I like the 4th SFM as a threat mainly because it costs 2 mana. My maindeck Blue count in this configuration is 18, which is enough for 4 Forces but is the minimum. So I don't feel its necessary to cut non-Blue cards for more Blue cards, but this could be done to make Forces even more reliable in game 1.
About sideboarding, my approach in combo matchups is to keep 3-4 SFM in and take 2-3 TNN out. SFM is more compact, enables you to leave mana up, and is a faster clock in conjunction with Sword of Fire and Ice. With all the other Blue cards I bring in against combo, I can maintain SFM with a 20+ Blue card count. In the past I have taken your approach of leaving in TNN and taking out the SFM package against combo, with a Planeswalker in the SB instead of SoFI. However, this felt clunky to me.
Running Macabre over Surgical was due to the fact that I confidently expected 0 Lands decks. Macabre is better against Reanimator and Dredge, and I don't bring in Surgical vs random non-GY decks anyway. Cage over RIP is purely a concession to Elves, one of our worst matchups.
I do play a 2nd Disenchant bear in the 75, but its a Rec Sage, not another QPM. I like Rec Sage here because it interacts more favorably with Show & Tell, and being able to leave a body behind after Shattering something is generally relevant.
Generally I favor hatebears in combo matchups, which is why I play Meddling Mage (maybe I've played too much Maverick...). They attack and allow you to shrug off Defense Grid/Xantid Swarm/Flusterstorm. 9 permission spells in the 75 feels like enough to me. I don't necessarily think Meddling Mage is the best hatebear, but the fact that it is a Blue hatebear is crucial for my sideboarding strategy.
Regarding Dismember over Path - your point about D&T and Elves is valid and Path can feel bad there. But Path has advantages vs Delver (your life total matters a lot), and decks with Marit Lage. I'll give Dismember a shot next time and see how I like it.
Felt the need to relive my good old days last night, so I threw together this pile of legacy-legal cards.
Went 3-1 beating Armageddon Stax, RUG Delver, and Junk. Lost two very quick games to Death's Shadow.
No Knights because I sold my foils a while back and never bought replacements. No Tarmogoyfs because I sold them a while back.
I used to do Moat + Elspeth but I can't find my Elspeth. Womp womp. An Elspeth'd Rhox War Monk is a slightly-worse Griselbrand.
Search for Azcanta was definitely just wrong. That should be Sylvan Library. That said, I never actually drew it, so I wasn't punished. Edric never saw the field, but I think I'd cut him as well.
I wanted a basic Forest a surprising amount of the time.
Rhox War Monk was a house. One player commented that it's more problematic than Batterskull (presumably because more cards in their deck can answer an artifact/creature). My best War Monk play was Supreme Verdict followed by a War Monk. Hard to race that when you blew your load clogging the board with creatures.
Nice to hear that the ol' pizza man isn't hopelessly dated.
I've found that basics kind of suck in GSZ + TNN Bant because your manabase is pulled in so many directions. However, they are useful enough against Blood Moon, B2B, Price of Progress, and Ghost Quarter that I still consider them worth playing. I usually play Forest + Island, but can see an argument for any other combo of two different basics.
I've been experimenting with this deck again.
Still not set on a list but been messing with Renegade Rallier and Ramunap Excavator as green sun targets. I like the idea of value so even if they are removed you got something out of them..
Ramunap has proven to be really good in the Lands matchup, esp since it can survive Punishing Fire.
Rallier can provide "ramp" since you can make an extra land drop via its ETB effect... I've also recurred Stoneforges and a Sylvan Library.
I agree that Knight hasn't been the powerhouse it usto be since TNN came on the scene... I went down to one copy and think of it more for its utility to fetch Wasteland/Karakas etc...
What do you guys think of Coiling Oracle? Its no Baleful Strix, but does provide card advantage/ramp, can be zenith'd for and is another target for Rallier... if anything its pitchable to Force.
Never really a dead draw; think I'll try it in place of Renegade Rallier
This one replaces reclamation sage. Whether you want this or pridemage or one of each will depend on what else you are doing and how much you think the life gain will be relevant based on the existing metagame.
So basically, it is a card I will make sure I have, but one I probably won't play often.
Also, with respect to excavator, I agree, that card is VERY good.
I was playing on cockatrice to test the deck out more.
I was drawing an additional card with Horizon canopy every single turn with ramanup excavator. That guy scooped on the spot.
Hi Banters,
I've been slowly building up a bant list in hope that I'll be getting back into legacy magic in the next couple months. Questions I've asked myself, and maybe you'll have good answers:
Is Force of Will a must have in the main board in this meta? (Are combo/prison decks investing in turn 1/uninteractive win cons? And if yes, are they present enough in the field to warrant the deck building constraint of running Force/enough blue to always have it online?)
