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Thread: [Deck] Bant

  1. #2161
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    Re: [Deck] Bant

    Quote Originally Posted by ClimbGneiss View Post
    Oh, yeah, I get that. I meant to say that your Abrupt decays are going to be stretched fairly thin versus miracles. And I've seen the discussions that the counter top combo is troublesome, so I was just thinking that the seals could help while also having other benefits. Otherwise, the answer has to be more 3 and 4 CMC non creature spells, which has been my go-to back up plan.
    Having access to elspeth, gideon, decays, and cliques should be sufficient against miracles. You can even play winter orbs. There's no reason to go that deep into the 4th color.

  2. #2162

    Re: [Deck] Bant

    Quote Originally Posted by KobeBryan View Post
    Having access to elspeth, gideon, decays, and cliques should be sufficient against miracles. You can even play winter orbs. There's no reason to go that deep into the 4th color.
    Yeah, I agree. Sorry if I was being unclear. I wasn't advocating going further into black, I was advocating for looking into adding seal of cleansing or primordium into the sideboard to help versus miracles. Also useful versus shardless (strix, agent, and null rod), the mirror, lands (sort of), etc.

  3. #2163
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    Re: [Deck] Bant

    Quote Originally Posted by ClimbGneiss View Post
    Yeah, I agree. Sorry if I was being unclear. I wasn't advocating going further into black, I was advocating for looking into adding seal of cleansing or primordium into the sideboard to help versus miracles. Also useful versus shardless (strix, agent, and null rod), the mirror, lands (sort of), etc.
    Krosan grip would be better.

  4. #2164

    Re: [Deck] Bant

    Quote Originally Posted by ClimbGneiss View Post
    Yeah, I agree. Sorry if I was being unclear. I wasn't advocating going further into black, I was advocating for looking into adding seal of cleansing or primordium into the sideboard to help versus miracles. Also useful versus shardless (strix, agent, and null rod), the mirror, lands (sort of), etc.
    Sorry if you got jumped on :)

    Ultimately, the proactive nature (to prep against future CBalance) is probably matched by K Grip, which is more useful for things like Batterskull as well. It also carries the disadvantages of sorcery speed and opening up to Wear/Tear on equipment+seal.
    Quote Originally Posted by 'Nilla Pac View Post
    I've goldfished with Doomsday decks about twenty times and I still haven't won a game yet.

  5. #2165

    Re: [Deck] Bant

    Quote Originally Posted by anwei View Post
    Sorry if you got jumped on :)

    Ultimately, the proactive nature (to prep against future CBalance) is probably matched by K Grip, which is more useful for things like Batterskull as well. It also carries the disadvantages of sorcery speed and opening up to Wear/Tear on equipment+seal.
    Krosan Grip makes sense. Always a fan of that card.

  6. #2166

    Re: [Deck] Bant

    On the point of Artifact/enchantment removal in the board, K grip is the way to go. I have never been sad to have one of these available. It isn't proactive, like a seal, but the split second clause is worth it. I especially like it if you are keeping 1 forest, as your opponent has almost no way to keep you off of it.


    Aside: Just a quick FYI for people in this string. I have been working on an alternative deck that I am liking a lot. Much better delver matchup and keeps most of what I like about Bant, with more stable mana. (BUG midrange) Losing StM and Plow are huge but the stability boost is great. 8 dorks, still keeping 4 wastelands and some dazes, can play Leovold consistently, etc.

  7. #2167

    Re: [Deck] Bant

    Another flex slot option that I haven't seen as much lately is maindeck Pridemage. This was more prominent a couple years ago with the first DRS lists, but seems fine at the moment: exalted is nice, QP is reasonably costed to dodge CB, and it's a solid ability against equipment, Miracles, Challice decks, etc. It may not be better than maindeck Decay, but is an option.

    An interaction I hadn't thought much about is boarding in Surgical for Miracles. Hitting any of StP, Mentor, Terminus, CB, or SDT is pretty fine, even with card disadvantage (especially responding to SCM). But more, hitting a relevant spell in response to instant-speed top flip (or a read on their brainstorm) is sick. Experience with this?
    Quote Originally Posted by 'Nilla Pac View Post
    I've goldfished with Doomsday decks about twenty times and I still haven't won a game yet.

