For the same mana you could get vendillion clique. Then for the same mana, you could get vexing sphinx, and this is a tower of improvements. Why wouldn't you just run vexing sphinx?
Dropped my local wednesday tournament today (wanted to spec my cousin who's getting into the game, and wasn't that bent on playing against the Reanimator guys ;)) after going 2-0, beating Belcher (2-1) and Natural Order-Bant (2-0).
Game one versus Belcher, I had the force for his tun one belcher activation, but my clock was too slow to keep him from trying to go off a second time on his 7th turn - this time for real. Postboard was ugly for him though - I just love how much hate UW Tempo's sideboard can get online :)
Can you explain this logic?Originally Posted by pi4meterftw
Sure. At 1W, mindcensor would be a pretty great card. A 2/1 flying flash for 1W probably just needs a hatebear ability, and it cockblocks fetchlands... not just storm. But for 3 mana, we now have a new set of creatures to take into account. At 3 mana, mindcensor is overcosted by nearly 1.
All the cards in legacy/vintage except the most broken ones would be absolutely worthless if they cost 1 more. To give examples in this particular case, it's worse than vendillion clique because vendillion clique is blue (Which is better than white since it's FOW pitchable), it flies, and has flash. Vendillion clique has +1/+0, and a different disruption ability. So if I argue that vendillion clique's disruption is at least as good, then I'll be done. (Since at one copy, "legendary" doesn't matter.) I actually think the two have similar disruptive capabilities, but at the very least clique stops ANT better, and it doesn't get owned by your opponent cracking his only 2 fetchlands in hand before you even get aven mindcensor down. Also, when you catch your opponent, he still has a 4 card shot at pulling some value out of his search spell/activation.
I think it's pretty self evident that sphinx is better than clique, with a whole +1/+3, and the filter ability to stop the mana floods so many people have complained about in the past.
I think I'm going to try 2 trade routes just for fun. Should work pretty well with wayfarer - both for returning a land so I can wayfarer and discarding extra lands to get another draw. Being blue doesn't hurt either.
I've been considering a sword of fire and ice in here, but I'm not sure if its good enough, anyone have thoughts on it? I mean most of the time it would be fetched from mystic and put in for 1W instead of 3, but I feel like it isn't flexible enough for the deck.
The problem I have with Sphinx is that it is not a permanent threat. My Avengers oftenly get bolted on sight and I'm left with puny 1/1's and Jotun "I'm almost a burn spell" Grunt and I just can't end the game. Sure, Clique is not the most durable of threats but you can count on it swinging for every turn and not worry about it going farming taking away 1 or 2 cards with it.
Then you're going to say, "But when it dies it draws into threats.". Well, does it? Sometimes, but not always. Especially when playing against white decks and you can't afford to discard too many cards to it.
Sometimes I feel that this deck lacks more efficient beaters, it relies heavily on having Avenger and/or Jitte on the table and sticking there for a large amount of turns.
[Flame suit ON]
Have you tested Student of Warfare? Looks like a fine beater that could profit from tempo gained. It's farily decent against zoo and Merfolk. The problem I see is that it looks like a stricly late game card unless your plan is to beatdown. You already lose a lot of time with Wayfarer tricks to level up this guy in the early game and run into a Fire (ouch!).
[Flame suit OFF]
I think both Student of Warfare(first strike) and Coralhelm Commander(flying, pitch to FoW) look promising. Another option is the old serendib effret with its 4 toughnes.
I don't know why everybody is so paranoid about the "2-4 for 1" when sphinx gets swordsed. You wouldn't discard them if they were good cards. You probably wouldn't even play sphinx, but rather your other good stuff, if your hand was that full of goodies. I know it sucks to be like: damn 1:4'd. But if you think about it for 5 seconds, sphinx can't really screw you out of more than a few extra lands and vials or whatever, if you play it correctly.
When playing this deck, it's common that I think: wow I wish I could even discard 3 cards to draw a card.
Trade routes does seem like a fun card. It's not good, though, because it pumps goyf when it dies, costs a lot of mana to use, etc.
SOFI is similarly a bad choice. Even SOLS is not good enough. The thing about equipment is you only want 1, so you can just imagine they're all legendary, and even legendary with respect to each other. Then you'll realize the only way we can run other equipment besides jitte is if there's something with a pretty specific use that is better than jitte in certain situations. (Since nothing is strictly better than jitte or even close.)
Dump beaters aren't really sexy.
Spellstutter Sprite in the Sphinx slot is! I tested it quite a bit and it is really good, even more since my meta is lots of ANT, Reanimator and Dreadstill.
Yeah there are definitely metas where you wouldn't run sphinx, and you'd rather run SSS.
But those are pretty rare metas. It'd have to be like predominantly combo or something, and at that combo that would be hurt by SSS.
