [CHK] Ghostly Prison
    SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
    SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
    SB: 1 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
    SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist


    Card Explanations:

    Lands:
    4x Flooded Strand
    3x Windswept Heath
    4x Tundra
    2x Plains
    1x Island


    This is the most efficient allocation of 14 colored lands allowing for play around non-basic hate. Polluted Delta is not recommended, because fetching basic Plains is more important than fetching basic Islands. It's noted that with the printing of Zendikar, 3x Arid Mesa or a combination of white fetches (now that they are available) are better than 3x Windswept Heath.

    3x Wasteland (or 4x)
    This is a big part of the deck. For a while, we were running 4x (with 1 less Vial). 4x Wasteland is very effective, but on the whole Vial has proved to be stronger in a lot of the problematic matchups. With only three wasteland, the deck has more explosive power at the cost of some consistency.

    If your meta has a lot of nonbasics (especially combo decks with non-basics), then running the fourth wasteland over the third Vial might be a good idea.


    Creatures:
    4x Weathered Wayfarer: This is probably the deck MVP. This deck is just about the best deck in the format at 1cc and is the best deck in the format at 2cc. Opponents will almost certainly lose without playing the second or third land. Be happy to wait it out, even with an expensive hand. When your opponent has to play a land, be happy getting a Wasteland and generating card advantage and color screwing your opponent. You can play any number of fetchlands that you want as well and then jumpstart yourself to Fathom Seers.

    Keep in mind a 1/1 isn’t as useless as you’d think with Umezawa’s Jitte available, so even if he just digs one land the whole game he’s extremely cost-effective.

    Also, there are some tricks: You can fetchland (or wasteland) and activate Wayfarer. You can activate Wayfarer at opponent’s endstep and again after draw step to get 2 Wastelands (activate after draw if you’d be happy to see a Wasteland on your draw step, even if you’re otherwise flooded). You can also float a white mana and activate if they play a Wasteland and sac immediately or Sinkhole your land. Fathom Seer and Daze obviously combo. Especially if you have a Brainstorm in hand, you should continually search your library when possible. Deck thinning is very important and helps us win long games, as does using Brainstorm like an Ancestral Recall. He also is useful as a shuffle, so if you Brainstorm first, you can shuffle off the chaff.

    4x Mother of Runes: The most recent addition to the team. She’s a defensive tempo-generating machine. She costs just W and usually trades with their removal immediately or blocks their creature drop all day long (and it still costs them a removal spell to get rid of her). If Mom survives until endgame, she is useful protecting your Jitte carrier from being removed. She seems pretty weak, but there are stunningly few decks in the format who can ignore her or even allow her to lose summoning sickness.

    She seems small, but there really aren't very many decks that can win while she's active, so she'll almost always at least block and then take a removal spell, or take a removal spell immediately.

    4x Serra Avenger: Serra Avenger is a very solid card. The drawback isn’t too punishing. She carries Jitte over enemy lines (and can still block on defense). Mainly she’s in there for flying, which is very important. The number of slots waivers around 2-4. Generally this deck doesn’t have very much to backup a quick beatdown attempt, but the fact that she puts the opponent on a flying clock while playing defense gives you a huge leg up sometimes.

    Serra Avenger is back up to 4x in the standard list. We've refocused the deck more on the aggressive option. It generally makes the deck easier to play and highlights more advantages. The last week or so, we've been working on the control MU, and Avenger is the card you want to see.

    1x Knight of the White Orchid: With Vial, you can almost guarantee getting a free land out of it (just sac a fetchland and in response Vial in the Knight). He allows for an extremely fast post-Fathom Seer recovery, letting you chain together a horde of creatures and more draw spells. He also holds Jitte like a champ (the first strike opens up a whole new can of combat math worms). Oh, and he eats Goblins and Merfolks all day. This could also be cut for a third SFM.

    2x Stoneforge Mystic: As soon as this got spoiled, a preordered a set. Honestly haven't had that much time to playtest since she was spoiled (just about 30-40 games with her), but she's been amazing so far. The problem is that these get worse with more equipment -- what you really want is you want SFM to fetch the first Jitte so you can use the body and the equipment. In this situation, she's insanely good. Unfortunately, SFM requires equipment to be in the deck to function, and the more SFMs you run, the more you require extra equipment to ensure you're getting use out of SFM.

    Jitte is Legendary to boot, so after you get the first one, you don't want to see another one. There really aren't any really good equipment outside of Jitte right now (the next-best is SoLS, which is clearly better than anything else out there, but still a bit outside playable).

    3 SFM, 2 Jitte and 2 SFM, 2 Jitte seem to be the only two really good options.

    2x Jotun Grunt: Grunt eats every commonly-played creature in the format either by outsizing them or by removing the graveyard. It’s very strong, but drawing 2 of them sucks really badly except against a few decks, so that’s why we only run 2. He’s not as strong against Ichorid or Reanimator as you might imagine (if you haven't played with him before, you might think he's graveyard hate), but he is a *GOD* against Zoo (and Aggro Loam). He's exactly 1 bigger than everything that they have and shrinks their Goyfs and hurts Lavamancer.

    4x Fathom Seer: This is so unbelievably strong in this deck. He’s what Mulldrifter is for Faerie Stompy. You play him. You draw cards. You abuse his “drawback.” He does many things. He really looks like just an awful, awful card, but with the many ways this deck uses land differential, his drawback is manageable if not downright advantageous.

    This deck is very happy trading cards down primarily because Fathom Seer comes in to win the topdeck wars.

    Instants:
    4x Force of Will:
    This card is amazing.

    4x Brainstorm: The best spell in the format. It prevents mana floods from hurting (it actually ends most mana floods before they even happen), and it’s useful in a pinch against a mana screw.. Best spell in the format.

    4x Swords to Plowshares: Again, not a tough call.

    3x Daze: If 3x isn’t the standard number now, it’s at least accepted. Drawing multiple Daze slows us down a bit, especially when we have Fathom Seers to worry about, but the card is amazing and has synergy with a lot of the rest of the deck.

    2x Spell Pierce: This card came in as a replacement for Ancestral Visions, which wasn't really performing against much of anything except black discard. The cards we were testing in parallel to replace it were: 1 extra Daze, Spell Pierce, Spell Snare, and Divert. Originally we landed on Divert because it was more closely tailored to covering Ancestral Vision's matchups, but after more changes, we landed on Spell Pierce. It's amazing against all storm combo and belcher, and generally is a solid card that's very tough to play against. It's possible to run a lot of 4cc bombs around daze, but SP is quite reliable to stop their big play as well as help play the tempo game.


    [b]Other cards:
    3x Aether Vial (Vial): It combos with every single creature in the deck (even Fathom Seer, because it lets us use the cards we draw immediately). Because our deck is almost always on defense (or winning easily), Aether Vial is used a lot as a combat trick or bluff in our deck.

