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Thread: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo

  1. #201

    Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo

    Patrick Chapin came up with the idea of using Grozoth to find Searing Wind and casting it with Dream Halls without Show and Tell

    http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=28917

    Here is the decklist

    Land (19)
    4x Ancient Tomb
    2x Flooded Strand
    2x Island
    2x Misty Rainforest
    2x Polluted Delta
    2x Scalding Tarn
    4x Underground Sea
    1x Volcanic Island

    Creature (3)
    3x Grozoth

    Instant (18)
    4x Brainstorm
    4x Force of Will
    3x Lim-Dul's Vault
    3x Pact of Negation
    4x Searing Wind

    Sorcery (12)
    4x Conflux
    4x Ponder
    4x Thoughtseize

    Enchantment (4)
    4x Dream Halls

    Artifact (4)
    4x Chrome Mox

  2. #202

    Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo

    Thanx Banana,
    this is what more like what I was looking for.
    Any obvious suggestions to add, maybe something like simian spirit guide instead of chrome mox, because chrome mox robs a card which you don't wan't in this deck coz you need as much cards in hand as possibe plus it also can be ditched to searing wind?
    What about inkwell leviathan as an additional 9 cost spell?
    Would you add a pretty standard sideboard to this deck or would this version have a completely different sb?
    discard heavy decks are my main concern so what do you think of ancestral vision as a sb option against discard, what is the best option against discard is it really meditate?

  3. #203

    Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo

    Why play a card that can only tutor for 9cc cards when you can play a card that tutors for any card? You can win with searing wind while playing Conflux too, although Searing Wind is a pretty bad win condition. Conflux is just flat out better than Grozoth.

    If you're not playing S&T, then you might consider taking a more control route. I wouldn't know what that would look like, but S&T is the card that makes this a viable combo deck.

    >> Discard
    Ugh, this question gets asked by everyone - I swear I've offered my advice on this about 6 times in this thread. this was in my post just a couple posts up. Please take time to RTFT.
    Discard is indeed a tough MU. Top helps by letting you float combo pieces on top of your library. If they don't have a fast clock, just play lands for a while and then win when you can rip the combo off the top with Sensei's top or an EOT Lim-Dul's Vault.
    In testing this seemed to work. stuff like hypnotic specter could wreck you, but that's hardly played anymore. Top lets you filter cards beyond the first few turns, and then you can win once you find one/both combo pieces on top of your library. I prefer to run maindeck top, but builds that focus on a fast combo or Progenitus prefer ponder.


    >> Puzzle
    The mono-blue builds where covered in the old Dream Halls thread in N&D. I think the general consensus was that fetchlands were good, LDV was too good not be played in a deck with so many combo pieces, and that discard is great for this deck. I'd like to stress that last point, because pitch counters are not great in this deck. The ideal combo turn involves: S&T -> DH -> Conflux pitching a card. With FoW backup, you'd need 6 colored cards in hand. Discard is a 1 for 1 against control, and you'd be happy to see them in multiples, whereas the second FoW usually pitches to the first one. This is also the reason why Pact of Negation is better in combo-light metagames; 2 Pact of Negations = 2 counters, 2 FoW = 1 counter.

    Intuition is a decent replacement for LDV, but the main benefit of LDV was to tutor up whatever you needed on turn 2 to combo off the next turn.

    If you want to play UB, try playing a U/B build with 20-21 lands with 12-13 of them being basics, and 3-4 dark rituals. I usually only play 1-2 duals because it's rare that I'd ever want more than 1 black mana, and you really want to be hitting your first 3 land drops if you didn't get a nutty hand.

  4. #204

    Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo

    Anyone tried using Child of Alara as a sideboard strategy? I thought it is nice restart if you get rushed by decks like Zoo, Goblins, Dredge maybe (any aggro decks that doesn't have haste) etc. when you can pitch it to the graveyard and then reset the board (minus the Land since they can't be destory.

  5. #205
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    Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Banana View Post
    Anyone tried using Child of Alara as a sideboard strategy? I thought it is nice restart if you get rushed by decks like Zoo, Goblins, Dredge maybe (any aggro decks that doesn't have haste) etc. when you can pitch it to the graveyard and then reset the board (minus the Land since they can't be destory.
    What's wrong with Damnation/Firespout/Wrath of God or other more playable spells? Also, I believe you got it wrong regarding how the card actually works. Pitching it to graveyard does nothing.
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  6. #206

    Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo

    I've been having a really hard time with the merfolk matchup; I haven't tested it yet but has anyone considered maybe counting down the island count by one for a volcanic island and putting firespout or something to the SB?