  8. #2168
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    Re: [Deck] Bant

    Quote Originally Posted by anwei View Post
    Another flex slot option that I haven't seen as much lately is maindeck Pridemage. This was more prominent a couple years ago with the first DRS lists, but seems fine at the moment: exalted is nice, QP is reasonably costed to dodge CB, and it's a solid ability against equipment, Miracles, Challice decks, etc. It may not be better than maindeck Decay, but is an option.

    An interaction I hadn't thought much about is boarding in Surgical for Miracles. Hitting any of StP, Mentor, Terminus, CB, or SDT is pretty fine, even with card disadvantage (especially responding to SCM). But more, hitting a relevant spell in response to instant-speed top flip (or a read on their brainstorm) is sick. Experience with this?
    i read before from the BUG delver people that surgical is no good against miracles. Thats what I read. I usually do not have enough cards to board in after daze and plows i usually have extra space.

  9. #2169

    Re: [Deck] Bant

    Quote Originally Posted by KobeBryan View Post
    Krosan grip would be better.
    I run Aura Shards, it's pretty fun if it lands. Pretty good against equipment decks, miracles, and makes Solitaire weep.

  10. #2170
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    Re: [Deck] Bant

    I went 3-1 in my last two weeklies losing in the finals to burn...

    R1: 2-0 Eldrazi
    R2: 2-1 Enchantress
    R3: 2-0 4c Delver
    R4: 0-2 Burn

    R1: 2-0 Grixis Delver
    R2: 2-1 Manaless Dredge
    R3: 2-0 Shardless
    R4: 0-2 Burn

    The burn matchup is starting to feel somewhat helpess without SFM or basic lands/wasteland. Last week I lost to PoP and Fireblast T3 both games and this week I lost to T3 PoP and Fireblast again and the last game I never found a 2nd land and lost to double Guide and Swiftspear. I usually try to stick to two duals and play a 3rd or 4th only if I have a Waste or FoW for PoP but sometimes I have to extend for TNN in the absence of a SFM in order to get something going. My SB against burn usually consists of:

    -1 TNN, -1 Leo, -1 SoFaI, -1 Library, -1 Jace, -1 Trop
    +2 Meddling Mage, +2 Flusterstorm, +1 Counterspell, +1 Decay

    An approach to burn I've been contemplating consists of cutting a black dual and leaving Decays out in order to function as a Bant deck that plays TNN off Tundra + Trop + Waste/Dork. This aproach is only better in the advent that the burn player opts to side out most of his creatures in favor of more direct damage. Even though I believe playing less creatures G2 for burn is the way to go against us, most burn players aren't experienced enough to recognize this strategy and so may not be enclined to side out Guides on the draw for example, which makes Decays postboard a potentially better strategy. Here's my current list:


    3 Noble Hierarch
    4 Deathrite Shaman
    4 Stoneforge Mystic
    4 True-Name Nemesis
    1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
    1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

    4 Force of Will
    4 Daze
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    2 Abrupt Decay
    2 Ponder

    1 Umezawa's Jitte
    1 Sword of Fire and Ice
    1 Batterskull
    1 Sylvan Library

    4 Wasteland
    4 Flooded Strand
    4 Polluted Delta
    3 Tropical Island
    2 Tundra
    1 Scrubland
    1 Underground Sea
    //SB
    1 Pithing Needle
    2 Meddling Mage
    2 Containment Priest
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Flusterstorm
    1 Counterspell
    1 Abrupt Decay
    1 Zealous Persecution
    1 Life from the Loam
    1 Garruk Relentless
    1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


    I remain skeptical about Leo as I don't see him play a key role in the deck. The key matchups for this deck to improve IMO are Shardless, Miracles and Combo. Leo is strong against Shardless when he sticks around long enough to blank a few cards, otherwise going 2 for 1 on a Decay isn't backbreaking for them. Leo has some application against combo G1 when he hits the board on T2 and they have to rely on cantrips to find key cards, otherwise he isn't so hot. As for Miracles, Leo isn't particularly great there. Jace, however, is quite strong against Shardless and Miracles as he procures a different angle of attack and will either match the card advantage or bury your opponent. The downside to Jace is that he is mostly worthless against combo with the exception of a few Reanimator and SnT sequences. Going forward I believe Jace is the way to go mainboard with Combo decks being dealt with postboard.

