As a sidenote: You shouldn't give too much credit to Jonas Harbili. The deck's inventor is Marc Tobiasch, who lent the deck to Jonas. Marc decided against playing the deck in favour of his 4c Kitchen Finks control deck by flipping a coin.
The Meditates are a SB answer to discard. Marc said he has got enough other weapons to fight blue control.
I tried a UGB version with Veteran Explorer and Lotus Cobra to mana ramp the combo and 4*Seize + 4*Cabal Therapy to protect the combo. The good thing of this version was to be able to play quite often Conflux or even Ultimatum without DH. But I found that I was emptying my hand too fast.
My list was controlish:
The perfect hand is like this:// Lands 19
2 [CST] Island (2)
2 [CST] foret (2)
2 [CST] swamp (2)
3 [ZEN] Fetch UG
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ZEN] Fetch GB
1 [A] Underground Sea
1 [A] Topical Island
1 [A] Bayou
// Creatures 8
4 Veteran Explorer
4 [ZEN] Lotus Cobra
// Combo Package 10
3 [CFX] Conflux
1 [ALA] Cruel Ultimatum
1 [] Echoing Truth
1 [EVE] Nucklavee
4 [SH] Dream Halls
// Disrupt 11
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [] Cabal Therapy
3 [] Pernicious Deed
// Manipulation/Tutors/Piocheurs 12
4 [FNM] Fact or Fiction
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [BOK] Sensei
Turn 1 Explorer.
Turn 2 Seize + Therapy flashbacked. Play Cobra.
Turn 3 Fetch 7 manas in pool to play whatever you want.
First of fall, I would like to thank the person who wrote this primer for making it thorough and informational. Pros and beginners with hopes of riding this deck towards T8 victories will benefit from reading it.
While I cannot discount the possibility of using Tendrils as a bankable win condition, I must just point out that that build makes it unidirectional in a way that it couldn't win without Dream Halls on the board. I would give Jonas the credit for having the balls to bring this unproven list in a major tourney. The same principle applied by Bant/CounterTop/green aggro players made this deck effective and that is what's called NO package. I call SnT the blue and meaner Natural Order, it costs 1 less colored mana to play, it doesn't need 1 creature, and it only costs a fourth of Natural Order (at least that's how much i got mine ). SnT package in this deck is very synergistic. Progenitus, a rainbow card that pitches anything to Dream Halls and SnT accels Dream Halls into play turn 1 or simply wins turn 3 by dropping a fatty that doesn't scoop to anything.
Having alternate win cons wins games.
For your interest, the two lists I told you about, are already uploaded:
http://www.deckcheck.net/event.php?e...Madrid+/+Spain
We tried to copy the Source, but then we realized we're spanish
If my post results dumb or offensive, it's probably just me miserably failing at being ironic in a foreign language
I just took home a set of under ground seas and a set of badlands after finishing second this past weekend at Jupiter games. I played a dream halls list that I have been working on for 3 months solid as I was in the hospital for most of that. Here is the list.
4xbrainstorm
4xponder
4xdream halls
3xconflux
3xintuition
2ximpulse
4xshow and tell
4xcruel ultimatum
4xprogenitus
4xforce of will
3xpact of negation
4xlotus petal
3xsimian spirit guide
8xisland
3xancient tomb
3xcity of traitors
s/b.
4xchalice of the void
1xconflux
1ximpulse
1xintuition
3xmisdirection
3xspell pierce
2xhibernation
After my 2nd place performance i will say the deck needs 1 or 2 more islands, and the hibernations and misdirections are going to change to different cards. Brainstorm is good but i think without that many shuffling effects it might be better as serum visions. I know it looks silly having chalice of the void with all of those cantrips, but when i board in the chalice I take all of them out to bring in 4xchalice, 1ximpulse, 1xintuiton, and 1x conflux. I can afford less search if I'm slowing my opponent down considerably. I can say just coming out of the hospital this was my favorite performance of mine as far as my ten plus year magic career goes. actually its like 14 years but who's counting.
p.s. i just want to say that I had a very good time interacting with everybody. I want to apologize for the simian spirit guide win....that was dumb but sometimes that is how magic goes.
