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Thread: [Primer] "Trisomy 21" / Bgw Loam Control

  1. #1
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    [Primer] "Trisomy 21" / Bgw Loam Control

    Hey guys,

    actually I think you hardly know me. I'm a Magic-player from the west of Germany and, after playing about two years of Legacy, I switched to Vintage at the beginning of this year. Before switching the format I played a deck, which I developed: „Graboids!“. Here is the primer for reverence: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=11215 . It's a Brg Loam Control-deck, which tries to screw the opponent with many landdestruction-spells. The problem of this deck was that it was really chunky. Aggro-decks just smashed your face in most cases and Combo-decks did that even more. The other Matchups were pretty even, but not good enough. Because of its slowlyness the deck lost to itself pretty much. After realizing that I put away this deck and almost quit Legacy to play Vintage.

    About a half year after quitting my best friend showed me a deck which abuses Spellweaver Helix with Raven's Crime and Time Warp to generate many turns (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=25376). After that I took up my old deck to play it with the Helix and I realized that I have to cut red because it wasn't that good. Sure, with red you got Burning Wish, but in almost all cases you want the card you wished for now and not after resolving one spell.
    With the release of Alara Reborn Maelstrom Pulse was played for a while, but I also tested Vindicate in the slot and in the end Vindicate proved to be better because it strengthened the game plan of the deck: Mana denial. It flexibility really made it stronger and imprinted in a Spellweaver Helix with Raven's Crime / Life from the Loam it was even better than Time Warp.

    This version made a few Top 8 in Iserlohn and Dülmen, two german tournaments with 50+ players, but the deck wasn't perfect at all. Two of my friends, who played the deck on the tournaments, said that Spellweaver Helix was okay or sometimes nice, but it was also win-more. I got the same results in my testings, so I cutted the Helix (because of form of a DNA-string it gave the deck its name: Trisomy 21 is the technical term for the Down-Syndrom; that's exactly what the deck does to the opponent ;)) and a few Raven's Crime.

    After we tweaked the list a little bit, we got two different versions: one that played Swords to Plowshares and one that played Entomb. We piloted the deck at the Iserlohn Wintercup; the one with Entomb went just average, the one with Swords made the second place out of 83 people (Swiss: 5-1-1 and T8 to the finals with price split). At this point I was shure that the deck was competative.

    So, here is the recent decklist:

    // Lands
    4 Barren Moor
    1 Cabal Pit
    2 Tranquil Thicket
    1 Polluted Delta
    3 Bayou
    2 Swamp
    1 Forest
    4 Wasteland
    2 Scrubland
    4 Verdant Catacombs

    // Creatures
    1 Gigapede

    // Spells
    2 Raven's Crime
    2 Swords to Plowshares
    4 Innocent Blood
    3 Sensei's Divining Top
    4 Mox Diamond
    1 Worm Harvest
    3 Engineered Explosives
    4 Vindicate
    4 Life from the Loam
    4 Smallpox
    4 Sinkhole

    // Sideboard
    SB: 3 Coffin Purge
    SB: 3 Pithing Needle
    SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
    SB: 2 Zuran Orb
    SB: 4 Duress


    Cardchoices

    Starting with the lands you may see that this deck is playing just five Fetchlands which is quite a low number for a Loam-based-deck, but for this deck it's the perfect number. If you would add a few Fetchlands, the manabase would become fragile.
    Cabal Pit is a great card against Aggrodecks because with Life from the Loam it is a recursive removal that could also handle creatures with toughtness up to 4.
    The Cycling-lands are a recursive drawengine which sets you far ahead your opponent in drawing cards.
    Against Wastelands from the opponent we are playing 2 Swamps and 1 Forest. The Plains isn't played because in this deck the Forest is more important to cast the Loam and to build up your game.

    A mainpart of this deck is disruption and destruction. On almost every non-land-card is written “destroy” or “sacrifice”, or they help to find them.
    The strategy of the deck is to screw the opponent. Sinkhole helps to follow the strategy, that’s why I think that this card doesn’t need any explanation.
    Smallpox on the other hand needs to be explained. Sure, it destroys lands, but it also your own. What makes the card so great is that it trades 3:1 in most cases because you sacrifice and discard a land, which can be brought back on your hand with Life from the Loam. And you don’t have to sacrifice a creature because you don’t need one until you almost have won. Smallpox is also great on the draw when the opponent starts with land, creature and you with land, Mox Diamond, Smallpox. These starts are pretty hard for the opponent because it rips apart their basics to build up their game.
    Vindicate is really flexible which makes it better than Maelstrom Pulse. Destroying a land is better than not finding a target for the Pulse because the only permanents on the opponents board in most cases are lands.
    Wasteland is the last card in the deck which destroys lands. With Life from the Loam you can recure it and screw the opponent even more and after all it’s still a land which produces mana that is needed.
    Innocent Blood stops creatures fast, so does Swords to Plowshares. The reason why the list just plays two of the Swords is that you need white to play it. You are just playing four green cards that you want to play early and six white, but fetching of green lands is essential for the deck. That’s why I think two Swords is the right number.
    Engineered Explosives handles many creatures and more important, it destroys Aether Vial which is quite a problem for Trisomy 21.

    To speed up our game a little bit we are playing Mox Diamonds which are also fixing the manabase. The Mox is good on the openinghand to e.g. play Smallpox at the first turn and rip apart the oppenents strategy, creatures and lands. It's also good against Wastelands to play Vindicates or Swords to Plowshares without a Scrubland.

    Sensei’s Divining Top is a card that let end many games in a draw because many people don’t know how to use it. The Top is a strong card in this deck; it helps to keep the pressure on your opponent by finding cards to hate his board. It's also an proactive element against Tormod's Crypt or Relic of Progenitus of this deck. When the opponent actives them to remove the graveyard, you can tap the Top and dredge the Loam to protect it.
    With Life in the grave you could also dig through your deck with the Top. If you don't like the first three cards, pay one mana, put the ability from the Top on the stack, in response tap it and dredge the Loam. Now you have got the Top as the first card and can dig two more cards. Furthermore you can stack the three cards in the order you would like to draw them.

    Another card of the deck is Raven's Crime which defeats Control-decks alone in most cases, but it also helps in many other matchups e.g. to let the Goyf Sligh-player discard his burnspells when he hasn't got any land on his board.

    The winconditions are Gigapede and Worm Harvest. The angry insect has got shroud, which makes it to an three-turn-clock in most cases. It also could kill Tarmogoyf and it is recurable.
    Worm Harvest is the other killcondition, but it could also be a defensive part of the deck e.g. against Aggro-decks.
    The best part of these to killconditions is that they aren't dead if the are in our graveyard.


    Alternative cardchoices

    I've playtested the deck often and tried a few cards in the maindeck. One of them was Entomb. Many of you may ask yourself why I don't play them. The answer is simple: It doesn't support the gameplan that much. In most cases you wish that Entombs where Swords to Plowshares because they are handling creatures which Entomb doesn't. Sure, Entomb puts you Life, Raven's Crime and even Wasteland and Cabal Pit in the graveyard, but it doesn't help much if your face is smashed by creatures in the first few turns.