    Counterspell in the board has been underperforming and Jace will move main. I think I'll swap the 2nd Priest for Leo in the side and look for 2 new blue spells, preferably for combo with some overlap against Shardless and Miracles. I am thinking about either a pair of Spell Pierce or Stifle. Pierce would improve every Combo matchup (especially SnT and GY combo decks now that I am removing a Priest for Leo) as well as anything Blood Moon related (and Burn!). Stife sounds a little better at edging against Miracles, Shardless, and Storm in particular.
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  11. #2171

    Re: [Deck] Bant

    Haven’t had a ton of time to post in the last few weeks with the winter season starting but I wanted to answer a few questions:

    @TSmiley how do you fit Gurmarg on the list, it is really good choice agasit BUG, Tempo and Eldracy decks. Do you have any recent changes on your decklist

    I have some very minor changes that I made maindeck -1 jace + 1 gurmag (more significant changes in the sb with an added surgical and decay) Def running the list in Louisville in a few weeks.


    @TSmiley,

    Why Gurmag over Hooting Mandrills? I think being on-color, costing less, and having trample are all valid reasons to choose the green delver. 4/4 still trades with all the Eldrazis (doesn't trump TKS though), puts forth a significant clock, survives a Bolt and can't be Decayed. Trample is quite relevant with cards like SoFaI and opposing TNN. Sure it doesn't beat a 4/5 Goyf but I don't encounter those often. The only good Goyf deck I've faced recently has been Shardless where they are all 5/6-7/8 anyway and where Trample would have been more beneficial than +1/+1.

    Getting through opposing anglers is important- which is why we don’t run Tasigur over angler (a less important reason is the karakas interaction). Trample is nice but not being to swing into an opposing angler without a hierarch is important.


    On stifle: I am considering bumping the number to 3- I think it’s incredibly good/flexible right now and it complements what the deck is trying to accomplish in a very efficient manner.

  12. #2172

    Re: [Deck] Bant

    Quote Originally Posted by Qweerios View Post
    My SB against burn usually consists of:

    -1 TNN, -1 Leo, -1 SoFaI, -1 Library, -1 Jace, -1 Trop
    +2 Meddling Mage, +2 Flusterstorm, +1 Counterspell, +1 Decay
    Isn't Leovold pretty good against burn?

  13. #2173
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    Re: [Deck] Bant

    I don't like Leo against burn because when I lose it's always with a bunch of cards in hand I didn't have time to cast. Dorks don't live very long in that matchup and playing a 3rd land that isn't Wasteland is just asking for a lethal PoP. 3drops in general against burn have to be high impact to be worthwhile. I used to cut TNN entirely before but now I keep a few in since I have other cards to cut now that I've adopted SoFaI.

    On to Gurmag... that card never caused me any trouble so I don't understand the need for a Gurmag of my own. I think Delver matchups are all favorable. Personally I find Jace to be a great answer to Gurmag and Delver as well as a stellar card for Shardless and Miracles (more so than Gurmag or Tasigur). I also think that Ponder beats Stifle any day, especially with Gurmag and I am saying that as a huge Stifle fan. I think 4c Delver is where Stifle/Gurmag/TNN is at its finest. 4c Blade is more about going bigger than going faster.

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  14. #2174
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    Re: [Deck] Bant

    Oh I forgot! There is another creature you might want to look into if you want something huge that wrecks Eldrazi and Delver. It also happens to be quite good with Stifle because its tap ability grabs you a Wasteland.

