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Thread: [Deck] Bant

  1. #21

    Re: [Deck] Bant Aggro and Pro Bant

    Quote Originally Posted by chokin View Post
    I think it was you who originally shot down Rafiq in some other post saying something about how your "bomb" being Bolt-able is really lackluster. And I agree for this deck.
    Was I? I don't remember that, but I'm flattered someone does.

    Allow me to change my opinion somewhat based on metagame considerations. Rafiq is probably an interesting sideboard card, but it's debatable as to whether or not he's better than other options. For one thing, he's not very good against Zoo, for obvious reasons. However, in the mirror he seems like he could be rather backbreaking, especially if you've got Vendillion Clique, Predator, or RWM. In the former two cases, he represents a huge amount of damage in the air, making it difficult to race with Progenitus if the opponent has taken any prior damage; in the latter case, he makes it virtually impossible to race because of the dramatic life swings in your favor (and RMW with a 4/5 body and double strike will almost certainly punch through any opposing Tarmogoyfs). He can be quite good as a surprise finisher against control, and at four mana he's not easy to EE. Finally, he seems better in a way against combo since he can win faster than Progenitus by allowing a preexisting Tarmogoyf to swing when he comes down for 8+, but it's somewhat of a moot point because you're less interested in firing off Natural Order than in just beating the stuffing out of the other guy as quickly as possible.

    Basically, he seems really good in the matchups where it won't take much work to protect him, if only because he wins Goyf wars, and wins them HARD. However, it's questionable whether you'd want him in the sideboard over Empyrial Archangel, which is better against Zoo and burn decks than Progenitus because it keeps you from getting burned out and has flying to mimic the unblockability of protection. In most cases, I don't think he's actively bad; he's just not good enough.

  2. #22

    Re: [Deck] Bant Aggro and Pro Bant

    Quote Originally Posted by mchainmail View Post
    I think Daze needs justification in this deck, especially because it seems to play differently than other variants.
    http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=30742
    Some times you need to play the role of the aggressor and without countertop that job becomes easier. Daze helps you play this role.


    If rarique sucks perhaps Loxodon Hierarch would be a good target as a 1 of in the SB. Any other 4 drop/5 dro ideas???

    Also I was wondering if anyone had experience with Dueling Grounds??? I admittedly have no experiance with the card but it seems to be a good 1of.

    Does anyone think wall of blossoms is good enough to cut something (say 4th pridemage) cause it sacs, digs, is a great late-game rip, and slows agro.

    Also I was wondering if anyone had experiance with Circle of Protection Red??? I admittedly have no experience with the card but it seems that the mana intensity would be a bit to much.

    I've also found that I can't win against enchantress I'm 0-3 in tourney with this deck. I've even debated running EE and tranquility in the board. I alo can't beat 43 land, any ideas?
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  3. #23
    The Courage Wolf
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    Re: [Deck] Bant Aggro and Pro Bant

    @aggro_zombies - I could be wrong. It was in the CounterTop thread somewhere. Yes, in the mirror or mirror-esque matches, Rafiq just pushes you over the top. He's your fourth 4cc finisher. You can lock the ground up with Goyfs and Monks and then drop him and start going nuts with an Exalted Double Striking RWM and start winning. They either take 8 or more to the face, or start losing board position. Just beware of STP.

    @that nice guy - Rafiq isn't all awful. My post may have been misleading. He just has a niche role. And Loxodon Hierarch is not very good in my opinion. Dueling Grounds is decent enough for the aggro match with all of the Exalted, but multiple copies do nothing, which kinda sucks. No to Wall of Blossoms if you ask me, simply because RWM and Goyf are the best walls that can also turn sideways. Why run CoP: Red when you could probably squeeze in Counterbalance? EE as a 2-3 of will help your Enchantress match. It also helps 43 lands, as it can nuke Exploration/Manabond and Moxen. Try to counter their Loam and Crypt it. Or respond to a Loam with a Crpyt.

    The most successful builds I've personally witnessed were Counterbalance builds. With a variety of 1-4cc spells, you bust the mirror match. That's something to think about when constructing.

  4. #24

    Re: [Deck] Bant Aggro and Pro Bant

    To clarify, I didn't bring up Rafiq just because he's a strong finisher.

    I brought up Rafiq because he's a strong finisher that you can both hardcast, or Natural Order for if you have Progenitus in hand and thus can't NO for Prog. Thus, this enables NO to be played as a 4 of.

    And in some situations even if you don't have Prog in hand, you're better off NOing for Rafiq and winning the game that very same turn rather than NOing for Progenitus and giving your opponent another turn.

    To sum up...
    Quote Originally Posted by Clark Kant View Post

    My build plays...