I'm very happy to see another viable combo deck being represented. First Enchantress then Dream Halls. The format is getting better every second.
Congratz on the finish, I'm glad you did well with your list. However, just the thought of not running brainstorm deserves a good smack in the face. Serum Visions? I threw up a little. Run fetchlands, run another color even (black is a great canditate). There is litterally no good reason not to run brainstorm and additional shuffle affects.
maverick, i'm atm trying a four colour version with veteran explorer, academy rector and diabolic intent as a tutor. also play 4 thoughtseize plus 3 cabal therapy as disruption pack, but still haven't reached the optimized configuration.
the combo pieces are 3 conflux, 1 cruel ultimatum, 2 nucklavee and one chain of vapor, though 1 nucklavee is optional sometimes you can hardcast it and gives some c.a.
I will update the main post with the pertinent information, including credit to Marc and his take on Meditate's inclusion. I will also add in the Dream Halls list to the third post (those that finished from Madrid).
Perhaps the best way to start some serious and productive discussion on the deck would be to analyze and compare win condition packages. Which is stronger? Which is faster? Which requires fewer cards? Which is more resilient to disruption? What cards stop certain packages? etc. This would be a good way to more acutely tackle the Dream Halls deck.
Here are the possibilities as I see them:
1. Ultimatum/Hellkite
2. Searing Wind
3. Tendrils of Agony
4. Nucklavee
These are not so much "packages" as they are the key components of the package. Is there any further clarification or preciseness that we can find in regards to win conditions before we actually analyze them?
-ktkenshinx-
I still play show and tell, as well as 4 progenitus. The alternate win condition is still intact. I'm not sure why you thought I would cut those cards. I simply changed the dream halls kill condition. Cruel Ultimatum, like tendrils, cannot be played without dream halls. The only functionality lost is relying on Conflux post dream halls resolution rather than stalling/ hoping to draw conflux off of cruel.
Don't forget Time Stretch. It allows the deck to scrap Ultimatum altogether and instead pack 4x Progenitus as the win/pitch, which imo is a positive since it is actually droppable off S&T. A singleton Stand/Deliver (or Recoil should one splash Black) can be run to bounce Moat/Humility should you be vary of that G1.
I think Time Stretch is actually a pretty good card. When you play Progenitus, Time Stretch basicly means game over. I would still play at least 1 Ultimatum (getting your opponent to discard his whole hand is good after all), but he other 2 spots it takes up can be filled with 1 Time Stretch and 1 card to get rid of nasty things like Moat, Humily, Glacial Chasm and the like. I would actually consider old school Desert Twister for this role, but the fact Vindicate has 2 colors makes it better (easier to fetch with Conflux).
I have also been thinking about Abeyance. When you resolve this, there is nothing your opponent can do. I've been thinking about playing Chant to protect you from countermagic and Grip (you play to combo out the turn you land Dream Halls), but you always were vulnerable against Pridemage. Abeyance actually protects you from both countermagic, and Pridemage activations (or Seal of Cleansing/Primordium and Aura of Silence for that matter).
Maybe splashing white for both Abeyance and Vindicate is a thought to think about for a while.
4th: 293/363
5th: 82/434
Vi: 159/167
Wl: 100/167
Te: 318/335
St: 132/143
Ex: 136/143
US: 235/335
3/8 Sealed boosters
1/8 Sealed boosterboxes
Only 632 cards left for a full Korean set, over 69% done (last update 05/27)
Always looking for sealed product!
Ive been thinking about a slot for Abeyance too in place of Cruel ultimatums.
here's my proposed Conflux#1 defensive pile:
: Lim-Dul's vault/Thoughtseize
: Pact of Negation
: Conflux
: Progenitus
: Abeyance
Vindicate may be squeezed in the slot. This list may require to run the ultimatums in the sb or none at all. 2xTime stretch or 2xPandemonium as the kill card.
There is very solid reasoning for not running multicolor. In testing the mono blue build was doing just as good as the other builds at playing around disruption, but not automatically losing to double wasteland draw automatically is a big bonus. I played against fairly heavy counter spell packages in 6 of the 7 rounds in the swiss and 2 of three rounds in the top 8 so my deck obviously can get past disruption. Brainstorm was not as good as ponder for me 80 percent of the time.
