Players vs. Deckbuilders and Tarmogoyf

[ktkenshinx]

Yeah 4 clamp + 1/1's was super creative. Get real. Did you even play competitive magic then? Because I did and it was pretty fucking boring from a play and construction perspective.

I was active in both Extended and Standard at the time of Clamp's dominance, first in standard from February 2004 until June 2004, and then in Extended from June until September. What most people do not realize is the context in which Clamp was banned. It got axed in Standard because the format had 3 decks; Affinity, Goblins, and Elves. If you did not play Clamp or answer Clamp, you lost. That was about the most miserable format to play in, and I agree that it was extremely boring from both perspectives.

Extended represents a bit of a different situation. There were no Extended events (not Wizards organized, at least) in between Clamp's banning in June for Standard, and its banning in September for Extended. But there were tons of Online Magic events in that period. And in Online Extended, Skullclamp was even more out of control than it had been in Standard. You had more cards, more options, but the same damn Artifact as a 3-4 of in every deck that ran creatures. If you didn't run Clamp, you ran Artifact Mutation and Oxidize in spades. And you probably lost to Clamp anyway. It was RAMPANT in Online Extended during this period.

Now, I did not play Online Extended, but I followed the format. I tested in local competitions as a warm-up for the Extended season coming in Fall of 2004. There, outside of Online Extended, Clamp was not nearly as bad. Remember, back in 2004 Extended had access to a bejesus load of serious artifact removal; Meltdown, Shatterstorm, Rack and Ruin, Energy Flux, etc. just to name a few. Until these babies rotated out, Affinity was really kept in check. Aluren, Reanimator, Life, Madness; these were the big names in town until the rotation.

Magic Online got Clamp banned in Extended before it even saw the light of day in a serious Extended tournament. But the Extended environment was quite different from the Standard one; Clamp would have made an impact on the format, but looking at the top decks of the time, it would not have been utterly dominant.

So I must ask people to review the history of the Skullclamp banning. Perhaps my memory of it is flawed, and I am open to criticisms where warranted. But the bottom line remains clear; Skullclamp in Standard was a nightmare. Skullclamp in Online Extended was even worse. Skullclamp in physical-card Extended? That was quite different.

Deckbuilders and Players from Standard hated Clamp. Deckbuilders and Players from Online Extended absolutely loathed Clamp. But Deckbuilders and Players from physical card Extended, those preparing for the upcoming season, recognized its power, but recognized its serious competition with faster decks and more powerful cards. My initial assertion holds; Clamp was not disliked by Deckbuilders in this brief era.

-ktkenshinx-

[Rizso]

Yeah 4 clamp + 1/1's was super creative. Get real. Did you even play competitive magic then? Because I did and it was pretty fucking boring from a play and construction perspective.

People liked Skullclamp about as much as dying on turn 2/3 every other match thanks to Urza's Block.

I remember Elf tendrills... not very fun to play against, neither was affinity with skullclamp. Pretty broken the standard format was then. Maindecking like 16-20 artifact destruction spells/creatures

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

My initial assertion holds; Clamp was not disliked by Deckbuilders in this brief era.

-ktkenshinx-

No, it was, but that was largely because, unlike with Legacy, there was never actually a separate community for Extended. Those were all Standard players, which is where they learned to hate Skullclamp.

There's also very little chance that it would have been any less retarded in that format.

[Zilla]

I am fully aware of Skullclamp's prevalence in 2004 and 2005 across all formats.

Not all. It was legal in Legacy before it was called Legacy (still Type 1.5) and it wasbarely played at all. In the face of Food Chain Goblins, fully powered WelderMUD, Bazaar-legal World-Gorger Dragon, and Mana Drain-powered Landstill, playing 1/1's was a pretty weak strategy by comparison.

Given the lower power level across the board in the format now, Skullclamp would probably be a more effective strategy in the present Legacy metagame, but I strongly doubt it would be as prevalent or format impacting as Tarmogoyf is if it were unbanned.

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

I'm a deckbuilder (w/o notable skills though) and I hate the goyf (and nacatl and all those other stupid, boring, mostly green, new OPed zoo threats). Wizards should print a good legacy threat with protection from green and vigilance. Somethink like a 1WBU: 3/4 flying vigilance lifelink protection from green and red artifact creature.