    4 Natural Order
    1 Rafiq of the Many
    1 Progenitus

    I have yet to see a good argument against this approach.

    Natural Order is an absolute bomb. On those feared occasions where I had a Progenitus in hand and no Brainstorm to shuffle it back into the library, I still won off the back of NOing for Rafiq of the Many which made my attack with either Goyf or RMW that turn absolutely massive and game swinging. It's pretty hard to lose when RMW gains you eight life while dealing eight damage, and Tarmogoyf deals an absurd 12 damage. There were many situations I was in where I opted to NO for Rafiq instead of Progentitus because that was actually the superior option in that case.

  5. #25

    Re: [Deck] Bant Aggro and Pro Bant

    Here's my build:

    // Lands
    2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
    3 [A] Tropical Island
    3 [R] Tundra
    4 [TE] Wasteland
    2 [ON] Windswept Heath
    2 [ON] Flooded Strand
    1 [MR] Plains (1)
    1 [ALA] Forest (3)
    1 [7E] Island (2)

    // Creatures
    4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
    4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
    4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
    3 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
    2 [DIS] Azorius Guildmage

    // Spells
    4 [AL] Force of Will
    4 [IA] Brainstorm
    4 [NE] Daze
    4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
    4 [A] Swords to Plowshares
    3 [DIS] Spell Snare
    1 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant

    // Sideboard
    SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
    SB: 2 [10E] Pithing Needle
    SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
    SB: 2 [IA] Hydroblast
    SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
    SB: 2 [CFX] Path to Exile
    SB: 2 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
    SB: 2 [LRW] Burrenton Forge-Tender


    Notable changes are lack of RWM and the addition of Guildmage, Elspeth, and more counters. I personally love drawing Guildmage and believe that Noble makes it playable here. Stifle on a stick and its tap ability are huge for this deck.

    This deck is more suited for my meta, as I don't see an overwhelming amount of Lightning Bolt. Though if I do I often just change the the Cliques to RWM. I play this as straight tempo, but have the Guildmages and Elspeth to give me reach. This deck can wreak havoc on CB decks, which I do enjoy.

    As far as this thread goes, I can see it going in at least 3 directions.

    -Tempo builds
    -NO builds
    -Aggro builds

  6. #26

    Re: [Deck] Bant Aggro and Pro Bant

    2009-09 ~ 2009-12 DTB Status
    1, CounterTop = 164 (Bant CounterTop + Bant NOProg CounterTop = 84)
    2, ANT = 155
    3, Tempo Threshold = 150
    4, Dredge = 140
    5, Merfolk = 115
    6, Goblin = 107
    7, Zoo = 78
    8, Faerie = 61
    9, Bant Aggro = 59

  7. #27

    Re: [Deck] Bant Aggro and Pro Bant

    Loam Lion
    w
    Creature - Cat Uncommon
    Loam Lion gets +1/+2 as long as you control a Forest.
    1/1

    I think we have a white kird in Bant Aggro, even not for fow.

  8. #28

    Re: [Deck] Bant Aggro and Pro Bant

    I don't like Loam Lion in this deck, because there are many better first turn plays (ponder,brainstorm,noble). But what wasn't previously posted i think that Sylvan library fits in - one or two copies. It provides mana free and repeatable way not to draw progenitus, is great card with fetches and best with active RWM, in my opinion.

  9. #29

    Re: [Deck] Bant Aggro and Pro Bant

    Just a few hours after my previous post, I found out that somebody has the same idea with Sylvan and won 65 people GPT:http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=31937.

  10. #30

    Re: [Deck] Bant Aggro and Pro Bant

    I can sum up some sylvan arguments: It is not that aggro, but it provides many options in this deck, and late game advantage. It costs 2, but i doubt somebody will spell snare it. It is good on itself, just brainstorming every turn for free, make sure you dont draw progenitus. In some combo matchups it can win you games, because your life doesnt really matter (depends on type of combo), but what do matter, are two or more additional cards. If needed it can turn your RWM into finkel. I know that deck is supposed to be more aggro, but i think that even an aggro deck needs cards like these. In my opinion it is better two drop than 2/3 tarmogoyf (depends), if you arent able to play turn two RWM or if you are able but you want to play around daze.

  11. #31

    Re: [Deck] Bant Aggro and Pro Bant

    Hey guys, I'm bringing Bant Aggro to a small tourney this weekend, I'm wondering if you guys could help me with sideboard strategy.

    I'm playing this list: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=31937

    I expect the field to be:

    Highly likely: Dragon Stompy, Enchantress, W Stax, ANT
    Likely: Merfolk, Goblin, Countertop, Burn
    Unlikely: Loam, Land, Zoo

    I'm wondering if you guys can help me decide on a SB, and which cards would be good for which MU.