This is true but it is overkill, when u drop progenitus it is pretty much game over. I only had one progenitus killed the entire tournament. and i never lost a race. I also dont like fetches because then I'm open to silly things like stifle and pithing needle to wrecking my mana.
Would Leyline of the Void be a viable Sideboard option? It's useful in quite a few matchups and can be Show and Tell'ed in if necessary.
Yes i think that is definitely one of the cards that is on the radar, definitely a meta-game call.
yes. it is interesting that with FOW you can protect it from their duresses/therapy. Chalice of the Void (1 counter) in the sb may also help, especially against ANT, Ichorid, and Entomb decks. But that's already 8 slots >.<
How about Conflux into:
Sharuum the Hegemon
Sharuum the Hegemon
Disciple of the Vault
Conflux/Progenitus
Conflux/Progenitus
Then Disciple (pitch Conflux), Sharuum (pitch Sharuum). Sharuums create infinite loop of death/resurrection and opponent dies from Disciple. 3 combo slots (instead of 4 Ultimatums), but 1/1 creature is easy to get rid off
The second pile is:
Sharuum the Hegemon
Sharuum the Hegemon
Pandemonium
Conflux/Progenitus
Force of Will/Pact of Negation
Works just like the first one, but you have protection spell and Pandemonium is less vulnerable than Disciple.
The third pile:
Kiki-Kiki, Mirror Breaker
Sky Hussar
Force of Will/Pact of Negation
Conflux/Progenitus
Conflux/Progenitus
This one needs 2 slots for the win, waiting for attack is bad, package includes protection.
And just if you want some classy wins:
Magister Sphinx
Hidetsugu's Second Rite
Conflux/Progenitus
Conflux/Progenitus
Force of Will/Pact of Negation
Sphinx, FINISH HIM!, Hidetsugu's Second Rite, you win, FATALITY
Oh, and the best Conflux pile ever:
Autochthon Wurm
Nourishing Shoal
Lich
Conflux
Pact of Negation
Last edited by eq.firemind; 01-13-2010 at 04:51 AM. Reason: one more pile
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.
Okay. This has been debated 1k times on the other thread and it appeared quite clearly that the best package is:
1*Instant U-Bounce (useful pre-DH)
1*Cruel Ultimatum (useful pre-Conflux)
1*Nucklavee (useful in control MU when you have a lot of lands)
All three elements can be resurrected from the yard and it's possible to protect the combo against any (single) graveyard hate.
The Conflux-stacks are simply (Progenitus is not necessary, even if the deck is probably better with it) :
Conflux => Seize + Fow + Ultimatum + Conflux*2
Conflux (pitch Conflux) => Seize + Bounce + Nucklavee + Conflux
Depending on board state/opponent's hand size/your hand :
- Bounce annoying permanent pitching FoW
- Seize (pitch Conflux)
- Ultimatum (depending on the opponent's hand, pitch either Nucklavee or something else)
Then, combo like a champ. Play Nucklavee regrowth Ultimatum and the Bounce. Play Ultimatum, Bounce Nucklavee, play again Nucklavee, and so on.
I don't see a single reason for using another package actually.
I agree with a lot of the stuff Maveric78f says.
- Running 17 land with no Top makes it very difficult to win against MUs that attack your mana base. It makes you too dependent on S&T. Also, Top is really worth it in this deck. It slows down the turn 2-3 goldfish, but it's invaluable against control and discard. I've said this many times before, but it bears repeating; drawing Vault cards with top is really important. going turn 1 top, turn 2 vault for 2 combo pieces, turn 3 win can happen quite often.
- Force is worse than Pact of Negation to protect our combo, but it's desperately needed to shore up our combo matchups since DH is the slowest combo deck, and it provides a generic solution to problematic cards such as Pridemage and Countertop (even though our combo dodges CT, a turn 2 CT turns off too much of our cantrips and gives our opponent inevitability).