  7. #207
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    Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Sleep Well View Post
    I've been having a really hard time with the merfolk matchup; I haven't tested it yet but has anyone considered maybe counting down the island count by one for a volcanic island and putting firespout or something to the SB?
    Wouldn't propaganda be a better option? It doesn't weaken your manabase and should provide enough stall to combo out. The match is not easy though, that is for sure.

    Firespout might worth testing though. I think someone had tried fire/ice earlier in the thread as well.
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  8. #208

    Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by ImpinAintEasy View Post
    Wouldn't propaganda be a better option? It doesn't weaken your manabase and should provide enough stall to combo out. The match is not easy though, that is for sure.

    Firespout might worth testing though. I think someone had tried fire/ice earlier in the thread as well.
    Well my thought process was that, it'd be a push in our favor towards helping out with that MU (Merfolk Specifically). Because it's not a good MU at the moment. I plan on testing it at some point.

  9. #209
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    Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo

    Sry for double post..
    Last edited by Dr.AgOn; 06-11-2010 at 02:05 AM. Reason: Double post
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  10. #210
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    Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Banana View Post
    Anyone tried using Child of Alara as a sideboard strategy? I thought it is nice restart if you get rushed by decks like Zoo, Goblins, Dredge maybe (any aggro decks that doesn't have haste) etc. when you can pitch it to the graveyard and then reset the board (minus the Land since they can't be destory.
    Doesn't work while pitching. Has to be on the battlefield first in order to trigger.
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  11. #211

    Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Sleep Well View Post
    Well my thought process was that, it'd be a push in our favor towards helping out with that MU (Merfolk Specifically). Because it's not a good MU at the moment. I plan on testing it at some point.
    What specifically are you having trouble with in the Merfolk MU? Usually they just have 1 counter that you duress, or you FoW/Pact of Negation it, or you bait out a counter with S&T and then hardcast Dream Halls. Their land desctruction is the only thing that hurts you, so you just need to play around that. The deck's primary strength against Merfolk is that Merfolk only has FoW as a hard counter, whereas Dream Halls has 7-8 disruption pieces, 4 S&T, and 4 dream halls that they must deal with. They don't match up with dream halls even if you count their soft counters. The only way they do well is if they go Turn 1 Vial turn 2 Waste + Stifle, or some variation thereof, but you can play around land destruction by fetching basics and only fetching when they tap out, when you have extra lands in hand, or when they drop Standstill. Stifle is actually not that great for Merfolk in this match up; the only time they're winning by keeping stifle mana open instead of dropping dudes is if they have a vial out, and even then that approach gives you about 6-7 turns to assemble your combo.

    I've playtested Merfolk against my friend who was playing a Dream Halls build of 20-21 land (mostly basics and fetches with 1-2 duals) and Pact of Negations instead of FoW. DH won all but 2 games. 1 game I had a godly draw that had a lot of creatures and drew into 2 FoW. The other game was when DH was mana screwed for a while and had to S&T progenitus, which I only raced by dropping LoA off S&T. I'm not claiming to be a good merfolk player, but the matches were all pretty onesided.

  12. #212

    Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo

    This deck is in need of 4 grim monolith. Which probably would go well with the inculsion of intuition over limduls vault. I think that dreamhalls will become the combo deck in legacy post ban list changes. grim monolith is like 20x better than show and tell not that im say cutting show and tell is smart its just that grim monolith is a perfect fit for acell in a deck like this.

  13. #213
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    Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo

    grim monolith can only support dream halls and no other cards in the deck. progenitus is my win-con half the time, so unless you have a build that's pure combo, i can't fathom including monolith currently.

  14. #214

    Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by dearleader View Post
    What specifically are you having trouble with in the Merfolk MU? Usually they just have 1 counter that you duress, or you FoW/Pact of Negation it, or you bait out a counter with S&T and then hardcast Dream Halls. Their land desctruction is the only thing that hurts you, so you just need to play around that. The deck's primary strength against Merfolk is that Merfolk only has FoW as a hard counter, whereas Dream Halls has 7-8 disruption pieces, 4 S&T, and 4 dream halls that they must deal with. They don't match up with dream halls even if you count their soft counters. The only way they do well is if they go Turn 1 Vial turn 2 Waste + Stifle, or some variation thereof, but you can play around land destruction by fetching basics and only fetching when they tap out, when you have extra lands in hand, or when they drop Standstill. Stifle is actually not that great for Merfolk in this match up; the only time they're winning by keeping stifle mana open instead of dropping dudes is if they have a vial out, and even then that approach gives you about 6-7 turns to assemble your combo.

