Counter-Rebel Still

[Atimos]

Hi all!

This is my first comment in the forum but i was reading it time ago.

I was thinking to make a counter rebel list and this thread is helping me much, the addition of cataclysm is very interesting, i´ll test it. Thinking in the Gocho comment, i have searched some useful artifacts from the deck but only i find one that i think it can be useful in our deck: Thousand-Year Elixir maybe the cost 3 is too much for the deck but better test it...

[Grollub]

This is the first question in TheSource when any new cards appears for any deck, but we don't test the deck enough to know which are the worst matchups. So, it's impossible to know what machups improves Cataclysm.

It's a question you should ask youself everytime you want to try out a new card...

Cataclysm is completely counterintuitive with that Counter Rebel wants to accomplish. You only want to destroy lands if you are ahead on creatures, and you only want to destroy creatures if you're behind - in which case you don't want to lose lands. Wrath of God seems like it would fit much better, given how you force your opponent to overcommit on the battlefield or lose; plus recruiters make it easy to recover.

[Gocho]

Cataclysm cover both aspect, if you are behind in creatures OR lands, you can Cataclysm. Your recover must fastest than your opponent, you only need to keep a single land in your hand or Daze a turn before to make it even better. Many decks doesn¡'t recover well after land destruction.

If your opponent wants to keep ahead, must keep Creatures and lands in his hand, putting less pressure in the table.

[ktkenshinx]

Originally Posted by flrn
Training Grounds also reduces the cost of Knight of the Holy Nimbus' activated ability, so opponents don't have to pay 2 to destroy him. That's quite an argument against playing him.

The Training Grounds argument is just plain wrong.
1. Training Grounds cannot make an ability cost less than 1.
2. You do not have to make Training Grounds apply to the Knight if you don't want to. The card says "may" cost up to 2 less. If you do not believe me on either of these counts, and I admit that the second seems shady, I encourage you to read the Rise of Eldrazi FAQ found here: http://tinyurl.com/roefaq

"* You may choose not to apply Training Ground's cost reduction effect. You may also choose to apply only part of it (causing an activated ability of a creature you control to cost just {1} less to activate)."

Cataclysm seems quite strong in this deck, especially if you run Flagstones. Imagine a play where you have a Training Grounds, a Recruiter, and a Flagstones. You keep one land and your rebel/enchantment pair, and then you sacrifice the rest. End result; you can still recruit and your opponent is down on the rocks. Sure, it can get FoW'd or Dazed, but what can't? It seems a strong play against most decks, especially if you can back it up with some countermagic of your own.

-ktkenshinx-

[(nameless one)]

OMFG... how can I forget Cataclysm.

My old old Legacy CounterRebels actually used it. I have also used Artifact Lands so as my artifact count for Cataclysm. I also used Scroll Rack for that build. I cant remember the whole thing as I have abandoned that deck a long time ago (that deck was the reason why I originally made this thread LOL)

[Indykid Vago]

I've test a bit and here is my current opinion on this deck.

As a rogue deck choice it's a surprisingly strong one , the addition of Training Grounds as a replacement for Gaea's Cradle gives the deck access to Force of Will as well being blue and getting you to the needed 16 blue count for Force of Will .

Running the Mirror Entity finish is definitely feeling like the strongest way to win . So strong that I'm keaning towards running a 2nd MD Entity because of all the Path / Plow running around in MD's .

I wish there was space to run AEther Vial in here because it is a must counter for control decks ,and as Vialing out an EOT recruiter is very strong in this deck . Your opponent has only their own EOT as a window to do something before your rebel goes active . I've played Vial rebels in the past and I really like Vial in the deck but maybe Training Grounds replaces both Gaea's Cradle AND AEther Vial O_O I can't tell yet but in the few games I tested I'm starting to feel that way .