    Other cards I tested were Crime/Punishment and Pernicious Deed over Engineered Explosives. The problem of both is that they are too slow. You want to handle Aether Vials and nasty creatures as fast as possible and it isn't possible with C/P and Deed. Deed can handle many creatures and other things with one activation, but in most cases there aren't enough creatures that Deed would be better than EE.

    Creatures like Tombstalker and Tarmogoyf are good cards, but they are bad in this deck. The good thing about our winconditions is that removal isn't useful against it and the opponent has got many dead cards in his deck. By playing non-shroud creatures the removal will become useful again and this is, in my eyes, bad. If you would ignore this negative aspect you have got also another one: deckspace. The space of the deck is pretty tight and you won't cut anything.


    Sideboard and alternative Sidebaord choices

    Coffin Purges are good against Survival and other Loam-decks. It isn't dead if you dredge it and can be played two times which is pretty good. In most situations it's better than Extirpate because Extirpate isn't useful when it got dredged in the graveyard.
    Pithing Needle stops two problematic cards: Aether Vial and Sensei's Divining Top (when the deck also plays Counterbalance). Furthermore it stops Planeswalker, but the two artifacts above are the main reason to run it.
    Engineered Plague helps in the Tribal-matchup.
    The Zuran Orb in the Sideboard helps against Burn, Goyfsligh and burnspells in the Tempothresh-build.
    Duress helps against combo, but I don't know if I just could ignore combo to help other matchups because Duress isn't affecting the combomatchup drastically.

    Against Combo you could run Chalice of the Void in the board, but it is also affecting yourself. Extirpate is also an option for the board if Ichorid is becoming more popular (which is the case in Germany...).
    I would advise against putting creatures in the Sideboard because it isn't good at all. The removal of the opponent isn't dead anymore and thats pretty bad.


    How to play

    The main goal of the deck is to hate the board of the opponent and build up your own pretty fast. After destroying all his lands, angry worms and insects beat the opponent to death. That's what the deck does and it does it pretty well.
    And what is with graveyard-hate? Sure, it isn't nice at all, but it doesn't really affect the deck. In the first turns it just destroys the board and in most cases Life from the Loam isn't needed to keep the board clean. By keep the board clean graveyard-hate isn't that damaging. By removing the Loam the deck becomes a little bit slower, but it still can do many things the opponent hates. This doesn't mean that graveyard-hate isn't winning against this deck, but you need much more hate against it than against outher Loam-decks and if the opponent is lucky and has much hate and the mana to cast it, than it is okay that he is winning :).
    Maybe you are asking yourself why we are just playing two cards out of 60 that let us win. The answer is: It's enough. It isn't unusual that the opponent is scooping and when he doesn't the two cards are enough, especially with Top and dredging.

    I want to point out that, if you want to play Trisomy on tournaments, you should master it, which isn't easy. Especially to play it fast is pretty hard.


    Matchups

    Combo:
    Bad. It's just bad. No comment ;).

    Goblins:
    The Vial, Lackey and hasty creatures are quite hard, especially the Vial. Preboard is the matchup in favor of Goblins, postboard in our favor.

    Tempothresh / Canadianthresh:
    Pre- and postboard really positive for us. We have got much more removal than they have got creatures. Just the burn sucks a little bit.

    NQG with Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top:
    Pre- and postboard positive. Just when the have got CB+Top AND enough mana it's getting hard. Here you have to play Explosives on 2 as fast as possible to prevent the lock.

    Survival incl. Bant:
    Positive, pre- and postboard. Survival needs mana... :).

    Merfolk:
    Preboard light bad to even for us. Postboard even to positive.

    Goyfsligh:
    The burn is pretty nasty, but the matchup is slightly positive for us, pre- and postboard.

    Landstill:
    Because in Germany Landstill isn't played anymore I couldn't test it enough. My results are a few month old and the deck was built differently.
    Pre- and postboard positive.

    Other Loamlists:
    Who resolves the Loam first is probably winning. We have got landdestruction to prevent it. The matchup is even to slightly positive for us; pre- and postboard.

    Controldecks like It's the Fear:
    Post- and preboard. Slightly positive for us. If the could play Intuition on EE, Academy Ruins and Loam, it's not that good, but still winable.

    Enchantress:
    Almost all things that they are doing are fair. The only thing that shouldn't happen is that they resolve an Replenish. Pre- and postboard positive.


    So, except for Goblins (or Elf-Survival) and Combo you would like to play against almost every deck. Especially the Aether Vial in the Goblin-decks is unfair... :).



    Top 8s
    - 5. out of 70 people: 09-13-2009, Iserlohn, Germany
    - 5. out of 57 people: 10-11-2009, Dülmen, Germany (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29459)
    - 7. out of 46 people: 11-07-2009, Italy (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=30215)
    - 2. out of 83 people: 11-14-2009, Iserlohn Legacy Cup, Germany (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=30495)
    - 6. out of 38 people: 11-15-2009, Iserlohn, Germany (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=31093)
    - 1. out of 45 people: 12-20-2009, Dülmen, Germany (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=30796)
    - Top 8 out of 65 people: 01-10-2010 GPT Eindhofen, Netherlands [lost the first round in the Top 8 to ANT] (http://forum.benelegacy.nl/viewtopic.php?p=48930#p48930)
    - Split in the finals out of 37 people: 01-16-2010 GPT Düsseldorf, Germany (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=31748 )



    This is just a small primer on the deck (the german one was even double of that size). I hope you enjoyed it and looked over a few mistakes I made.
    In the end I would like to thank my team that were testdummies. Thanks :).


    PS.: All the Top 8's of the deck aren't on deckcheck, maybe I'll place them there in time. Furthermore I recognized that even in Italy (?) people are playing the deck: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=30215
    I'm honored, thanks :).


    Brot_Ohne_Kruste
    Last edited by Brot_Ohne_Kruste; 01-30-2010 at 10:22 AM.

  2. #2
    crwn thy frnicatr
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    Re: [Primer] "Trisomy 21" / Bgw Loam Control

    Well, that's a very nice Primer for an awesome deck!

    But I think you muddled your list a little bit, because you forgot the 3 Barren Moor. You really should add them. ;D

    After a little playtesting I've to admit that the deck is even stronger than I thought. Up until now I ran the following list:

    // Lands
    1 Cabal Pit
    1 Bloodstained Mire
    1 Forest
    2 Tranquil Thicket
    2 Scrubland
    2 Swamp
    3 Bayou
    4 Wasteland
    4 Barren Moor
    4 Verdant Catacombs

    // Creatures
    1 Gigapede

    // Spells
    1 Worm Harvest
    2 Raven's Crime
    2 Swords to Plowshares
    3 Engineered Explosives
    3 Sensei's Divining Top
    4 Vindicate
    4 Life from the Loam
    4 Smallpox
    4 Sinkhole
    4 Mox Diamond
    4 Innocent Blood

    // Sideboard
    SB: 3 Engineered Plague
    SB: 3 Duress
    SB: 2 Coffin Purge
    SB: 2 Pithing Needle
    SB: 2 Zuran Orb
    SB: 2 Extirpate
    SB: 1 Sadistic Sacrament

    After the first playtesting I would just run your manabase, because you really, really need the playset Bayou. I was to slow with 4 Moors way to often. You want to see them when you have Loam online or in the first turn if you're on the play, but elsewhere they are bad.