    Drawing two of them is just a mess, however. I never want to see two. If I do, the only recourse is a Brainstorm. Still, with the added changes, Vial is more effective, reflected by our cheating on the land count more.

    2x Umezawa’s Jitte: This is the glue that holds the rag tag group of creatures together. I like to imagine that my creatures are the chimps from 2001: A Space Odyssey. They’re weak, like getting pushed around and stuff. Then one of them figures out it can make a club out of an animal bone and beats the living shit out of everyone. That’s Umezawa’s Jitte.

    A lot of games you’re just playing to resolve and protect a Jitte carrier for one turn to charge up Jitte. Actually, that’s what you’re trying to do in probably most matchups.

    With the printing of SFM, we can run additional artificial copies of Umezawa's Jitte.


    Sideboard: I'm only listing the matchups that these cards are boarded in against, this will also save you time constructing board plans.

    1x Jotun Grunt: Zoo especially (four toughness), decks with Goyf, decks that use the graveyard, fast aggro decks.
    3x Aura of Silence: Decks with artifacts/enchantments you need to answer. Good matchups where you think that they might have artifacts or enchantments that would beat you. Storm combo (shuts out artifact mana). Also a solid wildcard pick if you don’t know what to bring in.
    3x Burrenton Forge-Tender: Zoo, Goblins, Ichorid. Great in all three of those matchups, although Ichorid and Goblins are less-played and Zoo is running KoR and Steppe Lynx over red creatures.
    1x Ghostly Prison: I cut a BFT for a Ghostly Prison, which is stronger against Elves, Goblins, Merfolks, Affinity, Ichorid... and worth playing against Zoo and Belcher (so similar to BFT in that respect). With the fall of Ichorid and Goblins from popularity in recent months, and a lot of Zoo players replacing Kird Ape with Steppe Lynx, BFT is no longer such a bomb. GP has a very similar effect to BFT with some added diversity.
    2x Enlightened Tutor: All combo decks: Ichorid, Storm Combo, Solidarity, Reanimator.
    1x Thorn of Amethyst: Storm Combo, Solidarity.
    1x Ethersworn Canonist: I think Jeff doesn't believe in this one, so it should be in a parenthetical. EC is huge against Elves and Enchantress, and generally does about 90% of what Thorn of Amethyst does against combo. Against combo, you still tutor up the Thorn first, but EC gives you a strong sideboard option against Elves and Enchantress.
    1x Relic: Decks that have or are likely to have Crucible or Loam, Storm Combo, Ichorid, Reanimator.
    1x Tormod’s Crypt: Ichorid, Reanimator, Aggro Loam.
    1x Wheel of Sun and Moon: This is a great tutor target. It's ridiculous against Ichorid, and in other matchups there are situations where it will win the game where Relic and/or Crypt will fail. Often hate cards are specific to the type of hate present. With the three yard hate board (Relic, Crypt, Wheel), it's hard to find a truly effective answer. Ancient Grudge, Null Rod, Pithing Needle don't shut down our options the way that they're supposed to.




    Matchup Breakdown:

    Aggro Control: Our deck fairs pretty well against them. Decks with more non-basics are easier, and decks that invest more in trying to kill our lands are easier. Decks that focus more on early game are easier as our deck is pretty much designed to stall until Fathom Seer, Jitte, Court Hussar, etc. give us an insurmountable advantage.

    Tempo Threshold Our strongest matchup, it's probably around 75-80%. None of their cards does anything while all our cards are bombs. Their main strategy is land denial/trading cards down and then trying to win off of a big goyf or an unremovable Goose, but it's difficult to deny land against 3 vials, 4 Wayfarers, 2 Knights of the White Orchid, and 4 Brainstorms.

    Tarmogoyf is typically a 3/4 in this matchup. The only sorceries are a couple of Ponders, and nobody runs enchantments, so Goyf is an anemic clock. Grunt is absolutely a trump card in this matchup. None of their removal kills him, and he outsizes their team as well as shrinking it down for later posterity. They also don't really have an answer for Mother of Runes, which just stalls the game out indefinitely and demands removal (which is already stretched thin, since their 3/3s really don't outsize us by enough to make attacking profitable).

    Regular Threshold (Nassif Thresh) Our weakest matchup against a tier 1 deck. Probably it's around 40-45%. They have a lot of trouble with Wayfarer, but if we don't draw Wayfarer or they have the answer, then they can often take the upper hand. They also have a similar play (to Wayfarer) in Bob. It must be answered quickly or else we lose. Angel is surprisingly very good in this matchup, and is often a must-eventually-answer (with Swords only). Typically the ground war stalls out and then Angel can swing the game in our favor.

    Fortunately, Nassif Thresh is horribly positioned in the current metagame. Nassif used to crush combo off of Counterbalance, but the new Belcher decks are much more resistant to CB. Nassif Thresh is also too slow to handle Zoo, and its draw engine on Bob is designed to beat control decks, not aggro decks.

    Merfolk: A favorable matchup, around 60% or a little more. If you can keep them off of two Lords, then all your guys actually outsize their guys and you'll win the Red Zone conflicts. Decks that neglected to run Umezawa's Jitte are extremely disadvantaged in this matchup. Lord of Atlantis is their strongest card, but Fathom Seer can be used in a pinch to blank the Islandwalk (and you can often make wasting your own Tundra profitable enough that they can't attack. In general, most situations where they're attacking, they'll lose if you have the Swords (or vial in the right creature).

    You'll generally lose if they get, like, 3+ Lords out. But until that point, you have every single advantage. Your creatures are bigger or the same size with better abilities. You have removal. You have Jitte. You have more countermagic and your draw spells are more powerful and less conditional.

    Aggro: Again our deck is pretty much designed to stall, so it's difficult to catch us off guard with all of our one-drops. Aggro decks that reliably have less than 3 toughness are significantly easier because Knight of the White Orchid is an additional house against them. Knight can turn 3:1 plays with tempo. Mono colored aggro is more difficult, although we have Burrenton Forge-Tenders specifically to combat Goblins (mono goblins has absolutely no answer for BFT).

    Zoo: Mother of Runes, Swords, etc. are just great in this MU. Obviously you focus on surviving and then resolving a Jitte for the game. The faster Zoo matchups are favorable for us, and the slower variants with Sylvan Library and such are closer to 50%. Both variants are pretty vulnerable to land destruction. They run enough that they won't get mana screwed, but with Kird Ape and/or Nacatl in the mix, you can force them into tough spots just with the threat of Wasteland. Jotun Grunt is huge in this matchup and should be boarded in.

    Goblins: It used to be closer to 55 or 60%, but now it's like 80%. This is a very favorable matchup, especially with the new popularity of Mono Red who have no answer to BFT and weaker answers to Mother of Runes. They're favored slightly to win if they open with Vial and you're strongly favored to win any time that they don't. Just draw Jitte, play it, and sweep them. Variants with Goblin Sharpshooter do much better against us, splitting or even taking the edge depending on other card choices. Fortunately since M10, Mogg Fanatic got nerfed to pieces (so Jitte is even stronger), and Goblin Sharpshooter plays are less common, and Warren Weirding is basically gone.

