Went to a 17-man unsactioned Legacy Tournament over the weekend and tried Tamiyo, Field Researcher as a one of...took out a Geist of Saint Traft since they had similar casting cost. Didn't get to cast her at all but situations I see she would've been good was against Death and Taxes and Eldrazi. I did play a couple games with her on mtgo and did cast her against a D&T deck, it actually stopped him from attacking for a turn. Against an Esper Control deck I drew some cards off of Lingering Souls tokens. I also played against a Miracles player that wouldnt attack with his Clique and Snapcaster because he didnt want me to draw cards, so it was virtually a fog. Played against a Painter deck where I tapped Grindstone for 3 turns delaying the combo till I found other answers.
I've found that I prefer Tamiyo mainboard to the other planeswalkers. We are a combat based deck and she excels in that by helping us draw cards or tapping opposing threats...esp for you guys running Geist and KOTR.
Been having issues versus Eldrazi and contemplating running a one of Worship in the board.
To join the talk about Clique, I think some of you are severely underestimating its ability, especially with Karakas.
Thoughts?
Heres my list:
Lands (20)
4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Polluted Delta
1 Karakas
1 Forest
Creatures (18)
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 True-Name Nemesis
2 Vendilion Clique
Spells (17)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
1 Ponder
1 Council's Judgment
Artifacts (3)
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
Enchantments (1)
1 Sylvan Library
Planeswalkers (1)
1 Tamiyo, Field Researcher
Sideboard (15)
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Kor Firewalker
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Rest In Peace
1 Path to Exile
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Spell Pierce
1 Krosan Grip
1 Containment Priest
1 Grafdigger's Cage
Last edited by streetMage; 11-07-2016 at 03:35 PM.
went 4-0 at Card Kingdom Monday night legacy last night after 3-1 last week with this list.
4x Deathrite
3x Noble Hierarch
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x True-name Nemesis
1x Vendillion Clique
1x Spell Queller
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
3x Daze
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Sylan Library
4x Swords to Plowshars
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Batterskull
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Jitte
3x Tropical Island
2x Tundra
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
1x Underground Sea
1x Bayou
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Windswept Heath
2x Flooded Strand
3x Wasteland
Sideboard:
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Meddling Mage
2x Zealous Persecution
1x Pithing Needle
1x Flusterstorm
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Path to exile
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Krosan Grip
1x Garruk Relentless
Undecided if I want to move Clique to sideboard for a second spell queller main. Queller has been good but I haven't been seen many red/pyro blasts lately.
How are the Abrupt Decays main for you? The manabase looks very rough for me. I've lost to mana issues more times than I'd like to admit.Originally Posted by jpowell
@streetMage: I don't underestimate Clique. I just never need it. The match ups I lose, Clique is bad. I consistently beat Miracles and Combo. I consistently lose to UR/x Delver. Also, I hate how precarious the mana is in this deck is already (if I could find a straight Bant list with TNN that worked, I would be on it) and Karakas exacerbates that.
The decays main have been really good though I could see not having any main in favor of something else.
The manabase has been ok but it is greedy. I've lost games because of it or a well timed wasteland on my opponents side if I was sloppy with my fetches. There has been a steep decline in the number of delver/wasteland/stifle decks in the card kingdom meta which has been helpful
Random note from my weekend. At the beginning of my round 2 match vs Shardless, I opened Misty, fetch for trop, play noble. My opponent commented, "So bant stoneblade, or maybe infect." I was amused that the deck is back "on the radar."
I played my 2 Stifle with KotR list at a weekly and finished second.
2-0 vs DnT
2-0 vs Maverick
2-0 vs Burn
0-2 vs DnT
Ironically the DnT player in the finals was way worst than the one in R1 and made all sorts of missplays. I faced 4 Flickerewisps in both games (g1 involved no Recruiter) so needless to say that TNN with Jitte in both games didn't cut it. I should have picked up his deck and shuffled it... On a good note, Stifle countered a lethal Rift Bolt, a Flickerwisp trigger, some SFM triggers and fetches like always. I was happy to have it main as well since there was an ANT player at the top tables. I am completely sold on Stifle as a 2-of so far, cutting a Daze and moving a Jace was the right move.