    I also will change the sideboard. With the current one you couldn't stand a chance against combo and I'm unwilling to completely give up on that matchup. But the question is what should be in there and in which slot? After testing, I feel you don't really need the Sacrament/Extirpates.
    Sacrament as a one-of is to slow against Combo, even with Duress. I think I will test something like CotV (any other suggestions?) in the slot of Sacrament/Extirpate because these are the choices I was not happy with.

    These are my first impressions with this deck.
    Last edited by Dark Zero; 03-11-2010 at 04:41 AM.

  3. #3
    They call me a slob, but I do my job...
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    Re: [Primer] "Trisomy 21" / Bgw Loam Control

    We were already discussing your list a bit in the Pox thread. It looks very similar in it's mechanics to some Loam-Pox lists people (including me) are trying lately, yet more "extreme". I'm very interested in it, and plan to test it in the future.

    For the moment I have a few questions/remarks:
    • You only have two win conditions, and, although they're pretty fast when they come online, you will often leave plenty of time to your opponent to recover from your initial disruption before finding one. This could be one of the reasons why you have such a bad combo mathcup: you can't back up your destruction with a fast enough clock
    • Again on the win-con: they're bot graveyard dependent, as the loam engine is. You said it's not a big problem, can you elaborate a bit? Could it be possible to add some factories, maybe in place of the cabal pit and one or two Moor/Thicket?
    • Don't you miss some turn one targeted discard like duress/thoughtseize? It looks like you want to clear the way to get your engine going
    • Have you considered the addition of Pernicious deed? I know that the worms and moxen are not good friends with deed, but it's a really powerful tool, and you can always make more worms, can't you?


    Anyways, congrats for the result and for the good job!

  4. #4

    Re: [Primer] "Trisomy 21" / Bgw Loam Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Cthuloo View Post
    We were already discussing your list a bit in the Pox thread. It looks very similar in it's mechanics to some Loam-Pox lists people (including me) are trying lately, yet more "extreme". I'm very interested in it, and plan to test it in the future.

    For the moment I have a few questions/remarks:
    • You only have two win conditions, and, although they're pretty fast when they come online, you will often leave plenty of time to your opponent to recover from your initial disruption before finding one. This could be one of the reasons why you have such a bad combo mathcup: you can't back up your destruction with a fast enough clock
    • Again on the win-con: they're bot graveyard dependent, as the loam engine is. You said it's not a big problem, can you elaborate a bit? Could it be possible to add some factories, maybe in place of the cabal pit and one or two Moor/Thicket?
    • Don't you miss some turn one targeted discard like duress/thoughtseize? It looks like you want to clear the way to get your engine going
    • Have you considered the addition of Pernicious deed? I know that the worms and moxen are not good friends with deed, but it's a really powerful tool, and you can always make more worms, can't you?


    Anyways, congrats for the result and for the good job!
    Yeah exactly I am also interested in exactly the same question and would like to elaborate this further o come down to specific card choices. BTW I like my bread with crust ;) what an odd nickname ;)

    @ Cthuloo: I think he wrote about Perniciouis Deed and that you picked EE over it although I would like to question if that is really better because PD just wipes the board more thoroughly than EE does.

    But let my go step by step.

    Colors:
    We have been discussing Bg Loam Pox so far in the Pox thread. Now we find that Bgw Loam Control or Pox whatever this archetype might be called on a general level is having succes so we discuss it in a seperate thread. I understand that the w splash is mainly for Vindicate and secondly for StoP. I appreciate the power of both cards especially Vindicate and at the same time have to question it since it weakens your manabase a great deal. You tried like not to weaken it to much considering the low amount of BW duals you play but you weaken your gameplan if your opponent manages to cut you from w. so either way palying more BW duals or less is a dangerious road to go. Did you feel adding w was worse the sacrifice in the end? With just Bg you still would have Pulse and more black removal instead of StoP (which I know is inferior but anyhow substitutions are available).

    Mox:
    There was always a discussion if lists should add Mox or not. I think we agree that Mox CAN be played in this deck and also is Good in this deck but the questions is if 4 more spells are even better and they outclass the additional speed Mox can provide. I understand that in a 3 color build a Mox is even better than in just a Bg build but anyhow I would be interested if the quetsion also occured to you to add 4 more spells instead of Mox?

    SDT:
    This is like the discussion about the Mox Diamonds. I confirm that this is good in this deck because it allows sick draw actions and more favorable dredges. On the other hand playing Moxes AND SDT makes 7 cards that do nothing on their own and my question is if this is really worse the slots or if you should just play less or just one full set of either Moxes or SDT or if it has been considered using up a lot of space in the deck? How do you think about it?

    Win Conditions:
    A lot of different win conditions have been discussioned in the Pox thread for Loam Pox. I would really like to go through them and learn what your own thought have been on them or if. I also made the experience with my Bg list playing some more wincondition and 1 Entomb that it sometimes is hard to come up with a wincondition before your opponent recovers from your hate. As you wrote in the primer I especially remember one game where Replenish ... ah well I wont recall that one ;) .. anyway so Cuthloo questions stands and I would like to detail it. I already read your doubts about Tombstalker and I have to agree that I didn't include it i my builds at first.

    But what do you think about the classic Nether Spirit?

    What about Tomb of Urami, Mishra or Gargoyle castle to increase threat density

    What about other choices like Garruk, Kitchen Finks, Ob Nixilis or Witness?

    How do you like Syphon Life?

    Toolbox:

    What about Toolbox approaches like Volrath Strongehold with witness ? I know I have discarded this idea myself for being too fancy but in any case I would like to learn if you considered it yourself and found out the same or had other reasons.

    You alread wrote about Entomb that it sounded nice on paper but in tournaments it didn't prove to be valuable enough. Perhaps you could eleborate on that again.

    Removal and Sweepers:

    I think the main difference is using EE which is so much stronger in a 3 color build than in two colors. Pernicious Deed is definitely better in Bg I would presume and I am still unsure it is worse at 3 colors but EE definitely is better in 3 than in 2 colors. I am still wondering about the argument that EE is faster. It is only faster if you go for low CC targets because you do not need 3 Mana. For the full color approach it is as expensive and needs 3 Mana as I said. Could you point out where this was more relevant by matchup or by your personal experience?

    Thats all I can think of now but I think it is already enough for one post ;) Thanks in advance and for that great primer!

  5. #5
    They call me a slob, but I do my job...
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    Re: [Primer] "Trisomy 21" / Bgw Loam Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Nekrataal View Post
    @ Cthuloo: I think he wrote about Perniciouis Deed and that you picked EE over it although I would like to question if that is really better because PD just wipes the board more thoroughly than EE does.
    You're right, for some strange reason I skipped those lines of the primer...

    However, I substantially agree with what you say later:

    Quote Originally Posted by Nekrataal View Post
    Removal and Sweepers:

    I think the main difference is using EE which is so much stronger in a 3 color build than in two colors. Pernicious Deed is definitely better in Bg I would presume and I am still unsure it is worse at 3 colors but EE definitely is better in 3 than in 2 colors. I am still wondering about the argument that EE is faster. It is only faster if you go for low CC targets because you do not need 3 Mana. For the full color approach it is as expensive and needs 3 Mana as I said. Could you point out where this was more relevant by matchup or by your personal experience?