    I've playtested Merfolk against my friend who was playing a Dream Halls build of 20-21 land (mostly basics and fetches with 1-2 duals) and Pact of Negations instead of FoW. DH won all but 2 games. 1 game I had a godly draw that had a lot of creatures and drew into 2 FoW. The other game was when DH was mana screwed for a while and had to S&T progenitus, which I only raced by dropping LoA off S&T. I'm not claiming to be a good merfolk player, but the matches were all pretty onesided.
    Playing around merfolk is fine but they put you on such a fast clock sometimes propaganda isnt even enough, I tried using firespout I just didnt like it. I don't know about those results but I can easily say that merfolk is one of our worst match ups. We steamroll aggro but aggro control not so much.

  15. #215
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    Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Banana View Post
    Patrick Chapin came up with the idea of using Grozoth to find Searing Wind and casting it with Dream Halls without Show and Tell
    I doubt he came up with that idea. It was mentioned numerous times in the decks original development.
    Either way, the SnT package looks much stronger. Chapin is just a ballsy pro. :D
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  16. #216

    Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Sleep Well View Post
    Playing around merfolk is fine but they put you on such a fast clock sometimes propaganda isnt even enough, I tried using firespout I just didnt like it. I don't know about those results but I can easily say that merfolk is one of our worst match ups. We steamroll aggro but aggro control not so much.
    Hmm. It would help if you could point out how you're having more trouble with Merfolk than any other aggro deck. Is it a problem with cantripping? A combination of Daze and Cursecatcher? Mana denial or Standstill?

    From my experience, Merfolk is like a slower Zoo, except with 4 FoW and no burn. In the games that I've played FoW are pretty negligible, since Duress, FoW/Pact, and even S&T can deal with them, and with no deck manipulation they only get FoW in about half their games anyways.

  17. #217

    Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by dearleader View Post
    Hmm. It would help if you could point out how you're having more trouble with Merfolk than any other aggro deck. Is it a problem with cantripping? A combination of Daze and Cursecatcher? Mana denial or Standstill?

    From my experience, Merfolk is like a slower Zoo, except with 4 FoW and no burn. In the games that I've played FoW are pretty negligible, since Duress, FoW/Pact, and even S&T can deal with them, and with no deck manipulation they only get FoW in about half their games anyways.
    May I ask you what you board in?

    EDIT: I don't run pact of negation, how helpful do you find it?

  18. #218

    Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo

    I barely board in anything for merfolk. Sometimes I board in Spell Pierce/Discard if I see a lot of Spell Pierce in game 2. I'm toying with boarding out Progenitus for some Innocent Blood or bounce spells to help buy a few turns. I already have more disruption in my mainboard than they do, so I usually don't change anything.

    The ideal combo turn involves: S&T -> DH -> Conflux pitching a card. With FoW backup, you'd need 6 colored cards in hand. Discard is a 1 for 1 against control, and you'd be happy to see them in multiples, whereas the second FoW usually pitches to the first one. This is also the reason why Pact of Negation is better in combo-light metagames; 2 Pact of Negations = 2 counters, 2 FoW = 1 counter.
    The essential purpose of playing Pact is that it requires 1 fewer card in your hand to combo off. This deck doesn't want FoW for the same reason why this deck doesn't want to play against discard. There's very few must counter cards you'd want to 2-for-1 yourself for, and those are mostly in opposing combo decks. Even in the Countertop-Bant matchup, FoW-ing a CB still puts you in a losing position - spell-pierce or Thoughtseize/duress from the SB can help take care of it. When playing with Pacts, it's not uncommon to combo off with double-Pact backup, which never happens with FoW. One thing with Pact is that you have to be careful with it. It's much better when paired with duress, so you don't accidentally kill yourself while playing against 2-3 counters. Also, being able to trade your Pacts with their FoW gives you such an advantage in the mid-late game.

    One reason for running FoW is that it allows you to go S&T->Prog against CB and other control decks, which is very potent. I only run 1-2 progenitus main, so it doesn't happen for me as often, but this is a valid strategy.

    I really want to hear about what specific problems you guys are having with various MUs. There may be a lot of problems that I've missed in testing. I don't get to do much testing now, so any discussion about how to play specific MUs are very helpful.

  19. #219
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    Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo

    hi :)

    what do you think about this build?

    4 brainstorm
    4 force of will
    3 spell pierce
    3 daze
    4 Lim dul's vault
    4 Ponder
    4 Conflux
    4 Show and tell
    4 Thoughtseize
    4 progenitus
    4 Dream halls
    1 Pandemonio

    3 Ancient tomb
    4 Underground sea
    4 Polluted delta
    1 Flooded Strand
    5 Isola

    we have lost lotus petal but we have more counter..
    do you think it's a good idea?
    and we have only one closing, pandemonium + Progenitus..so there are 2 free slot for other cards..

  20. #220

    Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo

    Pandemonium seems like a pretty neato combo pieces... instead of using Searing Wind.

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