    Combo: Our combo matchup isn't as strong as, say, a faster combo deck's or Counterbalance deck's, but any time you start the game with 3 Daze, 4 Force of Will, you have a chance. Our sideboard is designed with the combo matchup in mind. You'll notice that every single card in the sideboard comes in against one combo deck or another, and some come in against all combo decks.

    Ichorid: We have the following: Jotun Grunt (stops any multi-turn attempt to combo), Burrenton Forge-Tender (stops same-turn comboing), Daze/Force (slows them down), Tormod's Crypt/Relic (slows them down again), Jitte (wins the game if they got slowed down), Mother of Runes (slows down any slow-roll plans), Swords (answers their namesake or a non-Iona reanimation target), Wasteland to reactivate Daze, etc.

    It's pretty similar to how Death and Taxes has a good Ichorid matchup. It's not that we have a very fast clock, it's not that any individual hate card prevents them from winning, it's that we cover so many of their outlets to try to win quickly and then Jitte wins the game. It's virtually inconceivable to lose with an active Jitte on the table, so Ichorid typically has to try to win before then.

    Storm Combo: Thorn of Amethyst, Aura of Silence, Relic of Progenitus (among other duties, it stops Cabal Ritual), Tormod's Crypt, Enlightened Tutor for any of the above, Daze, Force, Wasteland.... Their typical strategy against aggro control is simply to keep drawing and slow-roll. With the presence of these hate spells (which are each game-winning), it makes any slow-roll a big gamble.

    TES doesn't usually have the gas to go off turn 1 (or turn 2 on the play), and then if they haven't gone off by then, they risk Thorn of Amethyst (something they wouldn't have to worry about against e.g. Merfolk). If they try to go off blind, they risk Daze/Force/Spell Pierce. Even if we don't draw Thorn or Enlightened Tutor, giving us a third land lets us activate Aura of Silence.

    Every turn they pass without going off gives us a bunch more outs. Someone just glancing over the list might not appreciate how much more difficult it is to play against UW Tempo than against Merfolk in the combo matchup, but the thick stack of hate or potential hate coming in games 2 and 3 makes the slow-roll a poor choice.

    Belcher
    Sadly, I neglected Belcher. I despise Belcher as a deck. It's not elegant like Solidarity or skill-intensive like TES. It's just Yahtzee. And I can't imagine the mirror matches. Oh, the humanity! But apparently it's doing really well, so dust off your Spell Pierces everyone!

    Belcher is a coinflip against every deck in the game, but we at least have 3 Daze, 4 Force, and 2 Spell Pierce, so I think we fare better than most. "Clocks" are more or less irrelevant, but they don't want to let us play any land. We get 4 hates at 0 land, 5 more at 1 land, 4 more at 2 land (counting Enlightened Tutor for Thorn), and 3 more at 3 land.

    I don't really have enough data, I'd say it's a 60% matchup just based on the probability that they fizzle and the probability that we get Force of Will from the draw and/or Daze/Spell Pierce from the play. If you win the coinflip, you get a pretty huge advantage.



    Matchup Score (rate Forbiddian's predictions!)
    Bant (included CB Bant and NO Bant)
    8-5-1

    Tempo Thresh
    5-0-1

    Goblins
    3-3-1

    Zoo
    4-4-2

    Ichorid
    8-3

    ANT
    6-6

    Belcher
    6-1

    Merfolk
    9-0-2

    Lands
    2-3-1

    Survival Bant
    2-1-2

    Eva Green
    2-2


    Appendix
    Complete Sideboard Plans
    See Post #197. The sideboard is slightly more updated, but the board plan is very similar. Take it as-is, no explanations are given, YMMV, buyer beware. Still a useful resource.

    All tournament reports
    Due to recent criticisms levied, and some thought (believe it or not, I actually had thought about the problem, but on more recent thought I thought of a slightly better solution), I’ve changed the way that the tournament reports are tabulated.

    There is a problem of people only recording their top performances with the deck and not posting all of the times that they lost. This obviously would make UW Tempo look better than it is.

    Ideally we want results from every tournament played by every person ever playing UW Tempo, because the results serve a more important purpose than bragging rights: I actually go through these to identify potential problem matchups and discuss with other UW Tempo pilots problems and solutions.

    To help alleviate the problem, the tournament reports are now categorized into two distinct categories:

    1) Trusted Reports
    2) Questionable Reports

    A trusted report is at a minimum risk of this sampling error. It’s a report posted by a regular user of The Source or a user who can in another way be datamined. A trusted report is a report from a user who has shown willingness to post ALL of his finishes, even unimpressive finishes. I just want to give a shoutout to Tinefol, who has done an amazing job.

    Only Trusted reports will be used for further data analysis.

    The rules
    Any user who has posted an unimpressive finish is trusted, and all his tournament reports are trusted reports. By posting an unimpressive finish (possibly at my veritable begging for people to do this), he’s displayed a willingness to put the data first. These users can be counted upon for reliable tournament results.

    Exception: for obvious reasons, reports from Forbiddian and pi4meterftw are trusted. And at any rate, if either of us went to a big tournament and didn’t make top 8, you’d hear about it whether we told you or not. I can’t go to a tournament without people recognizing my girly voice from Youtube (or how much of an asshole I am).

    Note: This sets an upper limit to how well UW Tempo can possibly do, since players are essentially required to do poorly before their matches can be counted. For two examples: Jeff and I have never done poorly with the deck, so I’m sure at least a few of the tournament reports posted in the Questionable column are indeed the only tournaments ever played by those people. Although in the interest of having only the most trusted possible data, I’m removing the deck’s winningest performances.

    To this end, I’ve removed a TON of reports with amazing finishes because I’m just not sure if those users are posting all of their results or not.

    If your report is Questionable: Please keep posting results. Eventually you will have a bad day :-P. I will still look at questionable results and maintain the list, so it’s still very useful to me.

    If you can show some proof (e.g. an image of your match history from The DCI) that you’ve posted all of your tournament results, the report will be moved to trusted. Yeah, it’s a lot of work, I’m sorry! It would help us all out, though, if you could do this.

    If your report is trusted and you have not posted a poor performance and have no plans to post the results in the future (or have forgotten the results), please post in the thread so I can move your reports to questionable. You can check your DCI match history to help you try to remember, I’ll work with you to try to salvage any data (or possibly just add the results to the total without having specific game-by-game results)

    If your report is trusted and you’ve not posted a GOOD performance, I would like to see the results if possible, but don’t worry about it too much, we’re mainly looking just to avoid missing bad performances.