  6. #6

    Re: [Primer] "Trisomy 21" / Bgw Loam Control

    Just to drop my 2 cents here. Deed is hella slow and explosives shines in the Zoo matchup and the Dredge matchup, both wich don't look so hot unless you got the nuts.

  7. #7

    Re: [Primer] "Trisomy 21" / Bgw Loam Control

    Deed is always 1 mana slower than EE. I don't think that justifies calling it "hella slow" while EE is acceptable. Sure, 1 mana is important, but I think the ability to completely wipe out Zoo's creatures is more important.

  8. #8
    They call me a slob, but I do my job...
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    Re: [Primer] "Trisomy 21" / Bgw Loam Control

    Quote Originally Posted by FieryBalrog View Post
    Deed is always 1 mana slower than EE. I don't think that justifies calling it "hella slow" while EE is acceptable. Sure, 1 mana is important, but I think the ability to completely wipe out Zoo's creatures is more important.
    I agree. Explosives can't deal with goyf and nacatl at the same time, and deed is even more valuable in the Goblin and Merfolk matchup, were the cc of the creatures spreads between one and three (or even 4 or 5 for Goblin). Usually it's worth to take a few point damage more to wipe the complete board, and this deck already plays 4 smallpox and 4 innocent blood to sustain the initial assault, not to mention that deed can be easily online on turn 3 with the help of a mox.

  9. #9
    Taobotmox

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    Re: [Primer] "Trisomy 21" / Bgw Loam Control

    I think the list is quite similar to the very old deck dirt by finn. The name "dirt" is also more appropiate because calling a deck after a genetic disease is stupid, will get you into all kinds of discussions that distract from the deck and maybe even get you into trouble in a tourney if you write it on your sheet.

  10. #10
    The mad statistician
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    Re: [Primer] "Trisomy 21" / Bgw Loam Control

    I enjoyed reading the primer. Thank you for the intelligent words on your deck. A few observations on the deck.

    1. I was shocked to see no targeted discard in the list (Cthuloo made this comment already). Unless you draw a Mox, you are likely to have no turn one plays. Wouldn't maindeck Duress and Thoughtseize smooth out your curve a bit, giving you a nice turn one discard spell?

    2. Maybe I am wrong, but your Dredge matchup looks unwinnable. You have only 2 instant speed removal spells (Swords), which I admit are good in the Dredge matchup. But after that, the deck goes downhill like a stone. Vindicate and Innocent Blood are going to be next to useless in the matchup, especially at sorcery speed. You have no way of getting rid of Bridge in their yard because you only play 3 creatures. Explosives will buy you some time if cast early enough, but this seems like it would only prolong the inevitable.
    Your sideboard also lacks solid answers. If Dredge can play through Crypt, Leyline, and Relic, it can unquestionably get through Coffin Purge.
    This is particularly problematic owing to the popularity of Dredge in recent tournaments. At the SCG 10K (one of the only tournaments we have full data for, not just the top 8-16), it was the most played deck throughout the day.
    Even worse is you have no clock that Ichorid will care about. You will be playing defense for the whole game. as anyone that has played against Dredge can tell you, that is a doomed proposition.

    I do not mean to sound overly harsh or critical, but I am very worried about this deck's dredge matchup. It might be too generalizing to say this, but I cannot imagine this deck winning a game 1. Maybe a game 2 could be salvaged off of some good draws, but it seems that this deck would almost always fold the Dredge matchup. Am I mistaken in my appraisal? Have I missed some interaction or strategy?

    -ktkenshinx

  11. #11
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    Re: [Primer] "Trisomy 21" / Bgw Loam Control

    Quote Originally Posted by ktkenshinx View Post
    2. Maybe I am wrong, but your Dredge matchup looks unwinnable. You have only 2 instant speed removal spells (Swords), which I admit are good in the Dredge matchup. But after that, the deck goes downhill like a stone. Vindicate and Innocent Blood are going to be next to useless in the matchup, especially at sorcery speed. You have no way of getting rid of Bridge in their yard because you only play 3 creatures. Explosives will buy you some time if cast early enough, but this seems like it would only prolong the inevitable.
    Your sideboard also lacks solid answers. If Dredge can play through Crypt, Leyline, and Relic, it can unquestionably get through Coffin Purge.
    This is particularly problematic owing to the popularity of Dredge in recent tournaments. At the SCG 10K (one of the only tournaments we have full data for, not just the top 8-16), it was the most played deck throughout the day.
    Even worse is you have no clock that Ichorid will care about. You will be playing defense for the whole game. as anyone that has played against Dredge can tell you, that is a doomed proposition.

    I do not mean to sound overly harsh or critical, but I am very worried about this deck's dredge matchup. It might be too generalizing to say this, but I cannot imagine this deck winning a game 1. Maybe a game 2 could be salvaged off of some good draws, but it seems that this deck would almost always fold the Dredge matchup. Am I mistaken in my appraisal? Have I missed some interaction or strategy?
    Waiting for a more precise answer from Brot_Ohne_Kruste, from my experience with Bg Loam Pox you are definitely correct. I used to run a lot of dedicated hate in the sideboard to overcome the problem. From my experience you need at least four slots (if you already run plague in the board).

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    Re: [Primer] "Trisomy 21" / Bgw Loam Control

    I really enjoyed the post. Since threat density seems to be a recurring problem that people bring up, what about adding in Bloodghast? It works well with Loam since you want it to go to the graveyard and you should always have lands to play to bring him back if you need to kill him with EE or Deed if it is added.

  13. #13
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    Re: [Primer] "Trisomy 21" / Bgw Loam Control

    I like this deck, it is quite interesting. I tried to get Loam/Smallpox working but never found a good balance. This deck could SERIOUSLY benefit by running Entomb and a single Nether Spirit. Entomb finds all your win cons, Loam, or whetever land you need at the time. My suggestion would be to do this:
    -1 Life From the Loam
    -1 Raven's Crime
    -1 Sinkhole
    -1 Engineered Explosives
    +3 Entomb
    +1 Nether Spirit

    Easier way to find you win cons, is never a dead card (in fact it is great at baiting a Crypt/Relic), and will contribute to the speed and consistency of the deck. Garden/Lands! decks use Gamble as a universal tutor which greatly contributes to consistency, this is what Entomb could do for this deck!
    "I just shot Marvin in the face!"
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  14. #14

    Re: [Primer] "Trisomy 21" / Bgw Loam Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction View Post
    I like this deck, it is quite interesting. I tried to get Loam/Smallpox working but never found a good balance. This deck could SERIOUSLY benefit by running Entomb and a single Nether Spirit. Entomb finds all your win cons, Loam, or whetever land you need at the time. My suggestion would be to do this:
    -1 Life From the Loam
    -1 Raven's Crime
    -1 Sinkhole
    -1 Engineered Explosives
    +3 Entomb
    +1 Nether Spirit

    Easier way to find you win cons, is never a dead card (in fact it is great at baiting a Crypt/Relic), and will contribute to the speed and consistency of the deck. Garden/Lands! decks use Gamble as a universal tutor which greatly contributes to consistency, this is what Entomb could do for this deck!
    I agree with you on the point that some slots are dispensable. I do not agree on the Entomb part. I also favor Entomb but the argument in the primer was it is worse than the list with StoP. I am with you regarding Nether Spirit. Maybe one should be added. I at least did it for my current build I did on basis of the Liste from Brot_ohne_Kruste.