So, Sphinx is either marginally good when you have a hand full of useless crap, or you let him sit blank in your hand because you have better things to do. I fail to see how you wouldn't just run something that doesn't require you to be on your back foot in order to not suck.
Did you just openly admit to frequently wishing for card disadvantage? Or are you saying that for every one relevant card you see there are 3 which are useless?
Last edited by Pinder; 04-22-2010 at 08:54 PM.
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Brainstorm + fetch much?
The 4/4 status is just great, but sometimes I just wished I had a big unconditional finisher. Playing a Jötun Grunt just to deal 8 damage and remove irrevelant cards is so bad... playing Sphinx to "Discard a card, draw 2 at the beggining of your next upkeep. Deal 4 damage to target opponent" is, oftenly, just as bad.
But I must admit, sometimes the Sphinx works like a charm. It stops aggro, is a flying a beater and when you get to discard 2 cards and draw 3 cards it's just awesome.
SSS != Spellstutter sprite
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He seems bad, but when you actually think of concrete situations, he always ducks his drawback, and then the clock he provides is quite monstrous. I mean, for example:
You either have some dead cards (possibly due to using a Fathom Seer or two), in which case you're basically getting a 4/4 flyer for 1UU who will also draw you some cards if the game lasts that long (this is essential because your opponent is in topdeck mode and both players are in the situation where if he draws a few dead draws in a row, he loses).
Or you don't have any dead cards, in which case you barfed your hand onto the table and Sphinx's clock (even if he only gets two swings) is really dangerous.
Like most every card in UW Tempo, it's hard to break the card down into a single role or niche that it fits.
It's not a good clock by itself. It's not good draw material. It's a pretty overcosted wall if you're just using it to block, and it has a drawback. Thankfully, the game doesn't play out in isolation like that and the flexibility that it provides is much more important than any individual element.
I know Jeff's pretty convinced by it, but even after playtesting maybe 20-30 games, I'm still on the fence. I'm pretty convinced that it's better than the other options I've seriously considered, but it doesn't seem much better -- only really improving the Zoo and Reanimator matchups. Still, it doesn't seem to make the deck worse in any particular matchups other than like, Dragon Stompy.
I find myself fairly Vial-starved, though Jeff is a much better player than I am and he's been telling me for running up on three years straight that I'm overplaying Vial.
It's not that sphinx is marginally good when I have a hand of dead. Sphinx is like the second best card in the deck when that happens, second only to brainstorm. I would definitely run something that maximizes the worst situation because the worst situation is where you tend to lose, and hence the situation I want to improve, since improving winning situations is something this deck already does automatically. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your first criticism, because it seems almost obvious to me why one would want to improve situations where we're on our back foot.
I don't frequently wish I could discard 3 cards to draw a card, but say you have 4 lands in play, as does your opponent, and you have daze, land, vial. For some reason, you can legally discard 3 cards to draw a random card. Are you going to say: No, that'd be -2.
Or yes, that'd be almost as good as +1? (No brainstorm in hand.)
Of course this can't happen too often, because if it did, we'd change our deck construction. But it's impossible to avoid flooding, if you want to avoid mana screwing, in any deck playing for the long game.
it has recently come to my attention that my meta now inclued reanimator, in fact it has a pretty wide spread of the most popular decks, is the side in post 900 the one I should run? I'm iffy on not having BFT in the side because I know there is someone who runs vial goblins(with black and sometimes green as well).
I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet but to draw with Vexing Sphinx it has to go into the graveyard. STP, PTE and any bounce and you lose your cards. I suppose there is mom, but it seems risky to me.
I'm a pretty inexperienced player, I am having trouble working out what the correct play is here - can someone help me out?
I'm on the play against an unknown opponent with a hand of:
Wasteland
Flooded Strand
Tundra
Serra Avenger
Stoneforge Mystic
Force of Will
Brainstorm
Should I be just starting off Strand fetching Tundra and saving the Brainstorm for the Force? Or should I be trying to maximize the Brainstorm effect with either the fetch or the SFM shuffle? (I have no idea if these are even the right questions to ask, tbh.)
Thanks in advance.
Personally, I would play the Flooded Strand first, and – as you said – keep the Brainstorm for the FoW, and (again personally) next turn I would Wasteland whatever land they played (a very good probability it would be a non-basic), and then I would play the Tundra and go from there. I would not pop the Flooded Strand until needed and I would also not pop it if I thought there was a likelihood of seeing a Stifle. I wouldn't just fetch for no reason, but that doesn't mean you can't play a fetch and let it stay there. I would be worried of a first turn Tundra being Wastelanded. I can't remember who said it, but I think it's quite true that the first few turns are a fight for resources, and by playing your Tundra, you are opening yourself up to being at a disadvantage. That's how I'd play it anyway. I'm sure others have different opinions, which I'm also interested in hearing.
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