    Much appreciated!

  12. #32
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    Re: [Deck] Bant Aggro and Pro Bant

    Maindeck Trygon Predators. Like, 3 or 4 of them. If you land one against Wstax it's basically a win, and enchantress has problems with them if they come out early. Against D-stompy, they smash 3spheres and chalices. That's basically the dream meta for trygon.
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  13. #33
    The Courage Wolf
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    Re: [Deck] Bant Aggro and Pro Bant

    3 or 4 TP is too much. Have 3 between your main and side. If you aren't running any artifacts or enchantments, Serenity is a really good card against Stax and it's ok against Enchantress. Just be sure to pack grave hate too to prevent Enchantress from recovering with Replenish or have a counter ready.

    Oh, and always pack at least 2 Krosan Grip. It helps against Humility, as Moat is killed by TP.

  14. #34

    Re: [Deck] Bant Aggro and Pro Bant

    Thanks for the info guys, it's very helpful.

    Btw, any tips on what I should side in against Burn, Goblin, and Dragon? I'd assume I should pack some anti-red stuff in the SB to hit them all, right?

  15. #35

    Re: [Deck] Bant Aggro and Pro Bant

    I would cut the 2 Loaming Shamans. Because they do nothing in your meta.

  16. #36
    Bluff the Lotus

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    Re: [Deck] Bant Aggro and Pro Bant

    Quote Originally Posted by alphacat View Post
    Thanks for the info guys, it's very helpful.

    Btw, any tips on what I should side in against Burn, Goblin, and Dragon? I'd assume I should pack some anti-red stuff in the SB to hit them all, right?
    I would pack some hydroblasts / Blue elemental blasts. I run 3 in my sideboard.

  17. #37

    Re: [Deck] Bant Aggro and Pro Bant

    Okej, I' m playing this list (not if I'm in the Netherlands because there's to much combo :P)

    Pro Aggro Bant:

    land:

    3 tundra
    3 tropical island
    1 savannah
    1 dryad arbor (I'm not really sure of this guy^^)
    1 plains
    1 forest
    1 island
    7 U-fetch

    Creatures:
    4 goyf
    2 qasali pridemage
    3 RWM
    2 vendilion clique (it owns so hard, first I was playing trygon predator/cold-eyed selkie but this one is better)
    4 noble hierarch
    1 rafiq of the many
    1 progenitus

    Spells:
    4 stp
    3 daze
    3 natural order
    2 sylvan library (mostly it doesn't get countered so)
    4 force of will
    2 ponder (replace wirh jitte??)
    4 brainstorm
    2 bant charm
    1 echoing truth

    Sideboard:
    2 ghotsly prison/cold-eyed selkie/trygon predator
    2 kitchen finks
    2 krosan grip
    3 relic of progenitus
    2 ethersworn canonist
    4 mindbreak trap (for killing combo :P)

    Now, the problem is that I'm in a Combo-Aggro meta so it's so hard somtimes...
    What should I do against Aggro (zoo and gobbs), maybe put jittes main, then I have an even better matchup?
    And against merfolk it's also alot of time very hard.
    So sideboard-help would be nice!

  18. #38

    Re: [Deck] Bant Aggro and Pro Bant

    Firespout is the best way against Merfolk/Zoo/Goblin, so I decide to add red color into Bant aggo, like SupermeBlue without coutertop.

    Firespout Bant (UGWR)

    4 Tarmogoyf
    4 Rhox War Monk
    2 Vendilion Clique
    2 Trygon Predator
    1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder

    4 Force of Will
    4 Daze
    4 Spell Snare

    4 Swords to Plowshares
    3 Firespout

    1 Island
    1 Forest
    1 Plains
    4 Flooded Strand
    4 Misty Rainforest
    3 Tropical Island
    3 Tundra
    3 Volcanic Island

  19. #39

    Re: [Deck] Bant Aggro and Pro Bant

    And what do u play sideboard, just stuff against combo :P??
    Post it plz

    If I would play with red, I would go counterbalance top^^

  20. #40
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    Re: [Deck] Bant Aggro and Pro Bant

    I am a bit surprised Stoneforge Mystic isn't discussed in this thread. This Worldwake card fits perfectly into the deck as it is another body, comes with cardadvantage and tutors the most broken equipment in every situation.

    Something like this works very well in a Bant Aggro deck without NO/Prog:

    2 Stoneforge Mystic
    1 Umezawa's Jitte
    1 Sword of Fire and Ice
    1 Sword of Light and Shadow

    The virtually 5 Equipment pieces transform every creature, even Noble Hierarch, into good beaters.
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