    Questionable Reports
    Anatural Death*: 5-2-1 @ SCGs.
    RexFtw: 5-1. Goblins (1), Threshold (1), ANT (1-2 loss), Stax (0), ANT (1), Dream Halls (1).
    mcnubbins2t*: 5-1. Ug Faeries (1), Life.dec (?), Dreadstill (?), Bant Survival (?), Ichorid (?), Rb Goblins (0-2 loss)
    Amaroid*: 4-0-1. WStax(1), BUG Thresh (1), Tempo Thresh (0), Bant Survival (1), Zoo (1-1-1 draw).
    Chokin*: 3-0. GR Burn/Sligh (0), Dredge (0), Canadian Thresh (0), NOBant (ID (1-0 win in the fun game))
    Little Red Riding Hood's friend: 5-0-2. Trisomy 21 (0), LoamRock (1), BantSur (0), NLS (1), Ichorid (0), ANT (1-1-1 Draw), Ub Faeries (1-1-1 draw)
    Nelis: 2-1-1. Thropter Combo (0-2 Loss), Dragon Stompy (1-1-1 Draw), Faeries (1), Dredge (1),
    Scud: 2-0. Goblins (0), Landstill (1)
    Ocean: 4-1. Countertop (0), Zoo (1), Demon Stompy (0), Goblins (1), Zoo (1-2 Loss)
    Hattivita: 5-1. CT Bant (0), Merfolk (1-2 Loss), MBA (0), Ichorid (0), Ichorid (0), Lands (1)
    huygee
    3-0. Landstill (0), NO Bant (1), Dragon Stompy (0).

    Jedi_Gof: 4-1. WB Aggro (0), MBC (0), ANT (1), NO Bant (1-2 Loss), Lands (1),
    Jedi_Gof: 3-2. Losses to Reanimator and Aluren.
    Jedi_Gof: 5-0. Meathooks (0), Ichorid (0), Zoo (0), Lands (1), Merfolk (0)

    Even though Jedi_Gof played in multiple tournaments, and had a fairly unimpressive finish, he wasn’t consistently posting all his data. Unfortunately his 12-3 record is pretty damn impressive, so it’s a shame I can’t take it.

    Fouzt
    4-2. Dredge (1), Reanimator (1-2 Loss), Countertop (1), RGB Goblins (0-2 Loss), Eva Green (1), Mono G NO Pro (1).

    This guy is also on the fence. He didn’t make top 8, and I have assurances that it was his only Legacy tournament (so he couldn’t possibly be leaving tournaments out). Still, I set up the rules to increase transparency and confidence in the data collection, so Fouzt is out. Sorry, Eric, I still want to find out how you’re doing with the deck if you go to any more events. I might see you in May.

    "Clarance" (not a member of The Source, but I've been getting regular updates on his performance since he lives sorta by me
    5-1-1: Tempo Thresh (0), Zoo (0), ProBant (1-1-1 draw), Supreme Blue (1), Merfolk (?, win), Belcher (0), ProBant (0-2 loss)
    6-1-1: Zoo (1-1-1 Draw), Merfolk (1-2 Loss), Zoo (0), Bant Survival (0), Merfolk (0), Rgb Goblins (0), Merfolk (0), Merfolk (0)

    Again, pretty sure these are the only tournaments he’s been to, but he’s not even a source member, so whatever. I still would like to get updates on how this individual is doing. Go Clarance, I might see you in May.

    Total Questionable Report Record: 70-14-8



    Trusted Reports:
    Forbiddian:
    5-1 @ Pro Tour. Ugr Dreadstill (1), Tempo Thresh (0), Merfolk (0), Enchantress (1), Belcher (1), Top 4: Enchantress (1-2 loss)
    4-2-1 @ Knightware. SI Pact (0), Tempo Thresh w/ EE (1-1-1 draw), Pro Bant (0), Painter's Grind (0), Pro Bant (0-2 loss), Dragon Stompy (1), Top 8: Eva Green (1-2 loss)
    Total: 9-3-1

    pi4meterftw
    7-1. (See Star City Games Database for match history)
    Total: 7-1

    Aaron Wayne:
    Awayne*: 5-1-1. (See Star City Games Database for match history)
    Awayne: 6-2-1. (See Star City Games Database when it's posted -- doesn't look like this is happening)
    Awayne: 1-2. (See Star City Games Database when it's posted -- doesn't look like this is happening)
    Total: 12-5-2

    Tinefol:
    1-2*. Goblins (0-2 loss), Aluren (0-2 loss), ProBant (0)
    1-3. Crappy MonoU Illusions/Donate (1-2 loss), ANT (0), B/w Midrange (0-2 loss), Enchantress (1-2 loss)
    3-0. Belcher (0), RGW Aggro Loam (0), Merfolk (0)
    3-1. LEDless Ichorid (0), ANT(0), BGWSA(0-2 loss), Goblins (0)
    6-0. Merfolk (0), Train Wreck (1), Tempo Thresh (0), Swans (1), Tempo Thresh (0), Train Wreck (1)
    2-1-1. Bant (1-1-1 draw, 40 minute rounds, said he had it wrapped up), Dark Depths (0), Zoo (0-2 Loss), Aggro Loam (0).
    5-4. Survival Bant (0-2 loss), Dream Halls (1), Merfolk (0), Dreadstill (0-2 loss), Dream Halls (1), Bant CB (0-2 loss), Dragon Stompy (1), Bant CB (0), ANT (1-2 loss)
    3-1. Lands (0-2 loss), Eva Green Depths (0), Bant CB (0), Bant CB (0)
    3-1. Ichorid (?), MUC (?), Team America (?), Belcher (? Loss).
    3-2. Reanimator (?), Reanimator (?), Enchantress (?), Ichorid (? Loss), Countertop (? Loss)
    2-2-1. ANT (?), Faerie Stompy (?), MysticFish (? Loss), Reanimator (? Loss), Zoo (1-1-1 Draw).
    4-0. BGW Fish, UW Fish, ANT, MonoU Faeries. Game data unknown.
    4-0. Reanimator (0), Mono G NO Survival (0), Merfolk (1), Reanimator (0)
    2-1-1. UR Fish (0-1 Loss [Editor’s comment: Holy shit! Long game]), UW Mystic Fish (1-1-1 draw), Zoo (1-0 Win [Editor’s comment: Holy shit^2]), BGW Rock (0).
    3-2. Bg Train Wreck (0), MonoG Progenitus Survival (1), Bant-Something (#922) (0-1 Loss), MUC (0), Bant-Something (0-2 Loss)
    2-2. Ichorid (0), BGW Survival (1-2 Loss), White Weenie (0), Mono G Prog Survival (0-2 Loss)
    Total: 47-22-3

    Stuckpixel:
    1-1-1*. W/B Pestilence (0), Eva Green (1-2 loss), Goblins (1-1-1 draw)
    4-0. Type 2 Allies (?), B/W Pestilence (?), GBW Midrange (?), Reanimator Hulk (?)
    2-1-1. Merfolk (1-1-1 draw), 4c Landstill (0-2 loss), Lands (0), Merfolk (0)
    Total: 7-2-2

