Mmmmhh. I never realised that. Still it's difficult (and in most cases impossible) to reach the game state where you have only 3/4 Prog left in library. If you count the number of cards in hand:Originally Posted by caenel
Bounce: Nucklavee-Bounce-Pitch = -1 card
CU (pitching Nucklavee): Draw3+Nucklavee-CU-Nucklavee = +2 card
Nucklavee: Bounce+CU-Nucklavee-Pitch = 0 card
It means that you have only a CA of +1. Knowing that you play more than 1/3 of cards you can't pitch to play your spells (lands/petals/tops), it means that you can't rely on this "infinite kill".
Anyway, the deck does not need any infinite kill in most cases. The reason why I play an infinite kill in my Ur build is that this kill is the only one I could figure out with 100% good SnTable cards in 3 cards (not requiring any attack).
Wouldn't Petals be better as Simian Spirit Guides to help with coloured spells (and sporadically a counter for Daze). Or at least a partial mix?
Petals are better because you can cast them once your hand reaches maximum size. Adding SSGs after 3 or 4 Petals makes you win faster with Dream Halls. You'll need to cut cards for it though (Progenitus/Ponders/Tutors) which leads to lesser SnT>Progenitus kills on early turns OR difficulty in finding DH+CFX. You end up with a faster but less consistent deck that is also more susceptible to hatebears and relies heavily on good draws, like Belcher.
I was thinking... How about this kill package?
4 Progenitus. 2 Time Stretch. That's it. Nothing else. No Nucklavee, Bogardan Hellkite, Cruel Ultimatum. Just 2 Time Stretch.
I know this sounds crazy, because this means your only way of winning is Prog beats, but hear me out.
These are what I believe to be the advantages:
- Prog + 1 Time Stretch usually equals 20 damage. However, with 2 Time Stretch, you can deal 40 damage if 20 isn't enough.
- If one Time Stretch gets discarded, you still have another one.
- Time Stretch is blue, so you can pitch it to Force of Will, but since you run 2 Time Stretch, you can actually pitch a Time Stretch to Force of Will to protect Dream Halls or Show and Tell, and then Conflux for the other Time Stretch. If you pitch a Nucklave/Cruel Ultimatum you probably just shot yourself in the foot.
- You can use the saved slots for additional bounce removal or counter protection. These extra saved slots can mean the world when you need to combo fast and find the right pieces and protect yourself.
Here's another way of looking at it:
(1 Wipe Away ) + 2 Time Stretch <= 1 Wipe Away + 1 Nucklavee + 1 Cruel Ultimatum <= 1 Magister Sphinx + 2 Bogardan Hellkite <= 4 Cruel Ultimatum + 1 Bogardan Hellkite
Really, I'm just advocating 4 Progenitus + 1 Time Stretch as the kill, but running a spare to pitch to FoW, or have a backup if one gets discarded, or use if 20 damage isn't enough.
The problem with the Progenitus + Time Stretch kill is that you primary kill and your backup plan are "hateable" for the same cards. You can't win with Elephant Grass or Humility or Runed Halo or Moat for example.
Sure you can. You'd still obviously still run bounce spells maindeck for the diversity they bring and the fact that they can still buy a turn or two versus aggro and board control decks.
Maybe the 3-4 Ultimatums are better to play DH without Conflux. Besides you must play more bounce for multiple hate permanents.
EDIT: But 2 Extraturns seem nice too (Together with 2 Bounce -> 4 Slots)
Last edited by odabella; 01-20-2010 at 10:40 AM.
The big difference is that when you're comboing "blindly" with just two or three cards in hand other than conflux (which is always autowin), which happens quite often if you used show and tell or a force of will to protect the combo, if you cast a cruel ultimatum you'll probably win from that, but if you have a time stretch you're doing almost nothing. That is why killing with ultimatums is superior to anything else, apart from the suggested advantages of avoiding the combat step and other random things like glacial chasm or the like.
currently my backup plan against GY hate:
I wonder about Hostility's potential in a deck like this. Because it performs the same function as Progs for Conflux and Cruel Ultimatum. In addition, if I understand the Rules correctly, it converts each life from Cruel to a 3/1 with Haste.
Just a thought.
EDIT; Damn, oit doens't work that way. Boo.
Last edited by Darkenslight; 01-21-2010 at 09:23 AM.
Hostility:
If a spell you control would deal damage to an opponent, prevent that damage.
Cruel:
Target opponent sacrifices a creature, discards three cards, then loses 5 life.
Damage is considered to be loss of life but loss of life isn't damage. This means that Hostility will not trigger on the 5 life loss from Cruel.
What about the playing in a mirror match???