Also, I played 5 friendlies with Miracle (4 Mentor, 4 Daze, and Predict version) and took 3 out of 5 pre-board. I lost the first to many mulligans and lost to CB in another. No Decays main was difficult for this matchup.
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
I'd love to be able to play Stifle right now but I have so much trouble finding slots for it. I so frequently need the other cards more.
Going to try a 1:1 split with Clique and Spell Queller.
I wish Queller just made them draw a card rather than replaying the exiled one...
Does this card completely negate an opponents counterspell? For example, if I play Swords to Plowshares, they attempt to counter with Spell Pierce and I Spell Queller the Pierce, does the Swords resolve even if they kill the Queller in response to the Trigger?
I see alot of list running Meddling Mage as a sideboard card. When do you guys usually bring them in and what cards do you name...is it just really there for the combo matchups?
Lastly, I've been losing consistently to Eldrazi Stompy, thinking about adding Worship to my sideboard..
Thoughts...
Lots of things. You can use mage against combo, Miracles, Jund,
They recast the card, meaning they pick modes, targets, etc. again. So in this scenario, letting queller resolve, then killing it before the original Swords resolves will put their pierce back on the stack, presumably targetting swords again.
Or, if they draw removal later, they could wait until you cast something else to kill queller (and release pierce) to hit your current spell.
Naming what in particular?
That depends on board state...cannot tell you
Kobe is right, board state matters. Mage is a lot like cabal therapy, if you haven't played with it, it can take a while to get good, and free info from probe/clique, etc helps immensely. Against combo you typically name a linchpin card and against control you typically name a removal spell first, then a card they use to take over.
Some obvious ones (situations of course can always change these)
Lands: PFire first, Loam second
ANT: Tutor, tendrils, burning wish, massacre
Miracles: This one depends a lot, but I typically turn off plow and terminus, first the one they have more of left in their deck, unless I have an established board, then it is terminus first to preserve that board for a time.
BUG/Jund: abrupt decay/deluge, lily
Sneak and Show: Show and tell, cunning wish/sneak attack (again depending on build, mana available, etc).
Figure out what their plan is against you in a given game, then name a card important to that plan. Sometimes mage is a game lock, but often it will die and it is simply there to time walk your opponent while they find a way to deal with it, before they can go back to their plan A. The extra turn or two gives you time to attack them and find more disruption.
Meddling Mage can really only come in against "combo" decks, specifically decks that win the game through a combo:
Miracles: Terminus, Swords to Plowshares, Jace, Monastery Mentor (base heavily on your board, their graveyard, and the point in time of the game)
Sneak Show: Show and Tell, Sneak Attack
Storm: Infernal Tutor, Burning Wish, Lion's Eye Diamond, Dark Ritual, Ad Nauseum, Past in Flames (this one is a guessing game, which is okay since we play a bunch of permission)
Elves: GSZ, Natural Order, Glimpse of Nature (again, you'll have to guess, but usually you can determine when to call NO)
Lands: Punishing Fire, Life from the Loam, Crop Rotation (depends on the game state heavily, sometimes you'll need to call Loam first if they have a Loam hand)
Many other decks do not have critical spells for us to disable or they have enough removal diversity/manipulation that it is a liability (Delver, DnT, Shardless/Jund). However, in certain match ups, you have some possible targets, I'd personally advocate for:
Eldrazi: Thought-Knot Seer, Reality Smasher (Cavern of Souls is powerful, forcing them to Dismember a Meddling Mage can buy you time)
Other than that, I think most other match ups Mage is worse than other cards.