    Colo:
    1-2-1*. Type 2 Soldiers (0), Bant Countertop (1-2 loss), Bant Survival (1-1-1 draw), NO Bant (1-2 loss)
    2-2 (possibly 2-0-2): Unknown matchups.
    3-0-1: Bant Survival (?, win), Aggro Loam (0), GW Survival (1-1-1 draw), Some European Gwb Loam deck (1).
    3-1: Elf Aggro (?), MBA (?), WG Weenie (0), Survival (0-2 loss).
    2-0-2: MBA (1), Dredge (0), Trisomy 21 (1-1-1 draw), Trisomy 21 (1-1-1 draw)
    1-2. NO Bant (0), Reanimator (0-2 Loss), Imperial Painter (0-2 Loss)
    3-0-1. UW Crap (0), Bant Survival (0), Non-Imperial Painter (0), Trisomy 21 (1-1-1 Draw)
    Total: 15-7-5

    Jeanbathez
    1-1-2*. Merfolk (1-1-1 draw), Goblins (0), Supreme Blue (1-1-1 draw), Elves (1-2 loss), Bgw Loam Pox (No idea what happened)
    3-1-1. Zoo (0-2 loss), UB Mill (0), Belcher (0), UB Reanimator (0), Dream Halls (1-2 loss)
    Total: 4-2-3

    Little Red Riding Hood
    5-1. Zoo (1), ANT (1-2 loss), Tempo Thresh (0), Dragon Stompy (1), Countertop Throper (0), NLS (1)
    3-0-2. Ichorid (1), Lands (1-1-1 Draw), Dragon Stompy (1), Gw Survival (1-1-1 Draw), Ichorid (0)
    3-2. Ichorid (1), Pox (0), UBg Reanimator (1), Death and Taxes (1-2 Loss), Ichorid (1-2 Loss).
    3-0. ANT (1), Rb Goblins (1), UB Reanimator (0), 4c Landstill (0), Dreamhalls (0)
    Total: 14-3-2


    Yan
    7-0-1. ANT (1), Zoo (1-1-1 draw), Merfolk (0), Merfolk (1), Zoo (1); Top 8: Zoo (1), Belcher (0), Reanimator (1).
    3-3. NO Bant (0), ANT (1-2 Loss), Lands (1), BGW Loam Depths (1-2 Loss), Tempo Thresh (0), ANT (0-2 Loss)
    Total: 10-3-1

    Trusted people with only one report, by definition, these have to be losing records
    TooCloseToTheSun
    2-2-1. Elves (?), Eva Green (?), Goblins (? Loss), MWC (? Loss), Bant Survival (1-1-1 Draw)

    kicbak
    2-2. Reanimator (1-2 Loss), Team America (0), Lands (0-2), Merfolk (0).

    Citrus-God*
    2-2. Goblin Sligh (0), Zoo (0-2 loss), NO Bant (1), UWB Countertop (0-2 loss)

    Damnosus*
    1-2. Ichorid (1-2 Loss), ProBant(0-2 Loss), Belcher (0).

    Plague Sliver:
    1-3. Life (0-2 Loss), Ichorid (0), ANT (1-2 Loss), Lands (0-2 Loss).

    Teumie
    2-4. Goblins (0-2 Loss), Stax (1), Faeries (1-2 Loss), RecSur (0-2 Loss), Eva Green (0), Zoo (1-2 Loss).

    Total: 10-15-1

    Total Trusted Record: 135-63-22
    Last edited by Forbiddian; 04-13-2010 at 01:22 AM.

  2. #2
    Here I Rule!!!!!!!!!!
    Phoenix Ignition's Avatar
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    Re: [Deck] NoGoyf

    Reminds me of this deck: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=12065

    Might get some help from there.

  3. #3
    Plays green decks
    Jak's Avatar
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    Re: [Deck] NoGoyf

    Lol at linking to the previous thread.

    IMO, the deck is cool and looks solid. Mom is a card that definitely needs to see more play.

  4. #4

    Re: [Deck] NoGoyf

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition View Post
    Reminds me of this deck: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=12065

    Might get some help from there.
    That's because it is that deck, a year later.

    I've actually been meaning to IM you about some of my results recently (all g1, I didn't have a relevant sideboard), but for the most part testing has gone well.

    For its part, wayfarer/ wasteland is one of the fastest, most vicious LD packages I've ever used, but also really susceptible to crossfire from the greatly increased amount of removal most decks pack nowadays (I blame the rise of Zoo). When I first started playtesting with my group, wayfarer was largely ignored. After the first session though, I had a really difficult time getting him to stick. Ever. I've tried using a stronger counterspell suite (spell snare and recently spell pierce), but have had difficulty finding what to cut.

    I'm not a huge fan of aether vial to begin with (not enough copies to reliably get it before it's irrelevant and as you say, it's a shit topdeck), so my then-current list cut them+ hussar for 3 pierce MD but as long as nogoyf is relatively unplayed/ unknown, I think they're better in the board. Right now, I'm trying a crucible/ enlightened tutor package for wastelock+ jitte-searching shenanigans (cutting aether vial, 1 knight of white orchid and reluctantly, moving 1 jitte to my imaginary board).

    For my part, I'm not a very good pilot but the deck can usually take care of slow obsolete control decks (anything that ends in "-still") by itself. The most trouble for me comes from decks with fast clocks (Zoo can be very difficult and anything with multiple chants always gives me fits, partially why I like spell pierce so much).
    Great success!

  5. #5

    Re: [Deck] NoGoyf

    Quote Originally Posted by IsThisACatInAHat? View Post
    That's because it is that deck, a year later.

    I've actually been meaning to IM you about some of my results recently (all g1, I didn't have a relevant sideboard), but for the most part testing has gone well.

    For its part, wayfarer/ wasteland is one of the fastest, most vicious LD packages I've ever used, but also really susceptible to crossfire from the greatly increased amount of removal most decks pack nowadays (I blame the rise of Zoo). When I first started playtesting with my group, wayfarer was largely ignored. After the first session though, I had a really difficult time getting him to stick. Ever. I've tried using a stronger counterspell suite (spell snare and recently spell pierce), but have had difficulty finding what to cut.

    I'm not a huge fan of aether vial to begin with (not enough copies to reliably get it before it's irrelevant and as you say, it's a shit topdeck), so my then-current list cut them+ hussar for 3 pierce MD but as long as nogoyf is relatively unplayed/ unknown, I think they're better in the board. Right now, I'm trying a crucible/ enlightened tutor package for wastelock+ jitte-searching shenanigans (cutting aether vial, 1 knight of white orchid and reluctantly, moving 1 jitte to my imaginary board).