Am I able to race/beat the current top threats? (Can I beat True-Name Nemesis? Gurmag Angler?)
Assuming I build my deck to beat top/common decks, do I still positioned well against the less common decks? (Do my answers apply to multiple angles of attack or are they too narrow? Will my threats be universally strong or will they fold to certain archetypes?)
I'll write up some ideas soon, just wanted to see if you all had any responses before I share my thoughts and embarrass myself.
I'd still like to play the full 4 Daze and may sub the FOWs for 3 Spell Pierce and 1 Blessed Alliance. I'll try to post a list later today. I just think the chances of having Force online is always going to be close to 1/3rd or less unless I really devote to a very very blue list.
I'd rather have a strong matchup against more fair lists at this time, as I don't feel I win the combo matchup game 1 anyways.
Hey everyone, new to Bant but played infect for 4 years. Just wondering what everyone’s thoughts are on Tireless Tracker with Kotr. This would be a high value GSZ version. Maybe cut the stoneforge for 4TNN, and other green goodies
I haven't settled on any sort of sideboard just yet, mainly because I'm trying to decide if it should include a package of blue cards to justify bringing in Force of Will in the sideboard.Creatures
3 Noble Heirarch
2 Knight Of The Reliquary
2 Vendilion Clique
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Birds Of Paradise
Spells
4 Green Sun'S Zenith
4 Swords To Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
Equipment
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
Planeswalkers
2 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
Lands
3 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Island
To hedge my chances against combo deck, I've decided to include Gaddock Teeg as a turn 2 GSZ target assuming I get a noble or birds turn one.
Knight is amazing, but I think since my chances are slimmer against combo/prison effects I prefer being likely to draw a Vendilion Clique, and I'm considering cutting one or both True-Name's for one or two more Cliques. The one of Goyf is to have a solid GSZ at X=2 if I'm desparate to start racing and maybe need to leave spell pierce up or if I'm in a spot where a Goyf might be a 4/5 or 5/6 while a Knight might only be a 2/2 or 3/3 for whatever reason (let's say my opponent has Leyline or something). Although I'm willing to consider this may be a mistake.
The two Jace's have felt great in testing, I think if I were to add another planeswalker it would be an Elspeth, Knight-Errant, not another Jace. He's amazing as a threat against control decks, but the creatures just feel much more important to get online rather than trying to focus my game plan entirely on his ult. Even just having him as an unsummon is incredibly powerful against other creature decks, especially things like Gurmag Angler, where they may not be able to cast it the second time around.
Still, I do feel the deck is just a step behind a lot of times and while it is incredibly fun and rewarding, I think it misses a few percent just by playing creatures that can be weak on their own. It feels like a Maverick deck without the prisony effect of Thalia, and maybe it's just a worse version of Maverick. But, I'm still feeling it out and I do enjoy it a lot. Not having Force hasn't felt bad at all, and Spell Pierce is probably an underplayed card in legacy, even now.
One last thing, the GSZ package feels incredible. Occasionally it's a turn too slow to beat really fast combo decks, but on the play or against opponents that stumble, it feels like I win most games I draw one.
In a GSZ build with no Forces main, a Teeg main is 100% correct.
If you're playing Knights, Karakas main is necessary. Its a versatile land that you want access to in game 1 against Lands, Sneak & Show, Reanimator, Turbo Depths, etc. Also gives you access to tricks with Vendilion Clique.
Birds isn't useful enough in Bant to justify playing over a 4th Hierarch. Hierarch taps for all your colors and is great with TNN or any beater. Sometimes Birds is nice as an evasive Equip carrier, but TNN and Clique do that too.
Thinking about throwing this list together for some testing, thoughts?
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
3 Wasteland
4 Nobel Hierarch
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Ramunap Excavator
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Bird of Paradise
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Daze
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Sylvan Library
I've brewed up a sideboard but I haven't settled on anything yet.
"The enemy is getting too close! Quick! Inflate the toad!"
That's a pretty standard list so it should be fine. I don't like birds in Bant and I think it would be better as another GSZ, Equipment, Ponder, etc. Even a Canopy would be nice with Ramunap.
In 2019 I think Jace, Library and Clique are all outclassed by TNN or Narset. I think powering out a T2 Narset in a GSZ/Ponder list is a good way to start a game.
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
Long time in this thread. I was playing bant after the banning of w6, but i've realized that every match, I'm just fighting against planeswalkers now.
So what we really need to do is shift this deck to be able to fight the cheap CMC planeswalkers, which I believe would be best to shift the white out for black colors...unfortunately, it won't be called bant anymore. But the cards are very similar.
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