EDIT: Forgot Infect: Berserk, Invigorate
So I wanted to get to the bottom of why Knight always outshines Clique despite my, and all of Limbo's love for Clique. I decided to use my list as a template and figure out the best combination of a pair of 3drop threat between KotR and Clique (I currently see no other contenders for the slot), and the best complementary spell pair between Stifle, Pierce, and Decay. As usual I made a kickass chart and scored the cards and their combination in many graded matchups. Here is how all of this data was compiled and evaluated:
First, each card is given an individual score between 1-2 for all the matchups listed. This gives you an idea of the individual power level of the card in that particular metagame.
Second, each matchup is given an amount of stars between 1-3. I operated under the assumption that we are using a DRS, SFM, TNN, Bant deck (Force, Daze, StP, Noble) so the matchups are graded accordingly. 3 stars means the matchup greatly benefits from additional help from the flex slots (AKA: our main strategy isn't particularly strong). For example:
-Miracles has Terminus and Counterbalance that can blow us out and lock us down
-Storm, Sneak Show, and reanimator cares little about all of our cards except counterspells and DRS
2 stars means the matchup could benefit from additional support and can go either way, or that the matchup would warrant 3 stars but the card combination offered doesn't necessarily highly impact it. For example:
-Eldrazi can go either way but becomes significantly easier if you have Knight or can Decay Chalice
-UR Delver has 8 Flyers and an impressive clock so throwing a flying blocker or uncounterable removal greatly improves the matchup
-Elves can be tough but Clique, Knight, Stifle, Pierce, or Decay don't play a key role
1 star means the matchup is either mostly favorable or that the card combination has little impact.
-DnT, RUG, and Grixis is already much threatened by dorks into TNN and Jitte
-Burn is threatened by SFM only and none of the suggested cards swing the matchup significantly in our direction
Third, each pair of 3drop + flex spell is evaluated in the context of the best possible pair for every matchup. For example, Clique and Decay being the best possible combination against Miracles and UR Delver will be awarded 3 stars for Miracles and 2 stars for UR Delver for a total of 5 stars for these two matchups. Every pair is scored according to how many stars they cumulated in the "best possible pair" section.
Fourth, I repeat the process again but I score half the points for every possible combination that would be relevant to the matchup but not at it's highest impact. This way, each pair gets additional points for being "not dead cards" even though they might not have scored many "best possible combinations". This way, cards with high impact and limited applicability (Knight and Decay for instance) score lots of points in the first analysis but less so in the second where more generalized cards score the most (Clique and Pierce).
Additionally I added a bonus section with sideboard impacts. For example Clique over Knight necessitates additional SB GY exile hate in the absence of Bojuka Bog. This, by default, makes a matchup like Dredge more favorable to Clique where the matchup is mostly determined by postboard games where RiP is more likely to see play.
