Didn't get to try it this weekend for reasons, but I'm pretty interested in testing Elspeth a bit. the Flying she adds and the +3 is basically extra "equipment." I've moved to Dryad Arbor instead of DRS to give me another equipable/elspethable dude; and "flash" seems good with that.
I think 'S'eth is well positioned against TNN and YP due to that Flying, but we'll see how it turns out Thursday. Getting excited to waste people out with KotR again :D
EDIT: I should say, i'm mainly on bant for KotR->Karakas because Sneakshow seems to be the former-Miracles deck of choice and I got munched by it last time. Instead of Decay I'm playing the Blue-Pulse too, or Detention Sphere as it's more likely known. I'm going that route to help with the same issue, help with the big-cmc baddies, and to deal with TES's gobbo plan and the uptick in BSKs I expect. The fact it could help if Omnishow pops up is nifty as well.
It may not come up, but the added benefit of occasionally getting CA from it seems ok.
Regardless of DSphere, KotR is a mainstay to me for wasting BUG and dealing with the more obnoxious Legends that are flying around. I was even Emrakul'd by Nic Fit the other day (sneak attack), so having fat, wasting power, and karakas seems good
Originally Posted by Nestalim
Why is Dryad Arbor any better than DRS at wearing equipment or flying in the air? There isn't a "cannot attack" clause on DRS...
Also, I don't think the Maverick/blue is a bad approach to a Bant deck, but it is significantly different than the 8 mana dork + TNN + SFM plan that maybe there should be a new thread created? This thread is called Bant, which is super generic...
I personally refer to the deck as Nobleblade, but I've seen tons of various names for the deck, from Dark Bant to Leovold Stoneblade.
Dryad Arbor can be tutored with any fetch, ie it has "flash", and you run effectively more copies.
Lands, MUD, Stax, and Miracles.
How does that make it better at wearing equipment or flying in the air from Elspeth, though?
If you read the post I was quoting, he made it sound like DRS couldn't do either of those things.
Also reading that post, seems that the point is that a single Arbor gives quite a bit more access to dudes to equip, not to mention having flash is very good with equipment in play. The point has little to do with DRS being poor at it, so much as just making the deck as a whole better at wearing equipment. It seems to me to be more a matter of personal taste in deckbuilding.
Lands, MUD, Stax, and Miracles.
It's not that he can't, it's just a rarity. The flash helps quite a bit with Thalias, removal, and whatnot since your opp may open themselves up. It also means your dead draws are more live.
If you think about it in terms of "Creature density", you have ~9 more live draws if you're dead on board (8 fetch, 1dryad, 2 gsz in my case; vs 2 drs I had in the list)
That's not to argue not doing that is wrong, it's just why it (IMO) makes equips better.
The Lotus list is mine. And I'm not sure which column this goes in, but the T8 seemed pretty non-representative: walking around, there were tons of fair decks in the room. So although combo seemed to over-perform against the field, there wasn't actually that many present. (I kind of think it was a pretty soft room, where competent players and linear combo decks will always do well.)
I'm not sure about the Arbor plan, but I do love boarding in Natural Order when slow fair decks are rampant. Progentius doesn't have a lot of answers and eats Stoneblade and Maverick alive.
That actually sounds like a really strong transformational plan against alot of decks. I might try that out at some point.
How do you guys deal with Ancient Grudge? My Delver opponents always seem to cantrip into it and force me to play fair. Should I play extra equipment in the MD or SB? Do I board out part of the Stoneforge package if I expect a lot of hate?
Referring to the art on Stasis:
Sounds like you're specifically talking either RUG or UBRg (grixis.) In theory, keeping them off Green mana is reasonable. Grixis normally has a single green land.
If it's Delver in general, you may just consider Loam in the side. It happens to be reasonable against BUG and the other midrangers you'll be fighting too as finding it is probably game even if you don't lock them out.
Weirder answers would be Meddling Mage; which is generally a good card.
Grafdigger's Cage shuts the good half of it down. DRS can eat it from the grave. Depends what you're looking for.
Of the the above, MMage seems the most reasonable as you may spam him for Combo/Lands anyway.
There are lots of matchups where I board out some stoneforges and an equipment or two, but delver is not typically one of them.
