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Thread: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo

  1. #41
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    Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo

    I'm surprised that you don't have to defend against your opponent's using your own Dream Halls very often.


    Storm Combo players could pitch a black spell to cast Ad Nauseum, then dig out Silence, Orim's Chant, or Pact of Negation (pitch a blue spell instead of paying 0). I don't have much experience playing Dream Halls, but that would seem to be a pretty smooth move.

    You're still capable of getting Conflux on the stack, but if your opponent, say, Ad Nauseums, gets a kill, and silences you in response to the Conflux, is there a Conflux pile that could keep you alive?

  2. #42
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    Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Forbiddian View Post
    Pact of Negation (pitch a blue spell instead of paying 0)
    Even when played via Dream Halls one hast to pay the upkeep or lose the game.
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    6. Pass priority after playing Infernal Tutor.
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  3. #43
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    Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Forbiddian View Post
    I'm surprised that you don't have to defend against your opponent's using your own Dream Halls very often.


    Storm Combo players could pitch a black spell to cast Ad Nauseum, then dig out Silence, Orim's Chant, or Pact of Negation (pitch a blue spell instead of paying 0). I don't have much experience playing Dream Halls, but that would seem to be a pretty smooth move.

    You're still capable of getting Conflux on the stack, but if your opponent, say, Ad Nauseums, gets a kill, and silences you in response to the Conflux, is there a Conflux pile that could keep you alive?
    You're right. One might need a SB card to fight this. I propose:
    - to search for 2 counterspells, 1 FoW and 1 black: Countersquall (can be hard casted, might kill), Perplex (can be played, might tutor something), Undermine (might kill too).
    - to search for Misdirection in order to own opponent's chant. But as you reveal the cards you search for, your opponent might as well go off.
    - to search for a combo kill card: extract or hide/seek

    dearleader > You agree that the package I play is the best but you don't play it. I can't the reason why. I agree with you when you say that 4*Progenitus is too many. I'd play either 2 or 3. According to me the list must follow something not far from this:

    Manabase 24
    15 coloured lands
    5 2 mana lands
    4 Petals

    Combo 16
    4*Conflux
    1*Ultimatum
    1*Bounce
    1*Nucklavee
    3*SnT
    4*DH
    2*Prog

    Search/Draw/Manipulation 11
    2*Mystical Tutor
    4*Brainstorm
    3*Top
    2*Fact or Fiction

    Protection 9
    4*FoW
    3*Seize
    2*Spell Snare

    Black is really subpar MD, but it might take more importance post SB. Or it might be cut and play more Spell Snare and Spell Pierce instead. And in SB to fight extirpate, you may want to have another Ultimatum (discard 6 is generally better than extirpate).

    About the SB:
    1*Hide/Seek or Countersquall
    4*protection slots (more seize, pierce, snares, Pact of Negation)
    4*anti graveyard
    4*More bounces (hibernation, rebuild, rushing river)
    2*Meditate (control MU)

  4. #44

    Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo

    The only reason I don't play it is because I don't see the need to have a dedicated win package. The difference between killing your opponent outright and leaving them at -6 cards, -2 creatures, - 10 life, with yourself holding a handful of counters, a utility spell off Cunning Wish, a Progenitus in play and +10 life is minor. Perhaps Lands could answer that if they have more than 1 Maze of Ith so that I can't go Cunning Wish -> Wipe Away, Cruel Ultimatum, and end the turn holding 3 FoWs. It's just that all else being equal, I'd rather have the 2 additional CU to combo off than Nucklavee and a bounce spell.

    What's the reason behind running 3 S&T? I see that you're running mystical tutors to grab them (instead of Vault, which i like because i've been boarding out vault against spell snare), but I always want to see S&T. When I've played against control, they've almost always countered S&T because of the threat of progenitus. It helps so much in trying to resolve Dream Halls / Conflux in the long game.

    What's the reasoning behind 2 FoF? I was originally running 2 cunning wish until I felt it was too slow. Is FoF just there to combat against discard and Counter top?