Without further adue, my analysis:
Card combination analysis as a DRS/SFM/TNN Bant tempo deck:
Miracle: Clique(2), Decay(2), Stifle(2), Pierce(1), Thalia(1)
ANT/TES: Clique(1), Stifle(2), Pierce(2)
Sneak Show: Knight(2), Clique(1), Pierce(2), Thalia(1)
Reanimator: Knight(2), Clique(GY hate)(1), Pierce(2)
Eldrazi: Knight(2), Decay(1), Thalia(1)
UR: Clique(1), Decay(2), Pierce(1), Thalia(1)
Elves: Clique(1), Decay(1), Thalia(2)
Infect: Knight(2), Clique(1), Decay(2), Stifle(1), Pierce(1), Thalia(1)
Shardless/Jund: Knight(2), Decay(1), Stifle(1), Pierce(1), Thalia(1)
Painter/Moon Stompy: Decay(2), Pierce(1)
DnT: Knight(1), Clique(1), Decay(2), Stifle(1), Thalia(1)
Grixis/RUG: Knight(2), Clique(1), Decay(2), Stifle(1), Thalia(1)
Burn: Pierce(1)
Lands: Knight(2), Clique(GY hate)(1), Stifle(1)
Dredge: Knight(1), Clique(GY hate)(2), Stifle(1), Pierce(1), Thalia(1)
Tezzerator/Enchantress: Knight(1), Clique(1), Decay(2), Pierce(1)
Knight: 3x1+7x2=17
Clique: 10x1+2x2=14
Thalia?: 9x1+1x2=11
Decay: 3x1+7x2=17
Stifle: 6x1+2x2=10
Pierce: 8x1+3x2=14
Best possible combination:
***Miracle: Clique + Decay/Stifle
***Storm: Clique + Stifle/Pierce
***Sneak Show: Knight + Pierce
***Reanimator: Knight + Pierce
**Eldrazi: Knight + Decay
**UR Delver: Clique + Decay
**Elves: Clique + Decay
**Infect: Knight + Decay
**Shardless/Jund: Knight + Decay/Stifle/Pierce
**Painter/Stompy: Knight/Clique + Decay
*DnT: Knight/Clique + Decay
*Delver: Knight + Decay
*Burn: Knight/Clique + Pierce
*Lands: Knight + Stifle
*Dredge: Clique(GY hate)+ Stifle/Pierce
*Tez/Enchantress: Knight/Clique + Decay
KotR + Decay: 7 (11*)
KotR + Stifle: 2 (3*)
KotR + Pierce: 4 (9*)
Clique + Decay: 6 (11*)
Clique + Stifle: 3 (7*)
Clique + Pierce: 3 (5*)
Good combinations (half stars)
***Miracle: Clique + Pierce, Knight + Decay/Stifle/Pierce
***Storm: Knight + Stifle/Pierce
***Sneak Show: Clique + Pierce
***Reanimator: Clique + Pierce
**Painter/Stompy: Knight/Clique + Pierce
**Eldrazi: Clique + Decay
**UR Delver: Clique + Pierce, Knight + Decay/Pierce
**Elves: Knight + Decay/Pierce, Clique + Pierce
**Infect: Knight + Pierce, Clique + Decay/Pierce
**Shardless/Jund: Clique + Decay/Stifle/Pierce
*DnT: Knight/Clique + Stifle
*Delver: Clique + Decay, Knight/Clique + Stifle/Pierce
*Burn: Knight/Clique + Decay
*Lands: Clique + Stifle
*Dredge: Knight + Stifle/Pierce
*Tez/Enchantress: Knight/Clique + Pierce
KotR + Decay: 4 (4*)
KotR + Stifle: 5 (4.5*)
KotR + Pierce: 9 (8.5*)
Clique + Decay: 5 (4*)
Clique + Stifle: 3 (1.5*)
Clique + Pierce: 11 (11*)
Bonus impacts
KotR + Decay: neutral SB (2 different blue hate), -2 blue main
KotR + Stifle: neutral SB
KotR + Pierce: neutral SB (2 different blue hate)
Clique + Decay: +1 slot for anything (2 Decay becomes 2 GY hate, Bog is bonus)
Clique + Stifle: -1 slot (1 slot becomes GY hate), +2 blue main
Clique + Pierce: neutral SB (2 Pierce becomes GY hate, Bog is blue hate), +2 blue main
Summary:
Knight + Pierce (31) is best in 4 matchups and good in 9 for 17.5*
-Best mainboard combination for most matchups
-Excels against Reanimator, Sneak Show, and Shardless BUG
-No poor matchups
-No edge against Miracles pre-board
-Best in an unknown meta or one high in midrange and combo decks
Clique + Pierce (28) is best in 3 matchups and good in 11 for 16*
-2nd best mainboard combination for most matchups
-Highest blue count mainboard (22)
-Better graveyard hate plan sideboard
-Excels against Storm
-Poor against Eldrazi
-Best in a combo and/or control meta low in Vial/Cavern aggro decks
Clique + Decay (31) is best in 6 matchups and good in 5 for 15*
-Tied for 3rd best mainboard combination for most matchups
-Better graveyard hate plan sideboard
-Excels against Miracles, UR Delver, and Elves
-Poor against Sneak Show and Reanimator
-Best in a controle and Delver meta low in combo decks
Knight + Decay (34) is best in 7 matchups and good in 4 for 15*
-Tied for 3rd best mainboard combination for most matchups
