Why does it seem to be gospel that there can be only one bound in silence? What if you draw one? what if you need two?
I don't think it's a gospel. But since Reanimator is almost non existent do you really need this card at all? For cc3 there are far better cards like Big Game Hunter, Defiant Vanguard and sometimes Mirror Entity. Even Whipcorder with cc2 seems better to me in most cases becaurse it's a creature.
I think one Bound is ok but more seems too much to me. Depends on your metagame though.
Another thing to mention is that Bound actually boots Tarmogoyf by two. It's a Tribal Enchantment :/
nice decklist & idea, hanni! I feel the same that this deck has to follow the combo direction and forget about CBTop/Standstill. When I played the deck on the tournament nobody really expected a Mirror Entity kill out of nowhere and the ridiculous CA by recruiters.
I'm definitely gonna test Hanni's list. I would play 2 Mirror Entity if 1 gets Pathed/Sworded and play 3 Gaea's Cradle instead of 4 because with a cradle in hand and no creatures out yet, cradle is pretty much useless, especially if your tundra gets wasted you are basically lost but I see that you always want to have Cradle...
I also agree with preddi that Whipcorder is situational and a bit slow. I would cut 3 and put in a Dunerider Outlaw/Big Game Hunter/Knight of the Holy Nimbus Package as they also support the " Mirror Entity Attack" (BGH not that much).
I'm thinking about playing Rebels on Jan 8th again and make a little report.
I actually like Hanni's list although I would add 3-4 toolbox Rebels for certain scenario (such as Big Game Hunter). Both Big Game Hunter and Dunerider Outlaw are excellent Goyf/Vengevine Blockers. Defiant Vanguard could be a good surprise blocker as well.
The only thing I didn't like about Hanni's list is Daze. What I learned from CounterTop Foundry is that a mana-hungry deck cannot really utilize Daze as well as other Tempo decks like Merfolk. I'll pick the deck back again and test Counterspell or Spell Snare on that spot instead.
Hopefully there will be Rebels in MBS (There is a legendary creature that has Rebel on its name according to MTGS's number crunch). This deck could really use additional lords.
Before I answer the replies, just keep in mind that I haven't done any significant playtesting with it or Rebels, lately. So some of the numbers may be a little off atm.
I do feel that the high land count is necessary, because this is a mana hungry deck. I run 22 lands, but 4 of those lands are Gaea's Cradle, so I'm really only running 18 colored sources. The Gaea's Cradle's should be looked at as an acceleration piece, like a Dark Ritual in Deadguy Ale or a Lotus Petal in Sneak&Show. The difference here is that it requires a land drop and is reusable, but it's Legendary so multiples are dead in hand until you Brainstorm.I noticed your high landcount. Do you feel it is necessary?
I tested Whipcorder and it felt too slow due to it's summoning sickness. How are your experiences with this card?
I really like the high recruit count. But cutting swords and the "toolbox" rebels is indeed changing the whole deck into a fast combo kill which could be better than the old "defend and kill" mechanic but needs some testing.
I think that the first turns (about three) are the deciding ones. If you manage to get a recruit online without taking too much damage, you are probably fine. This is why i think FoW and Daze are too important for this deck even with this low blue count.
How are the Gaea's Cradle doing? I think they are great if you get more than one creature into play. I'm currently running Ancient Tomb for a more possible second two search.
I'm actually not sure if I should go up another land or two. Making consistent Island + Plains drops early is key to operating the deck properly.
As far as Whipcorder goes, I think you're right. After more testing, I've never needed to grab the full 4, and the most I've ever needed to grab was 2. I think cutting the Whipcorder's down to 2 should be plenty. The deck only needs to stall for a short period of time, and it has 19 life points it can lose before then. The deck also doesn't need to get a swarm of Rebel's into play; just enough Rebels and mana sources to swing with Mirror Entity for lethal.
I don't think the deck needs a slow defend and kill toolbox or approach. The combo is rather resilient (as Rebel's have always been), and the new tools allow this deck to assemble the combo pretty quickly. Why beat around the bush interacting with Tarmogoyf's when you can just ignore that 3/4 that's attacking you and then swing with 5 5/5 Rebel's in a turn or two?
The blue spell count in my deck is actually at 20. I'm always aware of my blue spell count when building decks with Force of Will, it's like second nature to me at this point.