[frogboy]

Not all. It was legal in Legacy before it was called Legacy (still Type 1.5) and it wasbarely played at all. In the face of Food Chain Goblins, fully powered WelderMUD, Bazaar-legal World-Gorger Dragon, and Mana Drain-powered Landstill, playing 1/1's was a pretty weak strategy by comparison.

Unless, of course, you supplemented your 1/1s with Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors, and Exalted Angel while using Decree of Justice more as a draw engine than as a Fireball.

[kabal]

Honestly I consider myself more of a deck tuner/refiner than anything. I am very good at tweaking decks and making them more effective but there really isn't any room for innovation in legacy.

+1

and kabal always plays Tempo Thresh and his games usually go to time.

Way to beat that dead horse. Out of my last 3 tournaments during the month of Dec09 playing TT, one match went to time. Sorry that my games don't end by turn four, by hey not everyone loves a "game of solitaire".

[alderon666]

I'm a deckbuilder (w/o notable skills though) and I hate the goyf (and nacatl and all those other stupid, boring, mostly green, new OPed zoo threats). Wizards should print a good legacy threat with protection from green and vigilance. Somethink like a 1WBU: 3/4 flying vigilance lifelink protection from green and red artifact creature.

I don't mind them printing creatures with drawbacks.

See Qasali Pridemage, Knight of the Reliquary and Wild Nacatl. They are all very undercosted creatures, but each has advantages and disadvantages. Nacatl depends on land types, Qasali is green and white and Reliquary wants to be big but needs to tap to use his ability.

Tarmogoyf costs 2, is splashable, outclasses the shit out of every creature in the format... and, sure, he depends on the graveyard. But, most of the times, if you spend time trying to attack the graveyard he is just gonna kill you anyway.

[majikal]

I hear Skullclamp + Bloodghast is brokensauce. Let's leave that banned.

[paK0]

Player and I like it.

The only things i build are changing 2 maindeck cards and build a sb, rest is up to people smarter than me.

Format is healthy right now, Goyf is a part of it so I really like it.

[Zilla]

I hear Skullclamp + Bloodghast is brokensauce. Let's leave that banned.

I'm not actually advocating the unbanning of Skullclamp mind you, but I think the format comes pre-prepared for that combo. It's too slow to matter to most combo, it's succeptible to the prevalent types of blue-based control, and the format already hates the hell out of the graveyard thanks to Goyf. I think Skullclamp would produce some strong archetypes if it were unbanned, but probably not to the point of being broken. Again though, I'm in the better safe than sorry camp on that one.

[Otter]

Both and don't give a shit -- I've got several established things built and play them frequently, but I'm also trying to bring Berserk Stompy back from the dead and have some other pet projects like Astral Slide. I really just don't care about Goyf, I see him as a benchmark of the game state. If what I'm playing can't deal with a large vanilla dude, my deck's gameplan has failed and I've lost. I don't have any issue with that.

Oh, and what's up with people who say that there isn't room for innovation in legacy, especially because of Goyf? Just this weekend the NoGoyf deck beat the hell out of the 5k. Not only is that thing new, but it obviously doesn't play Goyf. Seriously...

[sunshine]

Oh, and what's up with people who say that there isn't room for innovation in legacy, especially because of Goyf? Just this weekend the NoGoyf deck beat the hell out of the 5k. Not only is that thing new, but it obviously doesn't play Goyf. Seriously...

Haha, is it bad that all this time I assume NoGoyf stood for Natural Order + Tarmogoyf. I'd say that's a sign I've been playing with rainbow lands for too long.

[Forbiddian]

Interesting poll, although I usually hate this kind of shit.


I'm a deck designer and I like Goyf.

I actually like that it streamlines the opposition. You can count on seeing a dozen+ Goyfs in a tournament, so you know what you have to beat. It gives you a starting point and a reliable litmus test. If you choose not to play Goyf, there's also a lot of room for innovation that's untapped by the people who stick trops and 4 Goyfs everywhere.


I think maybe a lot of designers blame Goyf for their deck not succeeding, but it's really just how strong Legacy is. Legacy is so damn good now. It's not like it was in 2003 when you could just maindeck Tivadar's Crusade and your tier 3 combo deck can make the top 8 by cheating on the Goblins litmus test.