    Quote Originally Posted by dirtyapes View Post
    I really enjoyed the post. Since threat density seems to be a recurring problem that people bring up, what about adding in Bloodghast? It works well with Loam since you want it to go to the graveyard and you should always have lands to play to bring him back if you need to kill him with EE or Deed if it is added.
    That has been discussed in the Pox thread already. Not blocking is a serious issue with Bloodghast since this is not a Aggro deck. From the mechanism part it would fit in just wonderfully but unfortunately it doesn't.


    So this will be my updated Loam Pox list for testing with friends today. Brackets indicate the changes to the list from Brot_ohne_Kruste. Intention was to have more threat diversity and density to win the game more quickly and slightly more discard. I therefore lowered the Loam engine parts (Cycling lands, Loam, SDT):

    // Lands (24): 4 lands out, 4 other lands in
    1 Cabal Pit
    1 Tranquil Thicket (-1)
    2 Barren Moor (-1)
    0 Polluted Delta (-1)
    4 Bayou
    2 Swamp
    1 Forest
    3 Wasteland (-1)
    2 Scrubland
    4 Verdant Catacombs
    2 Mishra's Factory (+2)
    2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth (+2)

    // Creatures (2): one more Nether Spirit
    1 Gigapede
    1 Nether Spirit (+1)

    // Spells (34)
    1 Raven's Crime (-1)
    1 Syphon Life (+1)
    0 Swords to Plowshares (-2, altough I would consider them SB)
    4 Innocent Blood
    2 Sensei's Divining Top (-1)
    4 Mox Diamond
    1 Worm Harvest
    0 Engineered Explosives (-3, still like Deed, could be SB options though)
    3 Pernicious Deed
    4 Vindicate
    3 Life from the Loam (-1)
    4 Smallpox
    4 Sinkhole
    3 Hymn to Tourach (great also for the land destruction part)

    // Sideboard (
    SB: 0 Coffin Purge (-3)
    SB: 0 Pithing Needle (-3, playing Grip instead)
    SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
    SB: 0 Zuran Orb (-2, I think this is to GY dependend)
    SB: 0 Duress (Though nice it doesn't help much after boarding)
    SB: 3 Krosan Grip
    SB: 2 Extirpate (This is great for the LD part since it can extirpate duals)
    SB: 3 Ghostly Prison
    SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
    SB: 2 Kitchen Finks

    As has been said before GY hate is not that bad against this deck, since you can board some GY depend Winconditions out for G2 and it still wirks even if your GY is not a source of resources although such a situation has to be handled for the long run. IN my SB choices I am more worried about Aggro, Thresh and Dredge. Krosan Grip is an answer to GY hate and CBTop, Extirpates take care of duplicates to this hate cards. Prison and Finks are directed for Aggro. Cypts, Prison + Extirpate help in the Dredge matchup. Storm Combo, Belcher is just auto loss.

  15. #15
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    Re: [Primer] "Trisomy 21" / Bgw Loam Control

    @ Nekrataal: I really like your changes (on paper at least). I'm with you particularly on the extra win conditions and the Hymns. In fact the deck looks a lot like my last Bg pox version.

    I will consider adding Nihiliths to the board in place of the finks as an alternative fast win con non grave dependant. However good testing! Tells us how it went.

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    Re: [Primer] "Trisomy 21" / Bgw Loam Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Zero View Post
    Well, that's a very nice Primer for an awesome deck!

    But I think you muddled your list a little bit, because you forgot the 3 Barren Moor. You really should add them. ;D

    After a little playtesting I've to admit that the deck is even stronger than I thought. Up until now I ran the following list:

    // Lands
    1 Cabal Pit
    1 Bloodstained Mire
    1 Forest
    2 Tranquil Thicket
    2 Scrubland
    2 Swamp
    3 Bayou
    4 Wasteland
    4 Barren Moor
    4 Verdant Catacombs

    // Creatures
    1 Gigapede

    // Spells
    1 Worm Harvest
    2 Raven's Crime
    2 Swords to Plowshares
    3 Engineered Explosives
    3 Sensei's Divining Top
    4 Vindicate
    4 Life from the Loam
    4 Smallpox
    4 Sinkhole
    4 Mox Diamond
    4 Innocent Blood

    // Sideboard
    SB: 3 Engineered Plague
    SB: 3 Duress
    SB: 2 Coffin Purge
    SB: 2 Pithing Needle
    SB: 2 Zuran Orb
    SB: 2 Extirpate
    SB: 1 Sadistic Sacrament

    After the first playtesting I would just ran your manabase, because you really, really need the playset Bayou. I was to slow with 4 Moors way to often. You want to see them when you have Loam online or in the first turn if you're on the play, but elsewhere they are bad.

    I also will change the sideboard. With the current one you couldn't stand a chance against combo and I'm unwilling to completely give up on that matchup. But the question is what should be in there and in which slot? After testing, I feel you don't really need the Sacrament/Extirpates.
    Sacrament as a one-of is to slow against Combo, even with Duress. I think I will test something like CotV (any other suggestions?) in the slot of Sacrament/Extirpate because these are the choices I was not happy with.

    These are my first impressions with this deck.
    Yeah, I forgot them, thanks :).

    You're right, last time I tested the 4th Barren Moor was pretty weak, I would've rather played a 4th Bayou. I'll test it.

    Yeah, the Sideboard is, what needs work I think. It isn't optimal at all. Your SB above was built in the last minutes before the tournament started, so it's really random ;). I think Chalice is really a good card, that'll help in many matchups. I'll test that too.


    * You only have two win conditions, and, although they're pretty fast when they come online, you will often leave plenty of time to your opponent to recover from your initial disruption before finding one. This could be one of the reasons why you have such a bad combo mathcup: you can't back up your destruction with a fast enough clock
    * Again on the win-con: they're bot graveyard dependent, as the loam engine is. You said it's not a big problem, can you elaborate a bit? Could it be possible to add some factories, maybe in place of the cabal pit and one or two Moor/Thicket?
    * Don't you miss some turn one targeted discard like duress/thoughtseize? It looks like you want to clear the way to get your engine going
    * Have you considered the addition of Pernicious deed? I know that the worms and moxen are not good friends with deed, but it's a really powerful tool, and you can always make more worms, can't you?
    - With 16 landdestruction-spells, 4 of them recoverable, it's not often that the opponent could recover that fast. You are right, the clock need some time to come online, but it's worth it. In many cases the opponent scoops, that's our wincondition #3 :D. I don't know, even with a faster clock, the combo-matchup should still be really bad.

    - Many people are removing the Life from the Loam, which is okay and necessary, but not good at all because there is a point in the game where they are without lands or handcards or both and at this point you can overwhelm them with your two killconditions. The good thing is, that you're dredging the winconditions in the lategame in most cases and then you are winning. That's it. People are removing the wrong cards, but it's the best thing they can do.

    - I've tested the Factories and even Treetop Village. The Factories aren't that good because the produce colorless mana and the Village comes into play tapped. Furthermore the both could be sworded, which is really bad. I'd rather play Gargoyle Castle. In this case I would never cut the Cabal Pit, it's just too good. I would rather take one cycling-land out.