Gaea's Cradle is there to explode the deck. I agree that initially it is slow, only tapping for a single source for the first Rebel. However, Gaea's Cradle quickly gets out of hand. Once Cradle starts making more mana than a Black Lotus, you know its time to swing with a bunch of large men.
I understand your point of view on Ancient Tomb though, since it does speed up the initial recruiting process. I'll keep this in mind when I playtest the deck some more, and compare Cradle's in gameplay to Ancient Tomb to see which one would work better in actual gameplay.
What does the deck really need Bound in Silence for? The only thing I can think of is stopping Emrakul, which it does a great job of... but what other problematic creatures do you need to stop? The biggest threats come from creatures that don't need to attack or block, like Knight of the Reliquary (tutoring up Tabernacle), Seasinger (stealing Mirror Entity), Peacekeeper, etc. Bound of Silence does nothing to those targets.Why does it seem to be gospel that there can be only one bound in silence? What if you draw one? what if you need two?
Anything that Bound and Silence can stop, Whipcorder can also stop. Difference being that Whipcorder is a body on the board, which advances your gamplan of swinging for lethal with Mirror Entity.
I initially playtested with 2 Mirror Entity, but decided to cut to 1 to playtesting purposes to see if I could get away with it. What I do is wait to fetch Mirror Entity until the EOT before I'm going to go off. Going back up to 2 sounds fine.I'm definitely gonna test Hanni's list. I would play 2 Mirror Entity if 1 gets Pathed/Sworded and play 3 Gaea's Cradle instead of 4 because with a cradle in hand and no creatures out yet, cradle is pretty much useless, especially if your tundra gets wasted you are basically lost but I see that you always want to have Cradle...
Going down to 3 Gaea's Cradle may also be a good idea. Like I said, I haven't done enough playtesting to perfect the numbers. Gaea's Cradle is a card you want to see, though, and usually in multiples (because of enemy Wastelands).
I agree that 4 Whipcorder was overkill in testing, and I'm not sure what the correct number would be. I'm going to cut down to 2 in testing, and then go from there. Honestly, the Whipcorder spots in my list are flex spots anyway.I also agree with preddi that Whipcorder is situational and a bit slow. I would cut 3 and put in a Dunerider Outlaw/Big Game Hunter/Knight of the Holy Nimbus Package as they also support the " Mirror Entity Attack" (BGH not that much).
Well, the Whipcorders in my list are flex spots, so that would be the place to cut from for toolbox guys. Big Game Hunter does sound pretty good, but I don't really think Dunerider or Defiant Vanguard are really needed, to be honest.I actually like Hanni's list although I would add 3-4 toolbox Rebels for certain scenario (such as Big Game Hunter). Both Big Game Hunter and Dunerider Outlaw are excellent Goyf/Vengevine Blockers. Defiant Vanguard could be a good surprise blocker as well.
The only thing I didn't like about Hanni's list is Daze. What I learned from CounterTop Foundry is that a mana-hungry deck cannot really utilize Daze as well as other Tempo decks like Merfolk. I'll pick the deck back again and test Counterspell or Spell Snare on that spot instead.
Hopefully there will be Rebels in MBS (There is a legendary creature that has Rebel on its name according to MTGS's number crunch). This deck could really use additional lords.
Daze is one of those necessary evils. I know that it slows the decks mana development down some, but it's important to resolve an early recruiter, and Daze helps to do that. I would not cut Daze from my decklist.
Spell Snare does not counter Swords to Plowshares, Lightning Bolt, or Force of Will. Those are the cards that the deck wants to be countering. I'd sooner maindeck Turn Aside than Spell Snare.
I also don't think Rebel's needs Lords. Rebel's is a different type of Tribal deck than Merfolk. Merfolk grinds it out with Lords, that's just how that Tribe works. Rebel's grinds it out with tutoring that puts the guys directly into play; not only does this generate card advantage, it's enables the deck to become a combo deck. Why spend 4 mana tutoring up a Lord when you can spend 4 mana tutoring up a Mirror Entity?
What this deck needs is another 1cc recruiter Rebel...
Rebel Lackey
W
Creature - Rebel
3, T: Search your library for a Rebel card with converted mana cost 2 or less and put that card into play. Then shuffle your library.
0/2
EDIT: After everyone's feedback so far, this is the new revamped list I'm going to be testing on MWS for the next few hours:
Rebels!
// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [A] Tundra
3 [UNH] Island
3 [UNH] Plains
3 [US] Gaea's Cradle
1 [EX] City of Traitors
// Creatures
4 [MM] Ramosian Sergeant
4 [NE] Defiant Falcon
4 [MM] Ramosian Lieutenant
1 [NE] Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero
1 [LRW] Mirror Entity
1 [ON] Whipcorder
1 [PLC] Big Game Hunter
// Spells
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
3 [SOM] Turn Aside
3 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [ROE] Training Grounds
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [US] Disenchant
SB: 4 [8E] Sacred Ground
SB: 2 [FUT] Bound in Silence
SB: 1 [TSP] Children of Korlis
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle
I'm looking for a way to add 3 Swords to plowshares to the deck. After a bit of testing this newer Version i just feel naked without them. I think they increase the chance of winning against decks like Zoo, Merfolk and Goblins which are filling my meta recently (and probably even more after the survival ban).
After some games i really like Gaea's Cradle. It feels convincing and if you have 2+ rebels on the board you always want to draw one copy. After checking the prices on ebay i just have to say that i hate Ursa's Saga cards in general :p.
I agree that Dunerider Outlaw is not necessary. Knight of the holy nimbus looks much better to me. I love the idea of blocking a Silvergill Adept or some goblin dudes with it. If you manage to kill a creature with it the opponent will be more careful with his attacks which could give you one or more turns to go off.
Rebels allow you to play cards you like as a 1of. If you like Dunerider than just add one copy. The main reason i play this deck is because i really like the playstyle and some of the creatures.
I wouldn't say this deck needs no lords. In fact it could use lords, but maybe not just a simple +1/+1 effect. It could use some acceleration. I'm looking forward to MBS and hope there is something we could use. A solid blocker with search effect sould be nice too.
1 Whipcorder and 1 Big Game Hunter sounds pretty nice. You can cut them and fully commit to the fast Mirror Entity kill, but i always like the idea of beeing more flexible. Requires some testing though.
About testing: How did your MWS testing go Hanni?
So I've tested Hanni's new list on MWS a bit and I realized that Turn Aside is not that good MB, I would move it to SB immediately.
1 Dunerider Outlaw would be also a very good Sideboard card as you can block goyfs & KotRs until your Mirror Entity Kill, I would see it more as a defender in G2/G3.
I would even add 1 more land because opening hands can be really weird with the 3 Gaea's Cradle. I had to mulligan because of that, dunno maybe I'm just unlucky.
When do you actually need Sacred Ground? You can play around LD easily by fetching Plains/Island and playing Cradle only in the killing/recruiting mode...but if dedicated LD decks is a problem in your meta then of course it's a useful card.
Turned out that Whipcorder and BGH were fine as 1-ofs, not really anything else needed. I just exchanged a 2CC Recruiter for 1 Defiant Vanguard as we already got so many 2CCs. Maybe I'll add 2nd Mirror Entity in that slot again.
It seems like Zoo and Rock are our worst matchups, Merfolk too but haven't tested against it recently.
What to bring in against them? (next to Children Of Korlis and/or Dunerider Outlaw)
What could I play main for Turn Asides? 2nd Entity,4th Daze and random Spell Snare or something like that?
Hello again,
this is my list, but i'm still not 100% happy with it.
//Creatures
2 Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero
4 Ramosian Sergeant
4 Ramosian Lieutenant
2 Defiant Falcon
1 Amrou Scout
1 Big Game Hunter
2 Mirror Entity
1 Children of Korlis
//Spells
4 Spell Pierce
2 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Training Grounds
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
//Lands
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
5 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
3 Gaea's Cradle
I'd like to raise the Swords count and maybe add one Knight of the holy nimbus/Whipcorder, but there's no room for it so far. I'm not sure about Lin Sivvi. I think she's great without TG. Maybe cut it to one.
I don't think Turn aside is good enough because it's a bit situational. I think Mana Leak is okay but maybe too slow. Other Options are Divert and Reverent Mantra. Mantra looks very good but is not blue and a highter blue count makes sense if Force of Will is going to stay.
Alexeezay if you play Rebels on saturday a little report would be awesome. I wanted to play it too this week but i don't have the Cradles yet so i'm not sure if i should play it without them.
Dispel, Divert, Force Spike, or Disrupt all seem much more defensible MD cards than Turn Aside.
