[Deck] Pyromancer Ascension

[Illissius]

After observing that it doesn't actually have very much to do with pyromancy, this card looks breakable.

To illustrate:

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Mystical Tutor

4 Force of Will

4 Pyromancer Ascension
4 Intuition
4 Regrowth

1 Turnabout
1 Krosan Grip
1 Firespout

8-12 more support cards -- preferably in the form of cheap instants and/or sorceries

17-21 lands


How this works

Pyromancer Ascension can be 'activated' in multiple ways:

- Sometimes, you will draw multiples of things naturally.
- Once you have a multiple, Regrowth does it again.
- Mystical to find a multiple.
- If you have, say, a Ponder in hand, Intuition for three more Ponders, then cast the Ponder you had and the Ponder you got. That's two counters.
- Regrowth for Regrowth for Regrowth.
- Mystical for Mystical for Mystical.
- Obviously you can perform all kinds of other trickery with the above cards, particularly Intuition, depending on the game state, to achieve two counters.


To find the Ascension in the first place, you can use cantrips and Intuition.


Once you have an active Ascension, every spell you cast doubles up, so you can use cantrips to rip through your library at a frightening clip. Once you have two Regrowths, you can cast Regrowth targetting the other Regrowth and spell of choice, and repeat, to cast things an unlimited amount of times. With Turnabout (remember, it gets doubled), this gives you unlimited mana. At that point, kill your opponent with whatever you want, say a Lightning Bolt.


The 8-12 remaining spells should be some combination of more cantrips and search, disruption and protection, removal, and/or acceleration.

In particular, these appear to be the relevant candidates (things requiring further splashes separated out).

Cantrips and search
Sleight of Hand
Serum Vision
Portent
Opt
-
Lim-Dul's Vault

Disruption and protection
Spell Pierce
Daze
Spell Snare
-
Duress
Thoughtseize

Removal
Lightning Bolt
Fire // Ice
One would think that there exists some kind of bounce which doesn't suck, but I can't actually think of any.
-
Tribal Flames
Swords to Plowshares
Innocent Blood
Diabolic Edict
Terminate
Maelstrom Pulse
Vindicate

Acceleration
Search for Tomorrow
Mox Diamond
Chrome Mox
Er, anything else?


There's two specific threats the deck has to deal with: Qasali Pridemage and Krosan Grip. Fortunately, it only has to deal with the latter post-board. Against Pridemage, some form of removal in the maindeck is going to be advisable -- maybe the lone Firespout could actually be enough, but I'm not at all sure. (You could also have a Massacre in the board if you splash black -- this helps against various 2/2 white creatures including Pridemage, and thankfully you don't care that much about Teeg.) Against Krosan Grip, I don't know -- some combination of Duress/Thoughtseize and maybe Extirpate? Cranial Extraction or Lobotomy? Does anyone have better ideas?

I'm not sure how to fill out the maindeck (or, obviously, I would have). I'd really like to use Spell Pierce, because it's great against all the disruption from other decks we need to deal with (Countertop, Force, discard, etc.), and also helps against opposing combo decks. However, it does nothing against Krosan Grip. Duress (or Thoughtseize) would help against Grip, but would also require splashing black as a fourth color. Against aggro, there's two possible approaches -- can we make the deck fast enough via acceleration to race them, or should we add more removal? The limiting factor here, in addition to just getting the combo set up, is that Turnabout costs four mana. I have a feeling the combo-control approach is correct, but I can't know for sure without testing. In that case, Lightning Bolt kills nearly all the common early threats with the exception of Tarmogoyf (but including Pridemage) and can also finish off the combo; Swords to Plowshares and Terminate also kill Goyf, but again require splashes (I don't think Edict effects are advisable because you're not guaranteed to hit a Pridemage). One nice thing against aggro is how Mystical and Regrowth give you a virtual nine copies of Firespout. Against combo, you basically have to play combo-control; the question is whether you can do it effectively, but it seems possible that you could.

For the sideboard, Moment's Peace and Ancient Grudge look pretty awesome against certain decks (flashback interacts very well with Intuition, Ascension, and Mystical), if those decks are prevalent enough. (It's too bad there isn't any flashback card good enough for the maindeck; Lava Dart is probably closest). You could also add some scary creatures like Tarmogoyf, Vendilion Clique, or Dark Confidant to take advantage of people presumably boarding out their removal. And you definitely need something against Grip. Beyond that, the rest is probably metagame dependent.


So. That's more than I expected to write about a random idea. Thoughts?

[edgewalker]

I understand how the deck works, but how are you winning in 1.5? I know most of the standard versions use timewarp and banefire as their win conditions. Is the plan to just copy a ton of bolts?