  5. #45
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    Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo

    Maybe you're right about the unnecessary kill package even if it does not work against Ichorid, Survival or Echantress (and sometimes tribal that has overextended). For this last reason, I'd still play 4 Cruel Ultimatum and maybe only 3 Confluces then (in order to be able to kill). But then you lack a bounce MD, which is always cool to have with Mystical Tutor. So I don't know...

    FoF is against counterspells, discard and it helps to combo. With FoF + 2*blue spells in hand, you can try to combo efficiently. The classical play remains to play it at end of turn, untap and to start comboing at your turn.

  6. #46
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    Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo

    What are you trying to counter with Spell Snare in your mainboard?

    What's the point of Nucklavee? Are there any relevant instants you can return?

    What do you want to bounce in game one?
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  7. #47
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    Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo

    Spell Snare:
    Counterbalance, chalice, hate bear, hymn to tourach, tarmogoyf, qasali. All the hate is 2CC. And some of this hate is heavily played MD.

    Nucklavee: Fact or Fiction, the instant U-bounce that will bounce Nucklavee and so on...

    In game 1, there is not much thing I need to bounce, you're right. But this might happen with gaddock, meddling mage and counterbalance.

  8. #48
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    Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Maveric78f View Post
    Spell Snare:
    Counterbalance, chalice, hate bear, hymn to tourach, tarmogoyf, qasali. All the hate is 2CC. And some of this hate is heavily played MD.

    Nucklavee: Fact or Fiction, the instant U-bounce that will bounce Nucklavee and so on...

    In game 1, there is not much thing I need to bounce, you're right. But this might happen with gaddock, meddling mage and counterbalance.
    What reason do you even have to run Dream Halls combo over ANT at this point if Chalice and CB are hate cards to you? How exactly is Chalice going to prevent you from casting Dream Halls into Conflux Ultimatum Progenitus stuff? How is Counterbalance going to achieve that? No one runs hate bears mainboard. And as far as I'm concerned, a combo deck like this doesn't want to waste cards on countering stuff like Goyfs that only become relevant aften you should have won the game already. Pridemage is really the only card on your list that does make sense. Doesn't seem worth it to run Snares for that.

    I doubt the Nucklavee is good. You never want to see it in your hand unless you already have cast a FoF and you are comboing, and at that point you're probably winning. You can easily win without Nucklavee when comboing through Conflux.

    The fact that it might happen is definitely not a good reason to play a card you never want to see otherwise.
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  9. #49

    Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Maveric78f View Post
    Maybe you're right about the unnecessary kill package even if it does not work against Ichorid, Survival or Echantress (and sometimes tribal that has overextended). For this last reason, I'd still play 4 Cruel Ultimatum and maybe only 3 Confluces then (in order to be able to kill). But then you lack a bounce MD, which is always cool to have with Mystical Tutor. So I don't know...

    FoF is against counterspells, discard and it helps to combo. With FoF + 2*blue spells in hand, you can try to combo efficiently. The classical play remains to play it at end of turn, untap and to start comboing at your turn.
    I'm running 1 Cunning Wish maindeck to grab a bounce spell if I win off of Conflux. This grabs bounce against Enchantress and graveyard hate against Survival and Ichorid. If I draw the Cunning Wish, it can grab Dark Ritual for acceleration, or it can grab Pact of Negation for protection. Regardless, I think it's a close call whether to run a kill package.

    I'll try FoF, at least in the board. Even though it's slower it still seems better than Meditate.

    What reason do you even have to run Dream Halls combo over ANT at this point if Chalice and CB are hate cards to you? How exactly is Chalice going to prevent you from casting Dream Halls into Conflux Ultimatum Progenitus stuff? How is Counterbalance going to achieve that? No one runs hate bears mainboard. And as far as I'm concerned, a combo deck like this doesn't want to waste cards on countering stuff like Goyfs that only become relevant aften you should have won the game already. Pridemage is really the only card on your list that does make sense. Doesn't seem worth it to run Snares for that.