Turn Aside is just too narrow it's only good against removal. The above cards at least have 1 additional practical application. Dispel (fights counter wars, Stifle, Ad Nauseum) if there's alot of Tempo decks and combo in one's meta this seems better. Divert (great against Zoo and The Rock) misdirecting Bolts and Chains, or Hymns and Vindicates. Force Spike if there's a bunch of Tribal seems better because the cards you're concerned about are Aether Vial and guys, which Turn Aside and the others are all dead against. Disrupt seems fine also, while it doesn't shine against many particular match ups, maybe combo, it always cycles at worst.
That said I can't see any of these being more than a 2-of in the MD. They're nice for surprise factor, but can certainly be dead at times.
Sorry I picked up my petdeck last saturday so no report, but maybe next time.
Today I checked decks on thecouncil.org & saw a Counter Rebels list made 1st Place in Spain! Sick :D It plays 2 SDT & 3 Counterbalance... I would play City of Traitors instead of Ancient Tomb and only 2 and maybe 2 Cradle then. And 1 more SDT.
Another guy recommended playing Stifle&Wasteland&Daze Tempo Package in Rebels.
If you play straight rebel entity combo like the last lists posted, I would definitely replace Turn Aside with Divert Mainboard.
Cheers
While I basically just lurk in these forums, and more of goblins player, I have often had a soft spot for innovative different decks that players are totally unprepared for. Since recently legacy has been a big hit in our place (I'm a vintage player), I just port my gobs to legacy but had the same feeling though on a different spectrum. But I do have some rebel pieces (most of the cards mentioned here) and wanted to try this deck on the legacy scene. I've sleeved up the deck and tried it up a few times, and it was a blast to play, but still it was in its' testing stages and not in tournament plays. I often check this thread for updates and just fine tune the deck. I do agree with Hanni that the counterbalance/standstill shell should be dropped, and opt for a combo finish. I also have too many lands (I'm currently running 24 lands) but I think its a necessary evil to maintain the land drop since this deck is so mana-hungry.
I also wanted to ask here if anyone has tried to make this deck in mono-white. Sure it looses Training Grounds that makes the deck go a lot faster, but I would like to propose a mana base like this:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
10 Plains
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Gaea's Cradle
I also run one unconventional card: 1 Eternal dragon. Its plainscycling ability acts a fetch land in the deck and has a nice chance to be casted if given the sufficient mana (in case the Mirror Entity gets countered or worst if removed from the game where Lin Sivvi can't get it back). I maindecked the following cards to slow the game:
4 Rule of Law (since we're not casting our dudes)
4 Ethersworn Cannonist
3 Windborn Muse
Another thing is I also run the infinite life combo in my build (Task force + Outrider en-Kor + Miren, the Moaning Well), and though I admit its clunky, the combo comes handy when the Mirror Entity kill gets nerfed which is usually in games 2-3 where the opponent will do anything to stop it.
Thoughts and suggestions anyone?
Hi Yellow siomai,
I suggest that you still put blue for Training grounds since this fuels the deck. You can also add 2 enlightend for tutor and SB package. :) Just have the combo pieces and maybe 2 mirror entity, children of korlis. :)
Miss playing legacy in Ph.
Hello,
i'm checking mbs spoilers but no rebel so far :(
@yellow_siomai:
I think that cards like rule of law are too slow against most decks. Windborn muse looks useful against goblins or merfolk, but i think that ghostly prison is way better against those decks, cuz it's faster and more resilent against spot removal. If you play Enlightened Tutor in SB or MB you can search it if needed. If you splash blue i would recommend Propaganda to raise the blue count for FoW.
The deck feels stronger with blue to me, the only thing i'm concerned about is that FoW feels a little bit weak to me, because you have not that many pitch cards. If you play no FoW you should at least splash it for Training Grounds. There is no reason not to do it. Just one blue mana for this card is way too easy to get and you need not much white mana for your other cards.
I tried a white black list on a tournament and i was not convinced by it. But most decks i play have counters and FoW so maybe i just feel screwed without them :)
I like playing counters and i think they are good in this deck, but what i like the most of the rebel decks is that you can play almost anything that you want. You want to play mono white? Than just do it! You could even splash green for mana acceleration and cards like Seedborn Muse. As i mentioned before you can splash black for Discard and Vindicate or Snuff Out.
I played Counterbalance-Top Rebels yesterday in a 40 people tournament and finished 4-2. My losses were mostly due to playing mistakes...