    For my part, I'm not a very good pilot but the deck can usually take care of slow obsolete control decks (anything that ends in "-still") by itself. The most trouble for me comes from decks with fast clocks (Zoo can be very difficult and anything with multiple chants always gives me fits, partially why I like spell pierce so much).
    Wayfarer is low commitment. It doesn't suck if it's removed. In fact, it's a bit ridiculous that cards that are polarized towards taking it out, such as swords, black removal, either lose tempo to it, or break about even. Pathing wayfarer is ridiculous, and having it eat a burn spell forces the burn player to play burn turn 1. Also, it is not too difficult to protect a wayfarer with mom. Unlike stifle, wayfarer is actually occasionally useful as a beater with jitte, and does not require keeping mana open, and actually generates card advantage, so yes it is quite a vicious lock.

    Zoo is not a spectacularly favorable matchup, in a relative sense to our other matchups, but if you practice with the deck you should find, as Matt and I did in many testing sessions, that zoo is at least 50%, and for average builds more like 60%. You can draw double wasteland, which already shuts them out of some games, start with mom/swords at nacatl, both of which slow the bleeding of their first turn play to 0, or force them to burn turn 1. Force of will gains tempo, while card advantage is gained the usual way. Out of the sideboard you get an extra grunt, which is bigger than every creature zoo has, with the possible exception of Woolly Thoctar, with which it trades if desired. (But this won't be desired because you get 4 BFT also.) As soon as Grunt comes down knights and goyfs will almost be smaller than it next turn.

    Actually, no other fast deck (Beside combo elves which is actually a negative matchup, and aggro elves which is about 50/50) gets much closer than zoo. Merfolk is strictly dominated (which is not to say the matchup is 100% for us obviously, but only that there's no reason to play merfolk. The matchup is about 65-70% at least.)

    I played a few games with some Sourcers and many games against their various lists of TES, ANT, solidarity, etc. I don't know how you have trouble with chant. Playing against this deck is scary for the combo player. First, he must identify that his best chance to win is like ASAP. Some people mistake this deck for fish and try to sculpt a hand. We'll gladly wasteland lock/reduce the life total of such players, as we draw more cards and prepare for the chants. Our sideboard is obviously prepared for such matchups. They turn out to be highly favorable. It is also worth noting that a lot of combo players are bad with their decks, so they might actually be even more favorable than what arose in my testing sessions.

    I don't understand the rationale with "not enough copies of vial for it to matter." People always seem to have comments of this sort at the ready. It's not a black and white thing. Each copy of vial comes with X "Great in the early game" and Y "Bad late game." Granted X and Y may not increase at exactly the same rate due to statistics, but it's certainly not the case that X is 0 until you run 3, at which point it's 100%, while Y steadily increases. Indeed, we run 2 because we think that relative to the other cards and their X and Y, we optimize by running 2. In fact, if many good cards were available (and I mean lots) the ideal decks would run 1 of everything. (Don't forget, if you think this is inconsistent, then your definition of consistent is not one that is useful for calculating win percentages.)

    I can be convinced to expound upon some of the points in the last paragraph but I'm not the best at teaching math even though it's a passion of mine. Perhaps Matt could say something if this turns out to be necessary, or you can look at some examples like "Wouldn't it at least be strictly better to run 1 of everything if there were many card names of the same effect." This is sort of analogous to why we don't just run
    4A
    4B
    4C
    ...

    Edit: Also you not having our sideboard is a big deal. The sideboard turns various combo from "barely favorable" to "Wow this isn't even close." It greatly helps zoo and red, most noticeably goblins.

  6. #6
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    Re: [Deck] NoGoyf

    When I first started playtesting with my group, wayfarer was largely ignored. After the first session though, I had a really difficult time getting him to stick. Ever.
    That's very, very good. It's better to win outright with Wayfarer, but they're certainly paying more than W and 1 card to get rid of him. I almost never use Force of Will and rarely use Dazes to protect my Wayfarers. You're much better off saving your gas to beat your opponent endgame. When your opponent removes him, you're picking up a big advantage. Your opponent's deck is slowing down relative to yours, and he's running out of removal.

    Wayfarer is broken, not because his effect is that strong (honestly Bob has a much better effect), but he only costs W if you don't get to use him. Bob runs into Swords or even Daze and drops you tempo, but Wayfarer cannot be answered at less than cost. The best answers in the game aren't picking up tempo.

    So your opponent has horrible options: 1) Don't answer wayfarer and take the wasteland hits. 2) Don't play more lands (and NG can play fetchlands to stay ahead anyway). 3) use time and cards immediately to answer wayfarer.

    3) is almost strictly the best option for all decks in the format, but NoGoyf is designed to take advantage of when your opponent chooses 3.

    I'm not a huge fan of aether vial to begin with (not enough copies to reliably get it before it's irrelevant and as you say, it's a shit topdeck), so my then-current list cut them+ hussar for 3 pierce MD but as long as nogoyf is relatively unplayed/ unknown, I think they're better in the board. Right now, I'm trying a crucible/ enlightened tutor package for wastelock+ jitte-searching shenanigans (cutting aether vial, 1 knight of white orchid and reluctantly, moving 1 jitte to my imaginary board).
    All those changes are terrible.

    I know people are obsessed with getting a wastelock, because it is a flashy win, but against good players piloting good decks, a few wastelands are more color screwing/card advantaging.

    Crucible of Worlds is an awful play, if only because not every deck in the format runs all that many non-basics, so it's a dead card some of the time. Even against control decks with almost entirely non-basics, Fathom Seer is still a more crippling play, and Crucible needs the first Wasteland to begin with.

    Spell Pierce (and Stifle and other U: Do something that wasn't worth it) is just awful in this deck. You should either be waiting on trying to win the game off of Wayfarer (making sure your opponent has no outs) or tapping yourself down, every turn. I have no idea how you're playing the deck in such a way to keep Spell Pierce mana open, but even then there aren't many must-counters. This deck can play around a lot in its current setup.

    I think maybe you're countering too many spells. Try to think if you really need to counter something before you burn the Force of Will. Daze should be played at anything very strong, but Force should be reserved for spells that will likely give your opponent the win, if resolved.


    Vial is really good in this deck. Try it out against Counterbalance or any aggro deck. It's not quite as good against Aggro/Control, but it makes hero plays happen all day long against Zoo, Merfolk, Goblins, Elves, White Weenie, Faeries, etc. etc. It can also do crazy stuff like Vial stuff in endstep who carry Jitte. Even the threat of that makes people slow down.

    "Drawing it consistently" is a joke. It doesn't matter whether you have 10 copies or 1 copy. Some games you'll start with it. Some games you'll start without it. Some games you'll topdeck it. Some games you'll topdeck extra copies.

    NoGoyf functions best with one copy of it to start, and second best with one copy of it off the top. It functions worse without it and worst with two copies. That's all qualitative, I know, but it gives you an idea why we play two copies.

    Cutting it completely is really bad. It's always better to have one copy, even late-game topdecked.



    Zoo is a favorable matchup, but like any fast aggro deck, they sometimes get a nuts draw. If you're having that much trouble with Zoo, cutting Hussar for a third Vial or third Grunt maindeck is probably the best option.