I also think that if this deck doesn't run Vial , then it should probably run a mana denial/destruction package of some sort (although I am unsure of the numbers for this . I'd assume the cards to consider would be Cataclysm, Flagstones of Trokair , Daze , Wasteland and maybe a few Rishadan Ports if there is the space . I'd also like to test Gaea's Cradle , but I am unsure if it can be supported in a 2 color fetchland manabase . Maybe something like this on the manabase .

4 Flooded Strand
5 Additional Fetchlands , 3 on color 2 off color (yeah , I know it's hard to say which is your off color )
4 Tundra
3 Basics
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port

This 22 card manabase runs Wasteland , gets you 14 off color mana and 15 on color mana . You could drop the Ports and add a 1 Hallowed Fountain + 1 more MD spell or you could run 2 Gaeas Cradle in it's place. I'm currently testing the 3 manabases .

The recruiter suite is great at 11 cards (mentioned as the same as Belcher) and I run
4 Ramosian Sargent
3 Defiant Falcon
2 Amrou Scout
1 Ramosian Lieutenant
2 Lin Sivvi , Defiant Hero

Also , Counterbalanceis HOT . I feel the CB versions are way Stronger then the Standstill builds , especially when you MD 2 Cataclysms with CB .

Lastly , my head hurts now . I'll test a bunch more (I absolutely love Rebels btw . )

[Benjammn]

The Training Grounds argument is just plain wrong.
1. Training Grounds cannot make an ability cost less than 1.
2. You do not have to make Training Grounds apply to the Knight if you don't want to. The card says "may" cost up to 2 less. If you do not believe me on either of these counts, and I admit that the second seems shady, I encourage you to read the Rise of Eldrazi FAQ found here: http://tinyurl.com/roefaq
-ktkenshinx-

Let's look at the updated text for both Knight of the Holy Nimbus and Training Grounds.

Activated abilities of creatures you control cost up to {2} less to activate. This effect can't reduce the amount of mana an ability costs to activate to less than one mana.

If Knight of the Holy Nimbus would be destroyed, regenerate it.
{2}: Knight of the Holy Nimbus can't be regenerated this turn. Only any opponent may activate this ability.

Ok, so you control both a Knight and a Training Grounds. Knights' activated ability that turns off the constant regeneration shield can only be activated by your opponent, presumably when he tries to destroy it. It normally costs 2. However, since Knight is a creature you control, it's activated abilities can cost up to 2 less but not below 1. Even though you do not control the turn-off ability, it doesn't matter, the ability only costs 1 for your opponent. You have no say whether to apply the effect or not, since you don't control the ability.

[hjalte]

EDIT, Deleted wrongness...

I was wrong, Benjamin is correct. From the rules forum:

The cost reduction is applied by the player, who is activating the ability. Even though it's your Knight and Training Grounds, your opponent gets to choose if he wants to pay {2} or {1}.

[Maveric78f]

4 wastes and 4 rishadan is the way to go with rebels. They are not much colored mana requiring and you might need a lot of mana, so that these lands can either help you go crazy with your rebels or help you to slow down the game and play tempo. As a consequence, Counterbalance does not belong to the deck. It's UU and the curve requirement is really an issue (a too low 2CC cards count). Standstill not really the card you want neither because Rebels are the creatures, vials and standstill in the same cards (but only for crappy creatures and for an expensive cost...). As for myself, I would for a very disruptive mana base, stifles to protect to complete the mana disruption, to protect from EE and Deed and a lot of mana-relying disruption (daze, spell pierce) and brainstorms.

Lands 21
4 Wastes
4 Ports
7 Fetches
4 Tundras
1 Island
1 Plains

Blues 22
4 FoW
3 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Training Ground

Whites 17
4 Ramosian Sergent
2 Defiant Falcon
2 Amrou Scout
2 Lin Sivvi , Defiant Hero
1 Children of Korlis
1 Whipcorder
1 Defiant Vanguard
2 Mirror Entity
1 Shield Dancer
1 Bound in Silence

[(nameless one)]

So we're going to drop StP? Also, having Big Game Hunters and Dunerider Outlaws never disappointed me. Are we also removing Shapesharers? I find it to be really useful in removing pesky Legendary Creatures.