    I doubt the Nucklavee is good. You never want to see it in your hand unless you already have cast a FoF and you are comboing, and at that point you're probably winning. You can easily win without Nucklavee when comboing through Conflux.

    The fact that it might happen is definitely not a good reason to play a card you never want to see otherwise.
    The combo itself isn't affect by countertop or Chalice, and neither of these cards affects Dream Halls as much as ANT. However, the fact that they blank so many cantrips can make it difficult to go off with counter protection, giving countertop a huge advantage in the mid-late game, where otherwise Dream Halls would have no problems against control.
    Hymn and Pridemage are also pretty important. I'm not sure if that makes Spell Snare is worth, or if Spell Pierce isn't better.

    The problem with the win condition is that you'll generally have to have dead cards if you want to win in one turn. The only win condition that doesn't have dead cards is Time Stretch, which you can cast off DH to spend 2 turns grabbing the combo.

  10. #50

    Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo

    I wonder, if we're splashing White, whether Suppression Field may not abe a good sideboard card, as it stops a number of key Legacy cards (Top and Pridemage, primarily), and it has little impact on your deck; the only cards really affected are your fetches.

  11. #51
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    Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo

    Some matchup information, courtesy of the Excel spreadsheet from the SCG Dallas/Ft. Worth Open.

    Three Dream Halls decks placed quite well in the tournament, each one enjoying a winning record throughout the day against a range of decks. We only have the decklist for one of them (Mr. Ed Novak's, presented below), but we have matchup data for all three of them. There are some slight and interesting differences between Novak's deck (19th overall at the event) and Harbili's (not to mention the GP Madrid decklist). These will be worth talking about; these lists represent our only evidence-based discussion of Dream Halls. They actually placed well at tournaments, despite what naysayers about the build and the strategy say.

    Dream Halls
    By Ed Novak
    19th Place at SCG Dallas/Ft. Worth Legacy Open


    Lands: 17
    4 Ancient Tomb
    2 Flooded Strand
    2 Misty Rainforest
    2 Polluted Delta
    2 Scalding Tarn
    5 Island

    Creatures: 5
    3 Simian Spirit Guide
    1 Bogardan Hellkite
    1 Progenitus

    Artifacts and Enchantments: 8
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Dream Halls

    Instants: 16
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Force Of Will
    4 Mystical Tutor
    4 Pact Of Negation

    Sorcery: 14
    4 Conflux
    3 Cruel Ultimatum
    3 Ponder
    4 Show And Tell

    Sideboard: 15
    2 Relic Of Progenitus
    1 Tsabo's Web
    4 Blue Elemental Blast
    3 Mindbreak Trap
    4 Nix
    1 Iona, Shield Of Emeria

    The deck trades alternate strategies (Progenitus beats, for instance) in favor of maximum speed, with 3 Spirit Guides and a full set of Petals. The deck favors Mystical Tutor to LDV, a decision that I am not sure is ideal; Tutor cannot find the main combo piece, and that is a huge strike against a combo deck that runs it. Pact of Negation replaces Thoughtseize as the second set of disruption cards, but I imagine this would be a serious liability in matchups like Zoo (Pridemage), where you can't even use Pact before you combo out.

    The Sideboard is full of interesting ideas. The Mindbreak traps give Halls an almost guaranteed ability to race ANT, with Blue Elemental Blast giving similar power in the Belcher matchup (not to mention Goblins, Zoo, Burn, etc.) Nix is an excellent alternative to Spell Pierce, given that they will probably be aimed at the same things: Daze and FoW. Iona also provides an additional boost, although I wonder how many times Novak actually used her in his day.

    Overall I like the changes to Harbili's list that Novak implemented, except for one. The lack of Progenitus would be a serious problem in the long run of testing. SnT --> Progenitus is an amazing combo that can consistently get online on turn 2. If on the play, you will be well-positioned to end the game quickly. This is especially powerful in the control matchup, which, as we will shortly see, Novak did not actually face all day.

    Now, onto the matchups. Here is the data for Novak's deck, and then that for Dustin Buckingham and Andrew Shugar.