    - I've never missed discard-spells like Duress or Thoughtseize. Sure, you want to clear your way, but not to get your engine going, but rather to completely lock out your opponent without lands. The deck is reactive, it just handles things that are coming down and it doesn't need to handle things in the opponent's hand. Of course it would improve the combo-matchup, but it would also weaken all other matchups I think.

    - I've played 2-3 Deeds in the Maindeck for quite a long time. It's powerfull, no doubt, but the Explosives are faster and that's really important to win many matchups. In the Goblin-matchup e.g. it's necessary to handle a first turn Aether Vial as fast as possible. This card just destroys you because the deck could still produce creatures without any land in play.
    In Trisomy EE is in most cases a one-permanent-removal because all other permanents are destroyed pretty fast. It's high flexibility makes it really usefull for this deck.


    SDT:
    This is like the discussion about the Mox Diamonds. I confirm that this is good in this deck because it allows sick draw actions and more favorable dredges. On the other hand playing Moxes AND SDT makes 7 cards that do nothing on their own and my question is if this is really worse the slots or if you should just play less or just one full set of either Moxes or SDT or if it has been considered using up a lot of space in the deck? How do you think about it?
    I'd never ever cut one Top except for sideboarding. They're too strong to not play them. As a Top resolves you win most of the games (against non-combo-, non-aggro-decks) because provides you card quality and improves your dredges.
    As you stated, Mox Diamond is the weakest card in the deck, but unfortunately I think that it is necessary to run it. It's fixing the manabase and speeds up the deck, which is needed.


    But what do you think about the classic Nether Spirit?

    What about Tomb of Urami, Mishra or Gargoyle castle to increase threat density

    What about other choices like Garruk, Kitchen Finks, Ob Nixilis or Witness?

    How do you like Syphon Life?
    The problem of Nether Spirit is that it is in most cases just a bad wall. It can be sworded which is another negative aspect. In this deck I hate to play threats that can be handled really quick. I've played it in the SB with 3 Entombs Main. I boarded it in, but it was just bad. I'd rather sworded the opponents creature.

    Tomb of Urami can be handled too fast and it destroys your manabase. I'd rather play Gargoyle Castle, in my eyes it's better. As for Mishra, see above ;).

    I've tested Garruk / Elspeth, Kitchen Finks and Witness. All of them got one big problem: in your graveyard they are more then useless. The same goes with Ob Nixilis. It also costs 5 mana, which is high and makes it bad, because it can be handled. Yeah, I know, I have the fear that all threat can be handled, but when you are playing a deck with such a low threat density, you have to play threats that are bulletproofed :).

    I have tested Syphon Life in Graboids. At the first I thought it was really good, but it turned out that it was really bad, because it was too slow; even for this deck.


    What about Toolbox approaches like Volrath Strongehold with witness ? I know I have discarded this idea myself for being too fancy but in any case I would like to learn if you considered it yourself and found out the same or had other reasons.

    You alread wrote about Entomb that it sounded nice on paper but in tournaments it didn't prove to be valuable enough. Perhaps you could eleborate on that again.
    Witness + Stronghold: I've tested it in Graboids, it wasn't good at all. The Witness was just a chumpblocker in most cases. In it's spot I'd rather play the Finks.

    As for Entomb it has got following problem: What does it do, if creatures are smashing your face in turn 2 and 3? Right, nothing. You can Entomb for Life, but it doesn't handle creatures. Thats a big problem, you have to handle all creatures fast and doesn't kill them. Even Entomb on Nether Spirit is not, what you want. With the Spirit you can just handle one creature in most cases. After all the removal density is increased by playing the Swords.


    I think the main difference is using EE which is so much stronger in a 3 color build than in two colors. Pernicious Deed is definitely better in Bg I would presume and I am still unsure it is worse at 3 colors but EE definitely is better in 3 than in 2 colors. I am still wondering about the argument that EE is faster. It is only faster if you go for low CC targets because you do not need 3 Mana. For the full color approach it is as expensive and needs 3 Mana as I said. Could you point out where this was more relevant by matchup or by your personal experience?
    In many cases EE blows up permanents with cc 1 or 2. If you want to activate it in one turn, you have to pay three mana; that are the manacost of Deed. EE is helpful by destroying Aether Vial and fast creatures as fast as possible and in the lategame to destroy more permanents. But the main reason why it is played over Deed is, that you have to activate it on turn two or three to survive against aggro. It's all about the speed :). Furthermore it handles Planeswalker ;).


    2. Maybe I am wrong, but your Dredge matchup looks unwinnable. You have only 2 instant speed removal spells (Swords), which I admit are good in the Dredge matchup. But after that, the deck goes downhill like a stone. Vindicate and Innocent Blood are going to be next to useless in the matchup, especially at sorcery speed. You have no way of getting rid of Bridge in their yard because you only play 3 creatures. Explosives will buy you some time if cast early enough, but this seems like it would only prolong the inevitable.
    Your sideboard also lacks solid answers. If Dredge can play through Crypt, Leyline, and Relic, it can unquestionably get through Coffin Purge.
    This is particularly problematic owing to the popularity of Dredge in recent tournaments. At the SCG 10K (one of the only tournaments we have full data for, not just the top 8-16), it was the most played deck throughout the day.
    Even worse is you have no clock that Ichorid will care about. You will be playing defense for the whole game. as anyone that has played against Dredge can tell you, that is a doomed proposition.

    I do not mean to sound overly harsh or critical, but I am very worried about this deck's dredge matchup. It might be too generalizing to say this, but I cannot imagine this deck winning a game 1. Maybe a game 2 could be salvaged off of some good draws, but it seems that this deck would almost always fold the Dredge matchup. Am I mistaken in my appraisal? Have I missed some interaction or strategy?
    You're right, the Dredge-matchup is really bad. I count that deck under combo. If you really want to win against it, you have to run a Sideboard with 8+ hatecards I think. That's why I think I have to improve the SB a little bit.


    I really enjoyed the post. Since threat density seems to be a recurring problem that people bring up, what about adding in Bloodghast? It works well with Loam since you want it to go to the graveyard and you should always have lands to play to bring him back if you need to kill him with EE or Deed if it is added.
    Bloodghast is a good creature, no doubt, but the problem is that it can't block. The deck plays defensively and that why Bloodghast is bad. Four removal spells are definitely better because Bloodghasts aren't handling creatures at all.


    I like this deck, it is quite interesting. I tried to get Loam/Smallpox working but never found a good balance. This deck could SERIOUSLY benefit by running Entomb and a single Nether Spirit. Entomb finds all your win cons, Loam, or whetever land you need at the time. My suggestion would be to do this:
    -1 Life From the Loam
    -1 Raven's Crime
    -1 Sinkhole
    -1 Engineered Explosives
    +3 Entomb
    +1 Nether Spirit

    Easier way to find you win cons, is never a dead card (in fact it is great at baiting a Crypt/Relic), and will contribute to the speed and consistency of the deck. Garden/Lands! decks use Gamble as a universal tutor which greatly contributes to consistency, this is what Entomb could do for this deck!
    On the paper it MAY look good, but as stated above, it just hurts the deck. Sure, it can find your winconditions and other things, that doesn't really change the boardposition instantly. But finding a wincondition isn't good when creatures crushed your skull...