Protecting our equipment can be very powerful against Delver and control decks, but don't go overboard or fret too much if they do destroy one of your equipment. I haven't seen a lot of grudges but more wouldn't surprise me going forward. Decay has always been the card to worry about for equipment. I have brought back an old favorite, divert, as a one of in my board against decks that hate on the equipment (and frequently also have a ton of removal). Decays often happen without extra open mana, as people feel it is a safe play, so divert works regularly. Decay decks are also almost always creature decks so you regularly get maximum value, rather than just redirecting to a less important permanent you control. It is a weak card by legacy standards but very good at what it does. I wouldn't play more than one, but I like one a lot.
I think if you are bringing in grafdigger's cage against ancient grudge you are overboarding and fighting the wrong battle. MMage has some corner case value in fair matchups but it often needs to be set on the most likely removal spell left in the opponent's deck before you can hit a target of longer term interest, so again I think it is the wrong approach against delver decks which have many spells that kill creatures. Your Deathrite (if you splash black) can eat a grudge in the yard before it gets max value, and your counters should also help. I get that equipment is important but if you try too hard to protect it you will simply give up too much in other areas of the game. That is my general feeling on the subject anyway.
Actually yeah, forget what I said.
I was eyeing my diverts the other day when I was building and remembered that they also kill opposing TNN's (your opponent is targeting) and don't activate Leovold (same thing.)
If people start pushing more Hymns and 2+ mana cost spells I could see running diverts/misdirections. It doesn't solve the Ancient Grudge problem.. but if you get CA and tempo off of them not only nuking their own dude but requiring a second spell to get your equip, you're in a great spot.
That's not how Divert (or Misdirection) works, you still target Leovold and (fail to) target TNN with it.
If your opponent controls the spell/ you can divert misdirect to target their own tnn.
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He was trying to say that if your opponent is using a removal spell to kill one of your things, you can divert/misdirect back onto a tnn or leovold they control- without triggering Leo- because they still control the spell targeting their own tnn or Leo. I prolly explained it poorly in the last post.
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It is *really* hard not to write a snarky, trolly post.
If it's been four years since the release of a card and you still don't know how it works or what counters it, please just google it and click the first link.
Right, anyone got a hat I can eat?
I'm really surprised this has never come up before! I knew Redirect worked, but the word 'target' on Divert and Misdirection threw me off.
Went 2-1 at a local, 0-2 to a 4c Bant deck (leo), 2-0 against lands, 2-0 against Elves.
-15/2-
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Vendillion Clique
-7/2-
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Umezawa's JItte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Detention Sphere
-20/14-
2 Green sun's zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Moorland Haunt
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Savannah
1 Karakas
1 Forest
3 Wasteland
SB:
1 Mana Maze
2 Containment Priest
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Chill
1 Humility
1 Rest in Peace
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Phrexian Revoker
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4c Bant:
G1 - he lands DRS and I find no removal for an absurd amount of time. T2 Leo, T3 3cmc Gideon; I go Noble->QPM->KotR IIRC. I end up brainstorming, forgetting about Leo, and have to use KotR to fetch Karakas. This is alright, I get a Haunt and make spirits to hold him off and beat for three when he pusses out; but never find anything interesting (Elspeth, Equips, removal) and Gideon turning off KotR, DRS shrinking him, etc. makes it so I can't get anything done. I also goof and lose a KotR thinking he'd have one more +1 (probably thinking he'd fetch a wasteland and use it) and lose him. Lame.
G2 - I mull a bit, keep a tempo hand with KotR. I end up with 2x Noble, KotR (tapped for a reason I don't remember), and a Trop. I could drop an Elspeth or I can get him back to 1 land, 1 DRS, so I do that. I get ZP'd, Decayed, wasted. This game sucks and I hate it. I just needed to pull the trigger on Elspeth and I cannot remember why I didn't. Fuck me.
I really feel like G2 I just misplayed and he got the nuts. G1 I feel like I could've drawn a damn Swords, Equip, Elspeth, *something*, and instead stalled out on gay shit.
Lands:
G1 - I see Taiga and have Force. Just be belcher you son of a bitch. I dare you.
Turns out he then Diamonds, which I allow, then I daze or force a loam (next turn?) I go Trop-GSZ->Arbor, Tundra->Noble->QPM, and he's loaming away. I think I waste somewhere in here. He does a ghost quarter and sees me get a forest and loams into a wasteland. I get SFM, fetching SoFaI. I end up Waste+QPMing him back to low mana to gain tempo. He makes a Lage and I plow it. I then drop a KotR, attach a sword next turn, and beat for 11 a turn with Karakas ready to fetch. GG.