-Excels against Eldrazi, Infect, Jund, and Grixis/RUG Delver
-Poor against Storm and Dredge
-Lowest blue count mainboard (18)
-Best in an aggro and midrange meta low in combo decks
Clique + Stifle (24) is best in 3 matchups and good in 3 for 8.5*
-Not an optimal mainboard combination for most matchups
-Highest blue count mainboard (22)
-Excels against Miracles and Storm
-Poor against Eldrazi, Sneak Show, Reanimator, Infect
-Constricts sideboard space
Knight + Stifle (27) is best in 2 matchups and good in 5 for 7.5*
-Not an optimal mainboard combination for most matchups
-Excels against Shardless BUG, Jund, and Lands
-Poor against UR Delver and Elves
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
For me its as simple as you get value from Clique as soon as you cast it regardless of removal etc. Clique works well on it own and doesn't need to be built around having lands like Karakas, Maze of Ith and Wasteland in the deck.
Knight doesn't need to be built around either. I already play fetchlands and Wasteland in the deck so she grows naturally. As for Karakas, I play it anyway when I pack 2 Cliques instead. There is a world of difference between the effect of Clique and the impact of KotR on board. The fact that I can add a Maze or play Bojuka Bog SB is a possibility that I can choose or not to exploit that only Knight offers, and not a necessity to make Knight worthwhile.
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
If you're playing 3 Wastelands and 6+ fetches, you're at 90% value on "building around" Knight. The ability to main/board Bog/Maze/Karakas is gravy, but not required.
@Qweerios: Useful chart. It's helpful to have all that data laid out. I would make a couple cautions/qualifications though:
- The overall numbers/scores are closer than the precision of your system allows. I find a view of the usefulness of the cards in different matches more illuminating than the score take-aways. In sciencey-land, the margins of error for your individual ratings, propagated through the calculations, leaves numerical results that I don't think can be meaningfully compared.
- Match-ups probably shouldn't be so heavily weighted by favorability like that. While we're at 40%-60% on so much, Reanimator results shouldn't be 3x as important as DnT results. It's statistically about the same importance for our cards to be good in 40% and 60% match-ups. We don't really get free-wins or have terrible match-ups, so any difference that a card choice makes is worth about the same, irrespective of the match-up. (E.g., a slot change worth 5% in each game will raise a 40% gwp match by 7.0% and a 60% gwp match by 7.3%. If a change was better in the 40% match-up and worse in the 60% match-up, it's the same net effect.)
- Deck prevalence *is* a much more important feature. If you're weighing decks, weigh by metagame %. (Reanimator is comparatively rare and DnT is top-tier, has fresh cards, and has seen reprints - it's everywhere.)
@anwei,
I get what you are saying about DnT and reanimator. I used my own biased judgment for the chart and it is by no means a "scientific" quantification of card pairs but more of a careful evaluation. I didn't use a single metric for star allocation but more of a common sense approach. DnT for example, while popular and extremely powerful, won't be systematicaly threatened by Clique or KotR. Clique and Knight will sometimes be stellar, and sometimes be useless. The real takeway from whatever pair you choose in this matchup is whether you have: a) a dead Spell Pierce, b) a situational Stifle, or c) an important Decay. In the context of evaluating a pair, the pair has minimal sway due to having only half of it being meaningful. A matchup like Reanimator or SnT will be highly impacted by the presence of 2 more copies of Karakas mainboard (KotR) and is abysmal in G1, which makes a loss to one of those decks a significant factor should you have to face them.