    The Zoo matchup does get much better post-sideboard. Usually they have irrelevant crap like Krosan Grips, and we get 4x BFTs and an extra grunt, which really help against their removal.



    EDIT: Ah, shit, Jeff and I posted like the same thing. We've been friends for too long.

    About the sideboard, though: You're really hurting yourself by not running a sideboard. A big reason why you'd want to play white is that it gets THE BEST sideboard options in the game. Also, since we're not a combo deck, we rely on the fact that their deck has some stoppable engine that we can exploit.

    I'd say preboard most combo is probably slightly unfavorable, but you're bringing in the best sideboard in Legacy. I didn't talk too much about that, but you get much better board options than other, comparable decks.


    Here's the first Fish/Merfolk sideboard available on Deckcheck. It's not the best (it splashed Green for Goyfs and Kgrips), but just an example:

    "Sideboard
    3 Trinket Mage
    3 Krosan Grip
    2 Chalice of the Void
    3 Engineered Explosives
    2 Tormod's Crypt
    2 Umezawa's Jitte"

    Ok, so like... against TES you bring in 2x Chalice and 3x Trinket Mage, trying to Trinket Mage for Chalice?

    NoGoyf gets: 3x Aura of Silence (pretty much strictly better than Trinket Mage for Chalice), 2x Thorn of Amethyst, 2x Relic, 2x Enlightened Tutor.

    Against Ichorid, you get like... probably the 3x EE and 2x Tormod's Crypt.
    NoGoyf gets 1x Crypt, 2x Relic, 1x Jotun Grunt, 2x Enlightened Tutor, 4x Burrenton Forge-Tender.

    Against the field, having white lets us construct a sideboard in such a way that we're bringing in more cards and better cards than any comparable deck, because white gives us crazy-good sideboard options like BFT, Aura of Silence, and Enlightened Tutor which open up the doors for other hate spells.
    Last edited by frogboy; 11-19-2009 at 03:47 PM. Reason: Moderative dispute removed

  7. #7

    Re: [Deck] NoGoyf

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition View Post
    Reminds me of this deck: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=12065

    Might get some help from there.
    Why would getting this kind of help matter when you make suggestions such as:

    Run aven mimeomancer.
    Run cursecatcher, yeah!

    You were also on the stifle bandwagon. Lol, wait why did you post this thread again? We certainly didn't ask you to and it seems in your best interest to have not reminded anybody of your trolling.

  8. #8
    Team Bad Guys
    mossivo1986's Avatar
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    Re: [Deck] NoGoyf

    Quote Originally Posted by pi4meterftw View Post
    Why would getting this kind of help matter when you make suggestions such as:

    Run aven mimeomancer.
    Run cursecatcher, yeah!

    You were also on the stifle bandwagon. Lol, wait why did you post this thread again? We certainly didn't ask you to and it seems in your best interest to have not reminded anybody of your trolling.
    That's just not necessary. Of all people it's going to be me who says this...

    You both are very intelligent magic players and you both happen to play Fish-Esque decks.

    So when both of you stop acting like your four :) heres some insight for you pia..

    I think you should retest the land-still match-up. At the very least for kicks. I think your missing a big step in the decks evolution, and also you've changed cards in your model that makes a big difference in your current game-plan against the deck. 1. ancestral visions is @ 2. 2. Mother of runes makes you much more susceptible to ee on 1. (obv.) 3. the way to overcome the match-up deficit that sucked for land-still has changed dramaticly. your no longer a mid range beatdown disruption deck (blue rock? one might say?) your much more aggresive. I think this deserves alot more testing.

  9. #9
    Stay frosty.
    lorddotm's Avatar
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    Re: [Deck] NoGoyf

    I'm still wondering how this deck could possibly beat Tempo Thresh.

    Hell even Tarmogoyf is a problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zach Tartell View Post
    Have to ask one of those West coasters about recreational purposes.
    Quote Originally Posted by DownSyndromeKarl View Post
    A baby seal walks into a club.
    West Coast Legacy

  10. #10
    is selling his Underground Seas.
    Tacosnape's Avatar
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    Re: [Deck] NoGoyf

    Given that all of the following are true, which they are-

    A. Meddling Mage = One of the three best White creatures in Legacy.
    B. Meddling Mage = One of the three best Blue creatures in Legacy.
    C. Your deck is White and Blue only, and runs a lot of creatures.
    D. Meddling Mage >> Every other creature in your deck.

    -Why are you not running four Meddling Mage?

    Quote Originally Posted by majikal View Post
    Damn it, Taco, that exactly sums up my opinion on the matter. I need to buy you a beer for that post.

  11. #11
    Taobotmox

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    Re: [Deck] NoGoyf

    I LOOOVE Fathom Seer, it is the one card I always wanted to break for Legacy and never succeeded. The deck looks really solid and synergetic and I think the odd numbers are a result of testing and not randomness.

    However, you look at your matchups way too positive.

    - You say this is the best deck at CC2 in the format. How are Knight, Grunt and Serra Avenger better than Goyf, CB and Confidant?

    - The matchup anylysis is completely insane: at least 50% against DtB Forum, and usuallly "very favorable" or even "close to bye"? come on, be realistic. Or you need BETTER testing partners.

  12. #12

    Re: [Deck] NoGoyf

    I've played against this deck once on MWS. I remember it especially well because of this:

    I have 6 cards in the GY and 3 lands out. Going to cast a Tombstalker.
    Opponent has no lands in play (I killed them all). Has one Vial @ 2. And some small critters including Wayfarer.
    I only remove 5 cards for my Tombstalker and pay 3, keeping a Wasteland in the 'yard for Crucible. I remember specifically thinking "aha! no Daze now, bitches, got no Islands at all!"
    Opponent activates Vial, puts in KotWO, fetches a Tundra, floats mana, Dazes, activates Wayfarer.

    -> lol. I remember being completely and utterly nonplussed by such a cool play.

    Anyway, I have to say this is one of the coolest decks I've seen and I love Weathered Wayfarer especially, I love how he looks in this deck. I gotta put this together on MWS and try it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tao View Post

    - The matchup anylysis is completely insane: at least 50% against DtB Forum, and usuallly "very favorable" or even "close to bye"? come on, be realistic. Or you need BETTER testing partners.
    I have to agree with this though. I love it when I go into every Developing deck and each and everyone claims a positive matchup vs CB/Thresh.

  13. #13
    Stay frosty.
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    Re: [Deck] NoGoyf

    Quote Originally Posted by FieryBalrog View Post
    I've played against this deck once on MWS. I remember it especially well because of this:

    I have 6 cards in the GY and 3 lands out. Going to cast a Tombstalker.
    Opponent has no lands in play (I killed them all). Has one Vial @ 2. And some small critters including Wayfarer.
    I only remove 5 cards for my Tombstalker and pay 3, keeping a Wasteland in the 'yard for Crucible. I remember specifically thinking "aha! no Daze now, bitches, got no Islands at all!"
    Opponent activates Vial, puts in KotWO, fetches a Tundra, floats mana, Dazes, activates Wayfarer.