[Vacrix]

Sick concept. Intuition is a tight way to pull this off.


Magma Jet sounds good. Scry 2 is good, burns pridemage.

Run more burn for sure. I would run this list:

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Accumulated Knowledge

4 Pyromancer Ascension
4 Intuition
4 Regrowth

1 Krosan Grip
1 Firespout
1 Rein's of Power

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Magma Jet
4 Chain Lightning

17 land

Something needs to get cut (probably rein's). 18/19 land is looking better. With your cantrips you should be able to find more land. I like regrowth in this a lot. You can regrowth Firespout which is obviously sick. I would definitely put some volcanic fallout action in the board vs. control. AK is just sick with intuition, and even better when you have regrowth. Also, consider this strat. If you have Rein's of Power in hand, you can just burn your opponent down to a health at which you can kill him with his own creatures, then steal all his creatures for the win. Since you don't run any creatures, I think it could be pretty legit. It can be recurred too via regrowth if you have the mana to do so. Also, consider that 17-21 land is going to be hard to play with if you have 3 colors, so I'm thinking 19/20 land now actually. Seriously though, AK should go in for sure. It digs you out of a hole when you are behind.

[edgewalker]

Also, the big thing that the Type II decks have over this, is that they have ways to play more than one land per turn (Harrow, Rampant Growth, KHE) so they can play more spells per turn as well as their business spells earlier, timewarp or naya charm + recurred spells.

[Illissius]

I understand how the deck works, but how are you winning in 1.5? I know most of the standard versions use timewarp and banefire as their win conditions. Is the plan to just copy a ton of bolts?

Oh, there's prior art in other formats? I didn't know that, though I guess it's not surprising.

I had Time Warp at first, but then I noticed Turnabout serves the same function while being both a mana cheaper and more generally useful. So you get infinite mana with Regrowths and Turnabout, and then you turn that into infinite damage with a Lightning Bolt or Fire // Ice or whatever.

Vacrix: Thanks. You conspicuously left Turnabout out of your build. I think it's important :). I have the feeling that Accumulated Knowledge (also Aether Burst, fwiw) would be too slow, but I guess it at least gives you more resilience when you don't have an Ascension in play.

The annoying thing when you're trying to cut things for more lands is that you can't just randomly cut spells from 4 of to 3 of without negative consequences, like you can with other decks.

Edit: And yeah, some sort of acceleration really would be nice, but most of the options seem too slow for Legacy. Search for Tomorrow is the best I can think of. Mox Diamond might work if you can find room. Chrome Mox can mostly be swapped one-for-one with lands, but the card disadvantage looks rather painful here.

[edgewalker]

Oh, there's prior art in other formats? I didn't know that, though I guess it's not surprising.

I had Time Warp at first, but then I noticed Turnabout is both a mana cheaper and serves the same function. So you get infinite mana with Regrowths and Turnabout, and then turn that into infinite damage with a Lightning Bolt or Fire // Ice or something.

Yea, Nick "whatever his last name is" on SCG has been playing it. When I saw it, I tried to port it to legacy, but gave up, though turnabout seems like a way to get around some of the problems. The big issue is getting ascension into play ASAP without blowing half your cantrips trying to find it.

EDIT: I almost wanna play it like the pyromancer swath decks from a few extended seasons back.

[Illissius]

Here's Nick's list, for reference.

Looks interesting. I forgot about Naya Charm existing, but I'm pretty sure Regrowth is a better idea here. Interesting how he hybridizes it with Turbofog -- and fortuitous how Turnabout can also be a Fog, and so can Moment's Peace. The Turbofog direction doesn't seem fast enough or good enough for legacy, but who knows?

[Zinch]

An option you must consider is splashing black. Entomb puts any card you want in the graveyard (for example one you have in hand) and with regrowth can find the ascension if you can't find it with the cantrips (or if you wanna save the cantrips to put counters in the ascension). But maybe this falls intp the "danger of cool things" category...

[Illissius]

Black is tempting, but mainly for Duress/Thoughtseize, various removal options, and Cranial/Lobotomy/Extirpate in the side against Grip. Entomb doesn't look like it "does enough".

Speaking of which, I'm still interested in people's thoughts about the best way to combat Grip.

[Nydaeli]

Infernal Tutor would be really good here, Hellbent or not.

[Vacrix]

Vacrix: Thanks. You conspicuously left Turnabout out of your build. I think it's important :). I have the feeling that Accumulated Knowledge (also Aether Burst, fwiw) would be too slow, but I guess it at least gives you more resilience when you don't have an Ascension in play.