    Dream Halls by Ed Novak (19th Overall)
    Game 1: ANT, Won 2-0 (1-0)
    Game 2: Enchantress, Lost 0-2 (1-1)
    Game 3: Survival, Lost 1-2 (1-2)
    Game 4: Aggro Loam, Won 2-0 (2-2)
    Game 5: Dredge, Won 2-1 (3-2)
    Game 6: Boros Aggro, Won 2-0 (4-2)
    Game 7: Belcher Combo, Won 2-0 (5-2)

    Dream Halls by Dustin Buckingham (28th Overall)
    Game 1: UW Control, Won 2-0 (1-0)
    Game 2: Countertop, Lost 0-2 (1-1)
    Game 3: Countertop, Won 2-0 (2-1)
    Game 4: Natural Order Bant, Won 2-0 (3-1)
    Game 5: Fish, Lost 0-2 (3-2)
    Game 6: Threshold, Won 2-0 (4-2)
    Game 7: Fish, Lost 1-2 (4-3)

    Dream Halls by Andrew Shugar (36th Overall)
    Game 1: ANT, Won 2-0 (1-0)
    Game 2: Belcher, Lost 1-2 (1-1)
    Game 3: Natural Order Bant, Lost 0-2 (1-2)
    Game 4: Zoo, Won 2-1 (2-2)
    Game 5: Burn, Lost 1-2 (2-3)
    Game 6: ANT, Won 2-0 (3-3)
    Game 7: Goblins, Won 2-0 (4-3)

    Much of this tournament data confirms my own testing in the initial primer. ANT was largely a favorable matchup, and I imagine Belcher remains so (the 1-2 loss suggests that Shugar probably drew poorly and/or Belcher drew well). Merfolk was a nightmare, as predicted, and the dedicated Aggro decks were largely out-combod. I am surprised to see the back-to-back countertop matchups. In the first, Buckingham gets crushed 0-2. But then he pulls back on top for a 2-0 win. I am still confident that the Countertop mtachup is terrible, so I must chalk up the second win to luck of the draw or brilliant/stupid play on one or both player's parts.

    -ktkenshinx-

  12. #52
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    Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo

    Might Sphinx of the Steel Wind be a good SB card for the Zoo matchup?

  13. #53

    Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo

    Why is the Cruel Ultimatum kill better than using Conflux to get Progenitus, Magister Sphinx, and Dragon Breath? It kills the opponent no matter what their life total, and it only has a single non-SnT-able card (dragon breath).

  14. #54
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    Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo

    Dragon Breath can't enchant Progenitus. Also, a hasty Magister Sphinx kills in two turns, and it is prone to removal.

  15. #55
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    Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo

    A Ur list with burning wish is conceivable. Especially since scalding tarn is legal, and then anger would replace Dragon Breath quite efficiently. BW searches for either conflux or SnT. And red provides Reb in SB. It's nice on paper but in my testings it was damageable to have (crucial) 2CC spells in a deck that is normally Spell Snare proof.

    I also like a lot the ability to play fire/ice. MD hate bear removal time walk, and pitchable to play BW with DH.

  16. #56

    Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo

    I don't aspire to play this deck but I wanted to give props to the original poster for the great primer.

  17. #57

    Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo

    Hey guys,

    I'm going to take Dream Halls to a tourney this saturday, but I'm still looking for a decent sideboard. I'm expecting a meta of a decent number of Goblins, some ANT, some Merfolk, a couple of Bant (NO & no NO) and then some random others (Zoo, Landstill, Rock).
    So far, my sideboard will look like this (fairly straightforward):

    3 Propaganda
    4 Spell Pierce
    2 Duress
    2 Meditate
    2 Hydroblast
    2 Pithing Needle

    I'm thinking to replace the Meditates with Massacre. I'm just a bit concerned running into a decent number of hatebears (Teeg, Cannonist) and I think Massacre might be a good answer here (all hatebears are white, so plains should be a given and I'm playing USea, so swamps should work out too).

    What do you guys think about it? What would be a good sideboard in a meta as given above?