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  15. #2175

    Re: [Deck] Bant

    I think we have different opinions on if jace is a good answer to delver. I'm also not saying Gurmag caused me trouble- its just super efficient and has earned its spot in my deck. Believe me that I have cast a knight of the reliquary or two in my day- the thing is- its never cost one mana for me ever- and it always gets hit by decay. I've been extremely pleased with stifle and angler and its worth trying.

  16. #2176

    Re: [Deck] Bant

    Reid Duke just posted a 4c bant video. http://www.channelfireball.com/video...old-dark-bant/
    Strange list with 21 land, 3 jace and without maindeck StP.

  17. #2177
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    Re: [Deck] Bant

    He says he needs to work on the mana base but went 4-1 pretty handily and says he'll continue to work on it. Every time I want to not play Bant I find another reason to try again.

  18. #2178
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    Re: [Deck] Bant

    I like the direction he is going with the deck as I had something similar in mind. Changing StP into Decay sounds like an upgrade to me. All you need to do is make white the splash and black the 3rd color (-1 Tundra +1 USea) and you get an even more solid manabase with 1 more black source for DRS and your splash color being covered by Noble while you double up on black lands instead of white. I also like how he is all-in on Dorks and cantrips and wins with simple TNN beats with the occasional SFM. Another thing I like about making white the splash and black the 3rd color is how white SB cards are better for non-wasteland decks while the black ones are generally better against wasteland decks.

    Another option could also be to simply play something like a 3/3 Decay/StP split and just add another USea or Scrubland over Tundra and throw in a 9th fetch as a 20th land with an 8 Dork configuration. I personally like those kind of greedy alternatives.

    As for this weeks weekly, I didn't face Burn and made a couple of changes. Basically I played my list above and swaped Main Leo with SB Jace and packed 2 Spell Pierce over Counterspell and the 2nd Priest SB.

    2-0 Miracles
    2-1 Jund
    2-1 Miracles
    2-1 Eldrazi

    3-0 Elves (for fun)
    3-0 Jund (for fun)

    Pierce was great against Miracles all night. I lost G1 to Miracles to a CB lock so I am contemplating real hard that StP for Decay switch. SoFaI is a great card against Miracles mainboard. A lot of my success in this matchup is due to SoFaI and drawing a Decay or Jace G1. Ideally I believe a 3/3 split of StP and Decay would be ideal as it would also free up a SB slot. Cutting a Daze for a Ponder is also a serious consideration.

    I am curious to figure out which is better between a 4th SFM and a SoFaI main vs. 2 Leovolds?
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  19. #2179
    Joe Cool Above All
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    Re: [Deck] Bant

    What do you think of the Unkoman list that 5-0ed?

  20. #2180

    Re: [Deck] Bant

    Quote Originally Posted by HSCK View Post
    What do you think of the Unkoman list that 5-0ed?
    For reference:

    Creature (20)
    4 Deathrite Shaman
    3 Knight of the Reliquary
    1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
    4 Noble Hierarch
    4 Stoneforge Mystic
    4 True-Name Nemesis

    Instant (16)
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Daze
    4 Force of Will
    4 Swords to Plowshares

    Artifact (2)
    1 Batterskull
    1 Umezawa's Jitte

    Enchantment (1)
    1 Sylvan Library

    Land (21)
    2 Flooded Strand
    1 Forest
    1 Karakas
    3 Misty Rainforest
    1 Scrubland
    3 Tropical Island
    2 Tundra
    1 Underground Sea
    4 Wasteland
    3 Windswept Heath

    Sideboard (15)
    3 Abrupt Decay
    1 Containment Priest
    1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
    1 Engineered Plague
    1 Ethersworn Canonist
    2 Flusterstorm
    2 Meddling Mage
    1 Path to Exile
    2 Surgical Extraction
    1 Sword of Fire and Ice
    After playing a couple Retreat lists and thinking more about Knight in this list, this is interesting, particularly because he/she does just jam the Karakas and go up to 21 lands. This seems unnecessarily weak against Miracles, with only 1 planeswalker in the 75 (he's often run 3-4), but I think Knight is worth trying/considering.
    Quote Originally Posted by 'Nilla Pac View Post
    I've goldfished with Doomsday decks about twenty times and I still haven't won a game yet.

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