G2 - We both mull to 5. I keep Savannah, Plow Plow KotR, Force. Garbage. But I draw a RiP as my first card and decide not to play a land. He gives me a weird look but I know I need to get 2 mana at once and make him work for it. I draw into Noble (thank da lor') and Sav->Noble. He drops the waste and nails it as expected, but i get a brainstorm, get a wasteland, and get to play the rip the next turn; giving me a massive advantage. Noble->[SFM?]->Waste->KotR->Waste->Waste ends up keeping him on the back foot. Beautiful.
Elves:
G1 - A jitte flips out while he's cutting and I make a joke about how I'm storm and Jitte is my out for Elves. He starts with a Heritage Druid. How come every fucking time I joke about playing against Elves or Sneakshow or Miracles, it's the deck I joked about.
Anyway.. I have a Noble->SFM and do it. I force a Wirewood that would've turned on Heritage because I think I can get things going before he can [I have a daze for NO or something I think.] I end up slowly establishing with 2xSFM while wasting a cradle and maybe something else, get Jitte and Sword attached and because there's no symbiote he quickly loses his board and the match. I rub it in by giving the double-equipped SFM an Elspeth Flying 3/3 boost haha. He's hinting that his favorite crackers are Saltines.
G2 - I keep something awkward with Force + Daze + 2 Ponder + Containment Priest. I drop Priest to buy some time and draw a few wastelands. I force something dumb and accidentally pitch ponder. He decays priest, so I drop Scooze and start beating for 3 at a time. He drains me a bit, decays Jitte when I equip it (I think) and whatnot, but he's still at basically no cards and I have the ability to beat. The ponders find me another priest and then while we both sit there I draw another Force. He goes for a glimpse and I force it (against his empty board) after wasting a cradle, and he is salty. Salty like a cool breeze on the pacific while drinking a margarita...
..Speaking of..!
Meta tonight:
1 Storm
1 Elves
1 Patriot Control(?)
2 Infect
1 Reanimator/StifleNought hybrid
2 Burn
1 D&T
1 Pox
1 Nic Fit
2 Bant (me and that idiot som' bitch)
1 Sneakshow?
[my drink is kicking in and I'm missing ~5 decks]
So, not the biggest baddest report ever, but it was a good time. I think I'll swap that SoLaS and Bridge out. If I'm not gonna use bridge for Lands.. I may as well put a real card there. SoLaS seems meh; but it was a "hey maybe against D&T?" kinda card. Not sure what I want. Lands felt like I was playing on Expert mode. Some risky decisions really paid off. GSZ, Teeg, and Cage feel weird. I don't know why they never have before, but I think it's that when you're in blue, doing shitty things is dumb.
GSZ was good. Killed BSK. Ramped me a couple times. Got a.. Scooze to harass lands.
Didn't see Clique. Elspeth was almost good.
KotR wasted people. awesome.
I haven't read white-dude's reply about TNN yet cause I'm a bitch about internet drama, so I mean.. I'll do that in a sec so I can re-read my post and see how much of a dick I was haha. I gotta make another drink. If people have super-cool (or terrible) suggestions for the 2 sideboard slots go nuts. I think the main felt alright.
EDIT: No biggy whitefaces. I'm normally more of an ass than I need to be.
EDIT2: Savannah sucks and I hate it. I could use a basic island so I might do that.. I may go for a 4th Trop.
Is it imperative to play 8 mana dorks instead of let's say 7? I am contemplating to cut one hierarch and one jace just to allocate 2 ponder in the main. What are your opinion of adding additional cantrips to the main? (if we take Chris's MKM list as a reference).
I'd say yes, it is, games starting with a dork vs ones without are day and night. The deck has a pretty focused gameplan of turn one dork, turn two TNN or Leovold. The deck also leans on the dorks very heavily to support the weak manabase so cutting one makes you more vulnerable to wasteland and daze etc from clunky draws. Both DRS and to a slightly lesser extent Noble Hierarch (with TNN) have text in the late game too, so it's not like we have completely dead draws later either.
Ponder doesn't fit the decks curve very well I think, when I used to play a couple they were never cast until turn 4+. Fwiw Chris got the list from me and just made a couple of sb changes the day before mkm, so I can probably help with any questions on that. I realize I was contemplating adding two Ponders just a few pages back, but I've gone off the idea now, they were just generic placeholders / flex slots.
On another note, since the deck has evolved a lot since the beginning of the thread, what do others think of starting fresh? I can write, or help with, a primer.
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