There are so many different tier 1 and good tier 2 decks in Legacy right now that you can't shore up your holes and be successful with anything other than an extremely competitive AND synergistic deck.

Your maindeck has to be good and your sideboard has to be great if you want to succeed. Both of those tend to streamline players away from the Tier 2 combo decks like Enchantress, Reanimator, and Dream Halls that deck designers love.


But really, if Goyf were gone, Tier 2 combo would still be Tier 2. I won't support this argument too much, since it's just my wild speculation, but:

I think Lion's Eye Diamond does more to stifle deck designer's hopes, since it shoves Storm combo and Ichorid combo way ahead of the nifty combos like Painter's Grind, Helm Leyline, Volrath's Shapeshifter, Cephalid Breakfast, Mizzium Vault, etc.

[Artowis]

Just this weekend the NoGoyf deck beat the hell out of the 5k. Not only is that thing new, but it obviously doesn't play Goyf. Seriously...

Then lost to a bunch of Goyfs from a Zoo player. Sweet life.

[caiomarcos]

As it stands now, a total of 52 persons have positive feelings for Goyf, 75 have negative feelings and 53 don't give a shit.

It shows that a pretty substantial number of the Legacy community actually find Goyf a bad thing, but also shows that even if that is a big number, it is not the majority of people.

[bruno_tiete]

I am mainly a player and I dislike goyf because of its impact in threat variety. Goyf stalemates are sickening. It's so dumb that Qasali Pridemage gets a bunch of extra cookies just for "fixing" this.

[Digital Devil]

I am mainly a deckbuilder. The few times I play against Goyf (Few? ~NC), I don't bother, because my deck has n ways to deal with him. I don't blame Goyf at all. I blame *the gap* between Goyf and all other existing creatures. I like to build my deck geometrically, but Tarmogoyf is played in so many decks that I have to twist my entire deckbuilding process in order to accomplish the goal of getting rid of that monster. And I'm sick, 'cause I can't play my favourite card maindeck (Cataclysm) because he does simply exist. I wouldn't play that much removal spells if it weren't for him. Not only it harms your opponent's deckbuilding choices because it is better than any other creature, it harms your own deckbuilding choices because you are forced to solve the conundrum "Shall I play my own Goyfs or shall I play more answers to Goyf?"

P.S. The second sentence was meant to be like this: "The few times I play, if I face Goyf I don't bother [...]"

[Illissius]

For the record, I'm a deckbuilder and the reason I like Goyf, as opposed to being neutral, I think basically boils down to the fact that it makes the kind of decks I like more viable and suppresses many of the ones I don't like.

[LegacyDan]

In the other thread a conjecture has sprung up claiming that people who are mainly deckbuilders dislike the presence of Tarmogoyf in the format, whereas people who are mainly players like it. Seeing as I'm a deckbuilder and like it, I'm curious how valid this conjecture really is. Obviously a poll of self-selected Sourcers isn't exactly scientific either, but it's better than nothing.

Edit: To be very clear, this is not whether you think it should be banned; it's more whether you would, on balance, rather prefer Legacy with or without Tarmogoyf (as if it were never printed, or whatever), and whether you like the card and its effect on the format in general.

Legacy was a format before Tarmogoyf was printed and it still thrives today.

Tarmogoyf is a creature, nothing more, nothing less. It dies to almost all forms of removal(STP, Smother, Snuff Out, Vindicate, Deed, EE), it gets ripped outta hand by various discard effects (Hymn, Thoughtseize, Unmask), and it needs both green mana to be cast (Wasteland, Sinkhole, Geddon), can be countered (FoW, Spell Snare, Counterbalance, Counterspell), and needs graveyards to live (Lavamancer, Leyline, Relic).

Now, if all of those things get banned for some reason then I can see Goyf getting the ban hammer. Now, I have never owned a goyf in my life, and most likely will not. Does this mean I dislike the card? no. Is it annoying to die to? yeah, but so are any other things the opponent uses to win. Get over it people, just get over it.

I am just a player. And Tarmogoyf is just a card. Its really just that simple.