There seems to be a lot of misconception about the Progenitus plan. It's not a good plan vs aggro. You're still at a significant risk to lose even with Turn 2 Progenitus on the draw, or Turn 3 on the play. I think getting raced by aggro is a much greater concern than the few decks in the meta that run 2-3 cards to stop progenitus. Other than FoW and Remember, even if your opponent finds a solution to progenitus, you've at least bought yourself a few more turns to play land and dig for the combo. As for MD answers any permanent that stops any of the win conditions, I suggest a single MD Cunning Wish. It's not dead in any match-up; I have Echoing Truth, Dark Ritual, Pact of Negation, and Ravenous trap in my SB. I only run 1 because it's generally too slow for a combo deck, and I can try to Vault for it if i really need it.
Adding other colors for protection is unnecessary. Abeyance seems interesting as it solves Qasali Pridemage, grip, and counters, but getting 5 mana to cast both Abeyance and S&T Dream Halls is too difficult seeing as how Zoo can goldfish you by turn 4, Merfolk and Thresh pack land destruction, and CounterTop will probably have its combo out by then. Enchantment destruction just sets you back a turn, which is only a problem if you're facing lethal. Get Dream Halls into play, without passing priority Conflux into Rit, DH, Conflux, Prog, CU, and go off the next turn.
Storm is unnecessary. You have to run 1 All Sun's Dawn, or else you're only left with the Progenitus plan if your opponent discards Tendrils, which is unlikely to happen unless your opponent knows your deck, but why take the risk or run additional dead cards as an answer?. You're also reduced to the Progenitus plan if your opponent has Trinisphere.Win conditions
Searing Wind/Magister Sphinx is not that great either. Again, both cards are dead pre-combo (Sphinx can be S&T'd in, but it rarely does anything). Again, you have to run an All Sun's Dawn to avoid losing to discard on win conditions.
Is there any good reason why we must try to win the turn we combo off? Going Conflux -> cast CU 2-3 times, followed by a Wish for bounce/GY hate/countermagic, and finally a Progenitus gives us the game against most decks. Unless you see a lot of Enchantress decks that can have both Moat and Elephant Grass in play on turn 3, there's not much else in the field that can stop it. Running 3 CU gives you 7 cards to cast off Dream Halls, which means that most of the time you'll just be Vaulting for Dream Halls exclusively.
If I were to run a dedicated kill package, I'd probably run Nucklavee-CU-Echoing Truth. It's simple and has only 1 possibly dead card (nucklavee).
This is more or less the deck that a few of my friends and I created a few months ago. A couple things like the land count and the win package could be tweaked. It's not perfect, but in terms of speed it goes off turn 3-4 very consistently. It gets fewer turn 2 wins than the German build, but the basics and top help greatly against land destruction strategies, top is huge against discard. In this deck, you only need UU if you hardcast Dream Halls or if you cast 2 other blue spells in the same turn, and you almost never need BB in a single turn. I rarely have to grab Underground Sea. 3 FoW looks odd - I could easily run 3 duress/thoughtseize and 4 FoW. It's just that Force is terrible at protecting the combo since it requires that you have S&T, DH, Conflux, Force, and 2 other colored cards in hand to go off with protection. If you expect lots of CounterTop or Combo, then 4 Force is a must.
I'm going to test running a few Lotus Petal and Ancient Tomb in place of some land and Dark Rituals to open up a few more slots in the MD. I don't like running 4 progenitus because they're dead without S&T, and I've had bad experiences getting raced by Zoo / Goblins when I had turn 3 Progenitus.
I was originally running 1 Pandemonium 1 All Sun's Dawn as kill, but it's generally worse than Cruel Ultimatum or Time Stretch.
2 Progenitus
3 Cruel Ultimatum
4 Dream Halls
4 Conflux
4 Show and Tell
3 Dark Ritual
4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Top
4 Lim Dul's Vault
4 duress/thoughtseize
3 Force of Will
1 Cunning Wish
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Underground Sea
9 Island
5 Swamp
The S/B is largely unsettled, but it looks sometime like this:
2 Ravenous Trap
2 Relic of Progenitus
4 Spell Pierce
2 Echoing Truth
1 Pact of Negation
1 Dark Ritual
3 xxxx (Possibly Innocent Blood to help shore up aggro matchups)
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