    3 Hymn to Tourach (great also for the land destruction part)
    I don't agree with you here. You're cutting removal for discard which, in my eyes, isn't the right way to go. You have to decide yourself between really hating handcards or permanents and I think permanents are better to hate. Without any lands the opponent can't do anything, but without handcards the opponent could draw a threat.


    I think the list is quite similar to the very old deck dirt by finn. The name "dirt" is also more appropiate because calling a deck after a genetic disease is stupid, will get you into all kinds of discussions that distract from the deck and maybe even get you into trouble in a tourney if you write it on your sheet.
    I haven't got any trouble with the deckname at all. Even „harder“ decknames didn't get me into trouble ;).



    PS.: Oh my god, what a long answer...
    PS2.: I haven't regret the step from Bg to Bgw, it made the deck more steady. By changing Maelstrom Pulse for Vindicate, the landdestruction-strategy is even better :).

  17. #17
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    Re: [Primer] "Trisomy 21" / Bgw Loam Control

    Okay, after some more testing (especially against Dredge) I think in the SB there is simply not enough space to cover all the matchups you will need hate for (common problem, I know ;D).

    I used to run a lot of dedicated hate in the sideboard to overcome the problem. From my experience you need at least four slots (if you already run plague in the board).
    Indeed. Because of that I am about to give up completely on the Storm Combo and Belcher MU (what I think is the way to go).
    Here in Hannover you see Dredge pretty often (~5 out of ~40 participants), on the other hand Storm Combo is played by at most 2 people and Belcher does not exist. So it should be okay adding more Dredge hate to stand a chance in game 2/3.

    I will test the following SB in Hannover this Saturday (if I can get my hands on the needed cards):

    4x Leyline of the Void
    3x Engineered Plaque
    3x Pithing Needle
    2x Zuran Orb
    2x Extirpate
    1x Free

    I think in the free slot I will test a Nihilith or is there a better choice?

  18. #18

    Re: [Primer] "Trisomy 21" / Bgw Loam Control

    Better than a Nihilith ? There's plenty stuff:
    3rd extirpate, 4th needle, ravenous trap.

    I like your deck and your explaination, i used to play a lot Truffle Shuffle, the same way, lot of control and few WinCon. It's horrible to play, but when you master it you get so much satisfaction!

    I'm glad to see some deck like that working nowadays.

    Keep on going.

    Grüss from switzerland

    K

  19. #19

    Re: [Primer] "Trisomy 21" / Bgw Loam Control

    I don't know where to start. So much to say ;) I did a lot of playtesting the last two days in our group and online. Well, the deck was a blast to play. Unfortunately I didn't play to much Aggro, much more Control. Anyway. There were some last minute and inbetween changes.

    -1 Nether Spirit (its just not relevant and without Entomb not searchable

    // Lands (24)
    1 Cabal Pit
    1 Tranquil Thicket
    2 Barren Moor
    4 Bayou
    2 Swamp
    1 Forest
    3 Wasteland
    2 Scrubland
    4 Verdant Catacombs
    2 Mishra's Factory
    2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

    // Creatures (1)
    1 Gigapede

    // Spells (35)
    1 Raven's Crime
    1 Syphon Life
    4 Innocent Blood
    2 Sensei's Divining Top
    4 Mox Diamond
    1 Worm Harvest
    3 Pernicious Deed
    4 Vindicate
    3 Life from the Loam
    4 Smallpox
    4 Sinkhole
    4 Hymn to Tourach

    // Sideboard (

    SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
    SB: 3 Krosan Grip
    SB: 2 Extirpate
    SB: 3 Ghostly Prison
    SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
    SB: 2 Kitchen Finks

    before I recall some specific matchups I would like to give some pros and cons to my list:

    2 Mishra's Factory were OK for me since they can block all day with Loam or go for the win if the board is empty. If you care about opponents W mana sources they are here to stay. However I had to mulligan every fifth game or so due to not having the coloured mana needed.

    1 Syphon Life. Wasn't that bad for me. Granted it is slow but it nets you life and won me games in the control matchup. I didn't play decks with Burn, which I intended it for, so it might either be more or less relevant. I can't tell right now.

    2 SDT. This card is crazy with Loam. I didn't realize before how good it is. I really should play 3. Maybe I cut down to 3 Mox Diamond or 3 Hymn.

    4 Mox Diamond: I wasn't satisfied with these neither for speed in the early game nor any other aspect EXCEPT color fixing. Unfortunately it is needed for that. But if it is not speed you need it for than maybe 3 will do.

    1 Worm Harvest. Undecided. Matters only in the very late game and is as slow as Syphon life imho. However against a mill deck I played it was MVP.

    3 Deed. Since I didn't play too much Aggro I cannot tell if it is really soooo much worse against Aggro. However playing Elves it was always a coin flip so EE might have mattered. Dunno.

    4 Vindicate. How could I have played without them for soo long.

    3 Loam. Worked out OK for me. I never missed the fourth.

    4 Hymn. Me likes. Early game they support your plan in land / hand destruction. Later on if your game plan succeeds they are often useless. Maybe since I played more control I found them more useful then SToP. I boarded out Innocent blood a lot. Maybe I start thinking differently when facing Merfolk and Goblins.

    Board: MVP: 3 Ghostly Prison. Combined with LD this is already a common strategy among BW Pox. 2 Extirpate: Choosing more duals is just sooo much fun. Honorable mention: 2 Kitchen Finks for saving my ass against Telemin Performance

    I tested intensively in my playgroup. I will make it short. The decks I played 5 times in a row: Elves, Mono U Control, SpeedMill and Ur Control Homebrew.

    Mono U Control took a looooong time to play these matches. But the matchup is favorable. Shroud creatures can be removed and land destruction / discard hurts them early game. Dredge and retrace cards are most relevant in this matchup for the long run. MVP from opponent is BtB which really slows us down. The Ur version was easy prey due to its more fragile manabase. It wasn't every much fun for my opponent.

    SpeedMill. Apart from the one game lost to Telemin Performance with a Gigapede in play I kept rolling over him with a lot of worms.