    -> lol. I remember being completely and utterly nonplussed by such a cool play.

    Anyway, I have to say this is one of the coolest decks I've seen and I love Weathered Wayfarer especially, I love how he looks in this deck. I gotta put this together on MWS and try it.



    I have to agree with this though. I love it when I go into every Developing deck and each and everyone claims a positive matchup vs CB/Thresh.
    I think that was just a misplay by you. There is very little reason not to take that 6th card out of your grave and bluff something.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zach Tartell View Post
    Have to ask one of those West coasters about recreational purposes.
    Quote Originally Posted by DownSyndromeKarl View Post
    A baby seal walks into a club.
    West Coast Legacy

  14. #14

    Re: [Deck] NoGoyf

    Quote Originally Posted by lorddotm View Post
    I think that was just a misplay by you. There is very little reason not to take that 6th card out of your grave and bluff something.
    It was a misplay somewhat, but I didn't know he was running KotWO. Also the 6th card was a Wasteland.

  15. #15

    Re: [Deck] NoGoyf

    I recommend testing the deck. We've been testing it rigorously for almost 1 year now. If for some reason you think 50% is a magic number that no deck should be able to beat against the DTB field then you can convince yourself. The thousands of games (literally) that I've played against DTB isn't going to convince you.

    In fact, we were claiming this from the start. We were each other's testing partner, and believe me when I say Matt and I are competitive. Everything in our friendship is some sort of competition whenever possible. I usually played this deck and he the other deck, but we occasionally switched it up.

    Also, we didn't actually claim a positive matchup against CB thresh. I called it slightly favorable and Matt called it slightly unfavorable. I... don't see what the problem is. We do murder canadian, but that's just because canadian is horrible.

    Oh yeah, also 1 goyf isn't scary. Especially early game. Lategame we do sometimes lose when the guy drops 2-3 goyfs. I usually don't even bother to FOW goyf, and sometimes I don't even swords it. (I usually daze it if I can without slowing myself down too much.) The fact is goyf enters play turn 2 as a 2/3, and swings as a 3/4. With land creature instant in yard, it's not going to be a 4/5 until somebody contributes a sorcery, and that's not trivial, since we only run ancestral visions. Anyhow, usually some combination of grunts, jittes, swords, FOW, and daze make goyf actually rather laughable.

    Edit: Forbiddian is a UCSD student and I attend Caltech. We'd be happy to play IRL (although my deck isn't on me right now.) Also, after today's fat problem set I'll be willing to play on MWS. Then you can bring whatever DTB and try it out. By the way I think people may also be ignoring how consistency (the important kind) matters. We mulligan (calculate it, we can keep hands of 1-4 lands, and almost any hand of this sort) about 10% of the time. Some decks mulligan even twice that much. Crazy risky decks triple that maybe. (Dragon stompy, ichorid, etc.) For the probability of a double mulligan, you might consider squaring the mulligan probability, but it's actually even worse, since 6 card hands are less likely to be keepable than 7. Therefore, the 10-20% difference in mulligan rates that this deck has against the field, especially nonblue decks, increases even more for second mulligans.

  16. #16

    Re: [Deck] NoGoyf

    Quote Originally Posted by Forbiddian View Post
    Ichorid: Very favorable You have just about the best maindeck to fight Ichorid. You run the Force/Daze package, Wasteland, Swords, Mother of Runes, Jitte lets you sac your own guys, and Grunt for kicks. And then you sideboard in 8+ cards.
    It is rather clear you haven't tested the matchup. As a sometime Ichorid player, Mother of Runes, Jitte, Grunt are all too slow in the maindeck. You can basically only ever get rid of Bridges by letting Grunt die, and you have no way to get rid of the Zombies after the Bridges go. And post-board, 3 ways to remove the graveyard and some "Worse than Heap Doll" bridge removers aren't scary. Technically you may be boarding in 8 cards, but they're not all that good in the matchup.
    Magic Level 3 Judge
    Southern USA Regional Coordinator

    Quote Originally Posted by frogboy View Post
    Battle with a ragtag crew of adorable misfits. Narcomoeba and Golgari Thug hook up before the end of the movie.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nihil Credo View Post
    Please be less rambling in your next post. I only bothered with figuring out what the fuck you were trying to ask because I took it as a challenge.

  17. #17

    Re: [Deck] NoGoyf

    Quote Originally Posted by Anusien View Post
    It is rather clear you haven't tested the matchup. As a sometime Ichorid player, Mother of Runes, Jitte, Grunt are all too slow in the maindeck. You can basically only ever get rid of Bridges by letting Grunt die, and you have no way to get rid of the Zombies after the Bridges go. And post-board, 3 ways to remove the graveyard and some "Worse than Heap Doll" bridge removers aren't scary. Technically you may be boarding in 8 cards, but they're not all that good in the matchup.
    I'd actually say it's obvious we tested the matchup since it's pointless to lie about this sort of thing, but I suppose the internet has all sorts. You're welcome to test our claim. Vs. us of course, not some other player who butchers the playing of this deck. See my above post.

  18. #18
    Stay frosty.
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    Re: [Deck] NoGoyf

    Quote Originally Posted by pi4meterftw View Post
    I'd actually say it's obvious we tested the matchup since it's pointless to lie about this sort of thing, but I suppose the internet has all sorts. You're welcome to test our claim. Vs. us of course, not some other player who butchers the playing of this deck. See my above post.
    I'll just have to beat you at the Knight Ware tournament.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zach Tartell View Post
    Have to ask one of those West coasters about recreational purposes.
    Quote Originally Posted by DownSyndromeKarl View Post
    A baby seal walks into a club.
    West Coast Legacy

  19. #19

    Re: [Deck] NoGoyf

    Quote Originally Posted by pi4meterftw View Post
    I'd actually say it's obvious we tested the matchup since it's pointless to lie about this sort of thing, but I suppose the internet has all sorts. You're welcome to test our claim. Vs. us of course, not some other player who butchers the playing of this deck. See my above post.
    Are you two actually any good at building and playing the Dredge deck?

    Edit: Post the list and sideboarding you used for Dredge.
    Magic Level 3 Judge
    Southern USA Regional Coordinator

    Quote Originally Posted by frogboy View Post
    Battle with a ragtag crew of adorable misfits. Narcomoeba and Golgari Thug hook up before the end of the movie.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nihil Credo View Post
    Please be less rambling in your next post. I only bothered with figuring out what the fuck you were trying to ask because I took it as a challenge.

  20. #20

    Re: [Deck] NoGoyf

    Wait, so a generic blue-white Fish list trounces the entire format?

    I can't see how Zoo is positive. Mom and Jitte are about the only things in that matchup that matter, and Zoo has over 9000 removal spells in the main. Also, I'm going to reiterate Taco's call for Meddling Mage and further suggest diversifying your mana slightly to take advantage of Wayfarer.

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