    PS: I don't have any bounce in the side, since I'll be playing a Nucklavee list with a maindeck copy of Wipe Away and Echoing Truth.

  18. #58
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    Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo

    You might want to know that Gaddock Teeq shut's down Massacre.

    Also, Mindbreak trap might be useful if you are facing lots of storm.

  19. #59
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    Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by caenel View Post
    I'm thinking to replace the Meditates with Massacre. I'm just a bit concerned running into a decent number of hatebears (Teeg, Cannonist) and I think Massacre might be a good answer here (all hatebears are white, so plains should be a given and I'm playing USea, so swamps should work out too).
    Unfortunately, Massacre costs 4, wich means you can't cast it with Teeg in play.
    <beaten by Hopo>
    A little piece of information: I've played against Dream Halls with my WG Survival/DnT mix. I run 4 hatebears (3 Teeg+1 Canonist) main and 2 more in side. We played 5 games, I win 4, lost 1. Cards that won me games were Wasteland (mainly), hatebears and Krosan Grip. I lost a game due to turn 2 or 3 Show and Tell into Prog. The close game was the one with Show and Tell into Prog in turn 5. I pulled that one on the back of multiple Tarmos, Children of Korlis and Aven Mindcensor, but it was still close.
    I guess Show and Tell is good against hatebears.

  20. #60

    Re: [Deck] Dream Halls Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by ktkenshinx View Post
    Dream Halls
    By Ed Novak
    19th Place at SCG Dallas/Ft. Worth Legacy Open


    Lands: 17
    4 Ancient Tomb
    2 Flooded Strand
    2 Misty Rainforest
    2 Polluted Delta
    2 Scalding Tarn
    5 Island

    Creatures: 5
    3 Simian Spirit Guide
    1 Bogardan Hellkite
    1 Progenitus

    Artifacts and Enchantments: 8
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Dream Halls

    Instants: 16
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Force Of Will
    4 Mystical Tutor
    4 Pact Of Negation

    Sorcery: 14
    4 Conflux
    3 Cruel Ultimatum
    3 Ponder
    4 Show And Tell

    Sideboard: 15
    2 Relic Of Progenitus
    1 Tsabo's Web
    4 Blue Elemental Blast
    3 Mindbreak Trap
    4 Nix
    1 Iona, Shield Of Emeria

    The deck trades alternate strategies (Progenitus beats, for instance) in favor of maximum speed, with 3 Spirit Guides and a full set of Petals. The deck favors Mystical Tutor to LDV, a decision that I am not sure is ideal; Tutor cannot find the main combo piece, and that is a huge strike against a combo deck that runs it. Pact of Negation replaces Thoughtseize as the second set of disruption cards, but I imagine this would be a serious liability in matchups like Zoo (Pridemage), where you can't even use Pact before you combo out.

    The Sideboard is full of interesting ideas. The Mindbreak traps give Halls an almost guaranteed ability to race ANT, with Blue Elemental Blast giving similar power in the Belcher matchup (not to mention Goblins, Zoo, Burn, etc.) Nix is an excellent alternative to Spell Pierce, given that they will probably be aimed at the same things: Daze and FoW. Iona also provides an additional boost, although I wonder how many times Novak actually used her in his day.
    I think cutting Vault is a reasonable choice. It's the only card in the deck that eats spell snare against control, and it's relatively slow against aggro. I've been considering a build that plays Mystical Tutor with 8 S&T targets and fewer cards to cast off Dream Halls. I don't understand why he wouldn't run more S&T targets, since Mystical Tutor is basically a Vault that doesn't find the permanents. Running 8-9 S&T targets with 4 S&T and 4 Mystical seems reasonable.

    Without Vault, the singleton Iona seems really random too. Are there any situations anyone can think of where you need Iona after you combo off in order to win?

    The argument against Thoughtseize is that you lose 2 life and a card even when there is nothing relevant to take. Losing a colored card can be crucial when the deck needs 4 in hand to win consistently via S&T-Dream Halls. The fact that it's free speeds up the deck a bit. It also lets him go mono-blue, which could be a minor advantage.

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