The annoying thing when you're trying to cut things for more lands is that you can't just randomly cut spells from 4 of to 3 of without negative consequences, like you can with other decks.

Wow, yea I didn't see why you were running turnabout. Now I understand. I think AK is just tight in this. Against aggro, it keeps the burn spells rolling until you can get the upper hand. Actually, considering bursts...Life Burst is just ridiculous with regrowth and intuition. Its practically a game plan against aggro. Especially when you can intuition, putting 3 in the grave then play one gaining 16 life. Imagine doing that again via Regrowth or Mystical Tutor for Regrowth. It might not be necessary (against aggro) come to think of it if you could just play mystical tutor for Firespout and then recur Firespout with Regrowth, but multiple life bursts puts you out of range of ToA and it kills aggro-control's clock.

An option you must consider is splashing black. Entomb puts any card you want in the graveyard (for example one you have in hand) and with regrowth can find the ascension if you can't find it with the cantrips (or if you wanna save the cantrips to put counters in the ascension). But maybe this falls intp the "danger of cool things" category...

If you run entomb, you can always throw in Iona, especially with mystical tutor for entomb or reanimate, etc. You could make a pseudo-reanimator board. Also, black seems even more tempting because of a possible post board against control: raven's crime + life from the loam off intuition.

[darkdeal]

Does Pyromancer Ascension get around Counterbalance or will the copy get countered too?

I think this needs to be more of a controlling deck. This seems worse than AnT as a combo deck. I would suggest adding more counters.

[Mark Sun]

Does Pyromancer Ascension get around Counterbalance or will the copy get countered too?

I think this needs to be more of a controlling deck. This seems worse than AnT as a combo deck. I would suggest adding more counters.

Counterbalance only triggers on spells that are Played.

[sunshine]

Thought I would point out that Merchant Scroll is pretty solid at helping you ascend. In the worst case You can Scroll -> Scroll -> Scroll->business. Most often that third scroll would be a Brainstorm/Ponder though. It's hella expensive to pull off but so is practically every route to ascending. Scroll is a reasonable tutor otherwise.

[Illissius]

Merchant Scrolls don't chain.

Infernal Tutor looks more cute than good here. Being hellbent is a bad place to be, and while it does find you a copy of something, it's not as flexible as the other options we have. As always, though, feel free to prove me wrong.

Life Burst is intriguing, given that it helps against both aggro and Tendrils combo. Still, my problem with all these Kindle variants is that without acceleration, the soonest you could cast one of them following an Intuition is turn four, and both aggro and combo can/do goldfish faster than that.

I think this needs to be more of a controlling deck. This seems worse than AnT as a combo deck. I would suggest adding more counters.

Yep, we definitely need more control elements (and/or acceleration). The question is what form they should take.

[Kangaxx]

Merchant Scrolls don't chain.

Infernal Tutor looks more cute than good here. Being hellbent is a bad place to be, and while it does find you a copy of something, it's not as flexible as the other options we have. As always, though, feel free to prove me wrong.

Life Burst is intriguing, given that it helps against both aggro and Tendrils combo. Still, my problem with all these Kindle variants is that without acceleration, the soonest you could cast one of them following an Intuition is turn four, and both aggro and combo can/do goldfish faster than that.



Yep, we definitely need more control elements (and/or acceleration). The question is what form they should take.

Rite of Flames? Desperate Ritual? Then you can maybe even run Time Warp effects instead of Turnabout.

[darkdeal]

Maybe taking this in another direction? This may be a crazy thought, but what about getting rid of the blue? R/W/G maybe. Chaining Orim's Chants seems just as strong as Turnabout and is safer against AnT and countermagic. The color combo gives access to Naya Charm which is a little redundency with Regrowth and it has a couple other relevant modes. White gives Enlightened Tutor to find your Ascension, but it loses some usefulness after you get the first one. Lightning Helix seems good for the life gain in some matchups (AnT). Silence from the board for AnT? Wrath of God for Zoo, Goblins, etc.

The really hard part about it is the lack of card draw or tutors. Maybe Gamble wouldn't be so bad with the regrowth effects?

[sunshine]

Merchant Scrolls don't chain.

You just have to do it real fast .

[rufus]

When the card was spoiled, I was looking at breaking it...

Quiet Speculation -> Deep Analysis/Lava Spike stuff can be interesting.

Pyromancer Ascension works with retrace cards, so Raven's Crime, and, to a
lesser degree, Flame Jab.

There's also stuff like ideas unbound or tolarian winds.

[TygerClaw]

WIth the retrace cards would you need to have two copies in the graveyard for it to initially put the counters on the ascension?

If not they'd work great with it :)