    Elves (Anger/Survival not Combo). Tricky matchup. I would call it a coin flip. At least the games I started I won. The mana base has to be disrupted quickly and early otherwise there are too many mana producing Elves in play so that your LD just doesnt matter anymore. Elves have too much options to generate additional mana and they bring a massive amount of elves into play quickly too. Maybe StoPs and EEs are better in this matchup ;) Unfortunately the trick with Ghostly Prison doesnt work here either. I will keep on testing ... well tonight I have a rendezvous with a dredge player. ;)



    Quote Originally Posted by Brot_Ohne_Kruste View Post

    - Many people are removing the Life from the Loam, which is okay and necessary, but not good at all because there is a point in the game where they are without lands or handcards or both and at this point you can overwhelm them with your two killconditions. The good thing is, that you're dredging the winconditions in the lategame in most cases and then you are winning. That's it. People are removing the wrong cards, but it's the best thing they can do.
    I don't quite get that. Are we right or are we wrong ;)

    Quote Originally Posted by Brot_Ohne_Kruste View Post
    - I've tested the Factories and even Treetop Village. The Factories aren't that good because the produce colorless mana and the Village comes into play tapped. Furthermore the both could be sworded, which is really bad. I'd rather play Gargoyle Castle. In this case I would never cut the Cabal Pit, it's just too good. I would rather take one cycling-land out.
    Gargoyle Castle seems great if you CAN recurr it. Mishra is better on its own and less "fancy". If I could make room I would play Gargoyle Castle game 1 and then switch to factories ;) So I see 2 options here: play 2 Factories or play 1 Gargoyle Castle + additional Swamp

    Quote Originally Posted by Brot_Ohne_Kruste View Post
    - I've never missed discard-spells like Duress or Thoughtseize. Sure, you want to clear your way, but not to get your engine going, but rather to completely lock out your opponent without lands. The deck is reactive, it just handles things that are coming down and it doesn't need to handle things in the opponent's hand. Of course it would improve the combo-matchup, but it would also weaken all other matchups I think.
    Me too. I played Duress SB in my Bg version of the deck but almost never used it. I think it also improves the control matchup, but that matter of fact is already rather favorable. Apart from Hymn which can hit lands I agree with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brot_Ohne_Kruste View Post
    - I've played 2-3 Deeds in the Maindeck for quite a long time. It's powerfull, no doubt, but the Explosives are faster and that's really important to win many matchups. In the Goblin-matchup e.g. it's necessary to handle a first turn Aether Vial as fast as possible. This card just destroys you because the deck could still produce creatures without any land in play.
    In Trisomy EE is in most cases a one-permanent-removal because all other permanents are destroyed pretty fast. It's high flexibility makes it really usefull for this deck.
    Maybe I need to paly more to get to that particular point of comprehension.


    Quote Originally Posted by Brot_Ohne_Kruste View Post
    I'd never ever cut one Top except for sideboarding. They're too strong to not play them. As a Top resolves you win most of the games (against non-combo-, non-aggro-decks) because provides you card quality and improves your dredges.
    As you stated, Mox Diamond is the weakest card in the deck, but unfortunately I think that it is necessary to run it. It's fixing the manabase and speeds up the deck, which is needed.
    After my playtesting I do agree. However maybe it is 3 of each .... although playing 4 Mox makes me go "mhh!" as I played Stax for a long time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brot_Ohne_Kruste View Post
    The problem of Nether Spirit is that it is in most cases just a bad wall. It can be sworded which is another negative aspect. In this deck I hate to play threats that can be handled really quick. I've played it in the SB with 3 Entombs Main. I boarded it in, but it was just bad. I'd rather sworded the opponents creature.

    Tomb of Urami can be handled too fast and it destroys your manabase. I'd rather play Gargoyle Castle, in my eyes it's better. As for Mishra, see above ;).
    Yepp agree

    Quote Originally Posted by Brot_Ohne_Kruste View Post
    I've tested Garruk / Elspeth, Kitchen Finks and Witness. All of them got one big problem: in your graveyard they are more then useless. The same goes with Ob Nixilis. It also costs 5 mana, which is high and makes it bad, because it can be handled. Yeah, I know, I have the fear that all threat can be handled, but when you are playing a deck with such a low threat density, you have to play threats that are bulletproofed :).
    At least Witness AND Finks only make sense with Volrath Stronghold for recursion imho. However playing 3 SDT the likelyhood of milling a Plainswalker decreases ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Brot_Ohne_Kruste View Post
    I have tested Syphon Life in Graboids. At the first I thought it was really good, but it turned out that it was really bad, because it was too slow; even for this deck.
    I still have to find that out ...



    Quote Originally Posted by Brot_Ohne_Kruste View Post
    Witness + Stronghold: I've tested it in Graboids, it wasn't good at all. The Witness was just a chumpblocker in most cases. In it's spot I'd rather play the Finks.

    As for Entomb it has got following problem: What does it do, if creatures are smashing your face in turn 2 and 3? Right, nothing. You can Entomb for Life, but it doesn't handle creatures. Thats a big problem, you have to handle all creatures fast and doesn't kill them. Even Entomb on Nether Spirit is not, what you want. With the Spirit you can just handle one creature in most cases. After all the removal density is increased by playing the Swords.
    I totally get your point here and Witness Stronghold Entomb / Spirit maybe too fancy. At least I decided so as well not to play them anymore.


    Quote Originally Posted by Brot_Ohne_Kruste View Post
    In many cases EE blows up permanents with cc 1 or 2. If you want to activate it in one turn, you have to pay three mana; that are the manacost of Deed. EE is helpful by destroying Aether Vial and fast creatures as fast as possible and in the lategame to destroy more permanents. But the main reason why it is played over Deed is, that you have to activate it on turn two or three to survive against aggro. It's all about the speed :). Furthermore it handles Planeswalker ;).
    I totally missed the last point. Sure you probably need help from a Mox to hit Elspeth.


    Quote Originally Posted by Brot_Ohne_Kruste View Post
    You're right, the Dredge-matchup is really bad. I count that deck under combo. If you really want to win against it, you have to run a Sideboard with 8+ hatecards I think. That's why I think I have to improve the SB a little bit.
    I think that you still can tune your SB for dredge without loosing to much slots easily. If you get there Ghostly Prison is MVP. I find it much harder for Storm combo because CotV is not enough by far considering how long it takes us to win.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brot_Ohne_Kruste View Post
    Bloodghast is a good creature, no doubt, but the problem is that it can't block. The deck plays defensively and that why Bloodghast is bad. Four removal spells are definitely better because Bloodghasts aren't handling creatures at all.
    I fear we have to go over this point through the life of this thread a couple of times. Maybe we start calling it the Bloodghast riddle.




    Quote Originally Posted by Brot_Ohne_Kruste View Post
    I don't agree with you here. You're cutting removal for discard which, in my eyes, isn't the right way to go. You have to decide yourself between really hating handcards or permanents and I think permanents are better to hate. Without any lands the opponent can't do anything, but without handcards the opponent could draw a threat.
    Yepp. True. But I also see it as LD. However lategame you are right. Either they have an empty hand anyway or there hand is crowded because the LD plan succeeded. But as I explained before this maybe is a matchup thing. Since I played a lot of control ... but I am considering ...since this is rather positive matchup already.

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    Re: [Primer] "Trisomy 21" / Bgw Loam Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Nekrataal View Post
    I don't quite get that. Are we right or are we wrong ;)
    I won't say you are wrong, but in almost every game I played against hate, they have to remove the Life from the Loam because it made too much card advantage or gets you Wasteland and after that they haven't got enough mana to remove the winconditions. They have to decide if they want to slow down me a little bit or if they don't want to die. If they choose the last one, they probably will die because they haven't got any lands or handcards.


    At least Witness AND Finks only make sense with Volrath Stronghold for recursion imho. However playing 3 SDT the likelyhood of milling a Plainswalker decreases ...
    Yeah, it will decrease the chance of milling them, but I like to play more hate over more wincons :D.


    I totally missed the last point. Sure you probably need help from a Mox to hit Elspeth.
    It was just a little joke ;). Planeswalker aren't really a problem, but if the case occurs that you haven't got a Vindicate, EE could handle it (often with help of the Mox, sure).

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