So, are the 14 counters enough? I do like the mana disruption package.

[TokenMaster]

I still think Swords to Plowshares is necessary. We need to be able to slow down fast aggro decks while we're looking for Training Grounds. Dependiing on your meta, you might want to go between StP and Stifle.

[Indykid Vago]

STP is absolutely necessary IMO . Legacy is way too combat heavy .

Is there a mono white answer to Prog ?

[ktkenshinx]

STP is absolutely necessary IMO . Legacy is way too combat heavy .

Is there a mono white answer to Prog ?

I agree that Swords is critical for the deck. Zoo gives Rebels problems, between heavy removal and burn and a rather serious clock. We can deal with Goyf courtesy of Vanguard, Dancer, and Shapesharer, but all the other little dudes get a bit uppity if left unchecked. Swords prevents this.
That said, Path to Exile might be better in certain situations. Sometimes I would rather my opponent get a slight acceleration than 5+ toughness. This life gain, especially if compounded with a second Swords, can really add up over a game, even amounting to a free Time Walk on a besieged opponent. What are your thoughts on this everyone? Swords vs. Path?

As to Prog, Children of Korlis is an amazing answer. For 1 mana you can tutor him into play. For 3 (or 1) more mana, you can get him on the bottom of your deck and repeat again and again. Children stop Progenitus dead in his tracks.

-ktkenshinx-

[Kagehisa]

There are Moat, CoP : red (or black, white, blue or green), Runed Halo, Humility,Light of Day and Wrath of God (Day of Jugment) that can answer Prog.

Prog has "shroud", "prevent all damage", "cannot be blocked", "cannot be enchanted".

[Indykid Vago]

I agree that Swords is critical for the deck. Zoo gives Rebels problems, between heavy removal and burn and a rather serious clock. We can deal with Goyf courtesy of Vanguard, Dancer, and Shapesharer, but all the other little dudes get a bit uppity if left unchecked. Swords prevents this.
That said, Path to Exile might be better in certain situations. Sometimes I would rather my opponent get a slight acceleration than 5+ toughness. This life gain, especially if compounded with a second Swords, can really add up over a game, even amounting to a free Time Walk on a besieged opponent. What are your thoughts on this everyone? Swords vs. Path?

If you are running Mirror Entity then I wouldn't worry too much about their life total . You don't really care what they are at until you start swinging with a 6/6 army .

As to Prog, Children of Korlis is an amazing answer. For 1 mana you can tutor him into play. For 3 (or 1) more mana, you can get him on the bottom of your deck and repeat again and again. Children stop Progenitus dead in his tracks.
-ktkenshinx-

For that to work you either have to run multiple Children of Korlis , have Sivvi + 4 mana up , or Sivvi + Training Ground + 1 mana . I've still lost to Prog because none of these happened .

There are Moat, CoP : red (or black, white, blue or green), Runed Halo, Humility,Light of Day and Wrath of God (Day of Jugment) that can answer Prog.

Prog has "shroud", "prevent all damage", "cannot be blocked", "cannot be enchanted".

Of those options the only one I can see running (SB) are Runed Halo or a COP , probably vs Red . Thanks :)

There is some hilarity to using Tariff , which will work vs reanimator strategies as well besides Iona . Tarrif sucks tho .

[Grollub]

Juxtapose is 100% hilarious against reanimator and progenitus.

[Nessaja]

I think this is a deck that should be using chrome mox because it can convert mana into card advantage. The faster you start it, the better you're off.