I won against 3 Merfolk decks :D I realized that merfolk is a rather good matchup :) Swords to Plowshares is not necessary in rebels,too. I prefer playing more counters or utility. Even Lord of Atlantis makes your Rebels unblockable & strong thanks to Mirror Entity :)
I won against Reanimator without drawing sideboard cards :)
This looks like a job for me.
Most of my posts will be written from my phone, so please excuse the eventual lack of proper typing.
Honestly, the main reason why I run the deck in mono-white is because I lack a full set of FOWs. I have completely forgotten about ghostly prison, which is probably better with what I had in mind. I think I'll try an enchantment-support toolbox and see what happens. On the other hand, I hope more ideas pour in as i'm really interested in this thread. Hopefully, MBS gives something for us to toy with in this deck.
@ (nameless one)
Here is my list. I forgot mostly what happened during the tournament matches as I didn't write down anything.
I lost to Aggro Loam w/ Punishing Fire thanks to wishable Firespout.
Goblins gave me a hard time with double Siege-Gang Commander. I could have won the match against Goblins because I played miserable.
Still have to get much better at magic as I played only casual 1 year ago.
1x Arid Mesa
2x Scalding Tarn
4x Flooded Strand
2x Tundra
5x Island
5x Plains
1x Gaea's Cradle
4x Training Grounds
3x Counterbalance
3x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Brainstorm
4x Force Of Will
2x Daze
3x Spell Snare
1x Bound In Silence
4x Ramosian Sergeant
1x Children Of Korlis
1x Whipcorder
3x Defiant Falcon
1x Ramosian Lieutnant
1x Amrou Scout
1x Defiant Vanguard
2x Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero
2x Mirror Entity
Sideboard:
1x Aven Riftwatcher
1x Big Game Hunter
1x Dunerider Outlaw
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Pithing Needle
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Relic Of Progenitus
1x Absolute Law
1x Aura Of Silence
1x Serenity
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Spell Snare
2x Blue Elemental Blast
>
Note: I should have played 3 Tundra actually & 1 Knight Of the Holy Nimbus instead of Whipcorder or Children Of Korlis maindeck. The thing was I built the deck(-list) a few minutes before the tournament so I couldn't find Tundra & Knight in time.
Although I'm not happy about the spells (2 Daze,3 Spell Pierce, no STP & 1 Spell Snare in sb), it worked well in practice.
I'll probably go sb: -1 Aven Riftwatcher -1 Serenity, +1 Spell Snare/Blue Elemental Blast +1 Big Game Hunter
and mb: -1 Children Of Korlis -1 Spell Pierce, +1 Knight of the Holy Nimbus +1 Daze
-1 Plains, +1 Tundra
about Cradle: 2-3 Gaea's Cradle without CBTop, 1 with CB because of mana costs.
Hey Alexeezay,
thanks for your informations. I'm a little curious, did you play Spell Pierce or Spell Snare Mainboard? Looks like you mixed the names up in your post :).
Another question: When i tried the CB Top package in rebels i often had the problem, that i had to make the decision to go for the cb softlock or the rebel engine first. How did you play this deck?
Was Defiant Vanguard of use?
Thanks for your reply
It was Spell Pierce Main & random Spell Snare in Sideboard.I just put it in randomly because it's good against Merfolk and Pridemage/Stonemystic/Goyf-stuff where Spell Pierce is bad.
Actually it always depends on what's your hand/draw.I would drop Counterbalance & Top as soon as you can unless you got Ramosian Sergeant/Training Grounds because it combos very fast.If your hand is like Cb,Top,Grounds,2cmc/3cmc Recruiter,balance,2 lands I would go 1st turn Top second balance to protect your upcoming combo stuff.If your opponent plays Daze maybe 2nd turn grounds and mana for Top open. etc....
The great thing about recruiting with Counterbalance is that you can use their effect like a fetchland.without Top, Counterbalance is still very good in this deck thanks to brainstorm/recruiters.
Defiant Vanguard is a surprise factor against Pithing Needle & aggro decks/big guys.Also it's good to reveal via CBTop to counter our worst nightmares called E.Plague/P.Deed/Firespout & K.grip. Better than Aven riftwatcher bcuz he isn't a recruiter
the cool thing about this deck is that your opponents aren't really prepared for your crazy stuff. When I played against Goblins I had 2 Recruiters out. He played Needle naming Lin Sivvi & wanted to burn the other but I just fetched up Mirror Entity & Whipcorder or something in response. Of course all in the right order :D
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