I also understand that the way the matchup spread is laid out gives even weight to many matchups that probably shouldn't be as significant. The weight of DnT and Tez/Enchantress for example would be the same while it is clear that DnT is stronger and more prominent. One way to fix this would be to allocate more stars to top matchups in order to minimize the impact from the less common matchups. Another way would be to combine some matchups in order to get a more representative picture of a metagame. The problem with this is that a metagame is a live thing that isn't objectively quantifiable. One GP you face 4 Belchers in a row and a burn player and on day2 you face Infect and 3 DnT while in the end the top8 shows 3 Miracles players and 2 Eldrazi. For this reason alone I preffer evaluating a varied field evenly distributed than a statistically representative metagame of the most successful decks. Being solid against all eventualities is more important than having the silver bullets necessary to have an edge against the top tournament winning deck because you don't get a shot at those until you've walked across the field of not-so-insignificant janky decks out there... Or not
In summation, it would be reasonable to give another star to DnT and combine Reanimator and Sneak Show in the same category. It is reasonable to put Reanimator and DnT in the "Dredge" category where not much should be done G1 to mitigate our terrible odds. This gives more weight to Decay and less to Pierce and Knight.
***Edit***
I modified the chart by combining Reanimator and Sneak Show, adding a star to DnT, and removing Dredge from the chart altogether. The results have drastically changed and now reflect more what I originally believed (AKA: Decay is more important than Pierce). Here is my new summary:
Summary:
Clique + Decay (29) is best in 6 matchups and good in 5 for 15*
-Tied for 1st best mainboard combination for most matchups
-Frees an additional SB slot
-Excels against Miracles, UR Delver, and Elves
-Poor against Sneak Show and Reanimator
Knight + Decay (30) is best in 7 matchups and good in 4 for 15*
-Tied for 1st best mainboard combination for most matchups
-Excels against Eldrazi, Infect, Jund, and Grixis/RUG Delver
-Poor against Storm
-Lowest blue count mainboard (18)
Knight + Pierce (25) is best in 3 matchups and good in 8 for 13.5*
-3rd mainboard combination for most matchups
-Excels against Reanimator, Sneak Show, and Shardless BUG
-Poor against Miracles
Clique + Pierce (24) is best in 2 matchups and good in 10 for 13*
-4th best mainboard combination for most matchups
-Highest blue count mainboard (22)
-Excels against Storm
-Poor against Eldrazi
Clique + Stifle (22) is best in 2 matchups and good in 3 for 8*
-Not an optimal mainboard combination for most matchups
-Highest blue count mainboard (22)
-Excels against Miracles and Storm
-Poor against Eldrazi, Sneak Show, Reanimator, Infect
-Constricts sideboard space
Knight + Stifle (23) is best in 2 matchups and good in 4 for 7.5*
-Not an optimal mainboard combination for most matchups
-Excels against Shardless BUG, Jund, and Lands
-Poor against UR Delver and Elves
...Keep in mind that these changes are for a deck sporting 3 Daze and 1 Jace mainboard. Your 2 flex slots might as well be a 4th Daze and a 2nd Jace main. Personally I haven't been impressed with Jace all that much and have actively been digging/wishing for Decay more than once. Daze has a tendency to be clunky and 3 copies have been deemed optimal for many decks (non-Delver decks to be precise). T
here is also always the possibility of playing 1 Knight, 1 Clique, 1 Pierce/Counterspell, and 1 Decay mainboard. This combination mitigates Cliques legendary status by having multiples, double the availability of Karakas for Clique and against DnT and Reanimator, offers a single Decay as a mainboard out to dig for against troublesome permanents G1, and a single complementary counterspell as an upgrade to a clunky 4th Daze.
Last edited by Qweerios; 10-23-2016 at 08:00 PM.
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
I'm running stifle and Leovold in the creature flex spot for Eternal Weekend and I'm very happy with its positioning compared to clique, knight, or thalia.
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