[(nameless one)]

I have been experimenting with this list with okay success:

6x Plains
5x Island
4x Flooded Strand
2x Marsh Flats
1x Scalding Tarn
1x Kor Haven

4x Ramosian Sergeant
2x Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero
1x Children of Korlis
1x Amrou Scout
1x Defiant Falcon
1x Ramosian Lieutenant
1x Whipcorder
1x Dunerider Outlaw
1x Mirror Entity
1x Defiant Vanguard
1x Big Game Hunter
1x Bound in Silence

4x Training Grounds

4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Force of Will
4x Spell Pierce
3x Daze

3x Brainstorm
3x See Beyond

So far, I have stopped running both Counter-Top and Standstill. It felt like both are not important to the deck. I actually added See Beyond. Even though its a sorcery, it helps dig through needed cards, as well as shuffling back unneeded or dead cards.

As you can see, I am not running any Tundra. The reason for that is because I do not own any. And even yet, I have not been disappointed over it. I believe the deck would be better if it had Tundras.

I am not 100% with the deck's permission suite. I believe that it can be better but so far, I haven't had any problem with it. I maximized Spell Pierce over Daze because Daze's alternate cost is too great of a drawback for the mana development.

In contrary, I am running 19 lands. I haven't had any problems with it so far. I am not saying the manabase is perfect, I am pretty sure it needs more improvement (such as Tundras).

Try testing it with me and see what you guys think.

I am still contemplating for a sideboard.

To Gocho:

Hows the testing of U/W Rebels there?

[Morim_Brightsmoke]

Has this deck ever considered playing the Life Combo, with condemn as the main removal spell? There are two rebels that can make the arbitrarily large toughness, so you are really just giving up 2 slots and conceding make the (some of the) removal spells condemn to gain arbitrarily large amounts of life. Thoughts?

[ktkenshinx]

I have been experimenting with this list with okay success:

I am using basically the same list, with a few changes noted and explained below:
-1 Big Game Hunter
+1 Bound in Silence
In my testing, BGH does nothing that Bound cannot also handle. But Bound circumvents Shroud. That's big against Reanimator, and that's already a scary matchup.

-1 Dunerider Outlaw
+1 Shapesharer
Dunerider has some neat applications, especially against Zoo. Shapesharer has a ton of applications against Zoo AND a ton of others. He blocks Goyfs, he provdes additional recruiters, he surprises opponents, and he's overall a badass. His legend assassination abilities are particularly amazing. He just gives you a level of versatility that Outlaw does not contribute.

-2 See Beyond
+1 Brainstorm
+1 Daze
The instant speed and 1 CMC status of brainstorm really give it the nod against See Beyond in this case. A SB on turn 2 is strong, especially if you have nothing else to do with your turn. But an SB on turn 3 or 4 is risky. It limits your recruiting abilities and might leave you unable to cast a spell that you drew with SB. EOT Brainstorm does not have this weakness.
As to Daze, free counterspells are just so good in this deck. I like to leave all my mana open to counter and recruit, and having a Daze can give me that many more options on an opponent's turn.

So far, I have stopped running both Counter-Top and Standstill. It felt like both are not important to the deck.

Agreed. The 12 counterspells are more than enough, and the CounterTop engine takes up both space and mana. Standstill is win more in most cases, and is only really useful with the 12 counterspells, 4 of which would probably be cut to accomodate its inclusion.

I am not 100% with the deck's permission suite. I believe that it can be better but so far, I haven't had any problem with it. I maximized Spell Pierce over Daze because Daze's alternate cost is too great of a drawback for the mana development.

Mana development is important, but options are more important. having 4 Daze instead of 3 marginally increases those options without a serious, or even marginal, hit to your mana development. You do need EOT mana for your rebels, and if you don't have a Training Grounds, that can get expensive. But that seems an even greater reason to run free countermagic. It lets you use a 3+ mana recruit and not worry about losing your rebels.

Nessaja: Chrome Mox is an interesting idea. For instance, having 2 recruiters in your hand is far less helpful than having 2 mana in play. It also lets you drop a turn 1 Grounds AND recruitier, which is a really strong opening. I am not sure where the cards would go, however; the deck is tight on slots as is.

-ktkenshinx-