Yesterday I won g1 making my opponent resolving a Show and Tell, we both played a Dream Halls, then I Forced his Cruel, leaving him with an empty hand. In my turn I played Conflux, winning the match.
Starting from here, I decided to side in this way: -4 Progenitus -2 Vault -1 Show and Tell +4 Spell Pierce +2 Duress, with the idea to use again his own Show and Tell and/or Dream Halls, counter the spell played by Dream Hall and winning with his hand empty. And it was what exactly appened in g2 ^^
So, what do u think should be the right gameplan in a mirror match pre and post side???
_perfido_
That is a nice gameplan against bad players, but against decent players you can't expect winning the round like that. I use to sb this way in the mirror match:
-3 progenitus
-3 show and tell
-2 lim-dûl's vault
+4 s. pierce
+2 duress
+2 meditate
Card advantage is crucial in the mirror match, so I leave out cards that produce disadvantage (S&T and consequently progenitus, vaults), and sb in disruption and card advantage (meditate), taking the control role always, and just going off if I have duressed or thoughtseized the same turn or the turn before.
Top is the best card in the mirror match. The version that myself and a few friends play run 3 tops, and whoever lands it early wins ~75% of the time. It can make Lim Dul's Vault pretty backbreaking. Also, having lots cards to cast off Dream Halls helps greatly - you can sometimes power through counters by playing multiple cards of DH. There's some tricks you can do, like if you see that they still keep S&T post board, you can board out all the S&Ts and acceleration, and some Vaults, while keeping Progenitus to cast off their S&Ts. But how often are you expecting the mirror match?
The mirror match is kinda funny because it devolves into who blinks first by putting Dream Halls into play. Without S&T, the games last long enough for both players to sculpt their hand, so tapping mana to play DH usually means being on the losing end of a spell-pierce war.
You play 6 duress to avoid such things. Neither you nor your opponent should try to go off in the first turns, so you have plenty of time to develop your board with lands to cast halls. And pierces should be used in your opponents cantrips and duresses OR if your opponent tries to go off, but not to defend yourself when comboing.
Playing dream halls off S&T means going off with 5 cards in hand at most, because dream halls will resolve 90% of the time, while facing an opponent with 7 cards. Not very promising, specially when you are left with just 3 cards after playing conflux or cruel ultimatum... That's why S&T has to be sideboarded out.
I firmly believe six discard effects to be too many in a deck of this foundation. You play cards like Ponder and Lim-Dul's Vault to set up your next draws, and in my eyes, it just seems like overkill. In my list, I currently run a protection suite which looks like this:
[4]x Force of Will
[3x] Thoughtseize
[1x] Duress
I just think some people have the misconception that this deck eats it pretty easily to hate. In my experiences, it actually can power through hate quite effectively. I run one Time Stretch in my build, as well as a single Ancestral Memories, which when played gets you the two-card combination you need to win the game; I've found it to be quite effective in testing. It's also a neat top-deck when you have no cards left in hand.
The single Time Stretch I run replaces the fourth Progenitus. I really do enjoy abusing Show and Tell, so I also maintain the Hellkite as well as something else. Show and Tell makes the world go 'round, here.
The list I run is a little unorthodox, but I've found it to work great. I'll have it up later as it is a home.
You play six duress AFTER sideboarding in the mirror obviously. Maindeck you play just 4 thoughtseize.
Assuming you win game one, why would you put in two more Duress when you'll be on the draw? It makes more sense to be able to maintain your protection suite (with four discard spells and four Force of Will) as is and then substitute for Spell Pierce, which is far more effective than, say, boarding out the most critical component of the deck (being Show and Tell).
That card should never be sideboarded out, ever. All you're doing is depleting a fast start with discard spells. And, assuming your opponent has Brainstorm or a discard spell to start the game off, your newly inserted discard spell becomes useless. Remember, you are benefitting just as much as they are from either card.
It's like the Painter mirror: Board out the Painter's Servants and keep in the Grindstones. Same philosophy here, except Painter's Servant (on its own) is not even close to being as powerful as either a Dream Halls or Show and Tell play. I run a different sideboard as well as a different maindeck and I've tesed extensively against the mirror. And the one constant in each of those matches came down to one card:
Force of Will.
If you drop a Dream Halls off Show and Tell, you can immediately start wreaking havoc on an opponent. Which means they HAVE to stop that from hitting play because they will not get (effectively) another turn after you play either Conflux or Cruel Ultimatum. Thus, they need to stop it then and there. When they do, they have to pitch a card in the process to Force, oftentimes eliminating a card which would have won them the game off their Dream Halls turn. Both win conditions are sorcery speed, so when you extract your basic fundamental strategy of win first, you're putting yourself at risk.
Discard does help, and it helps in that it prevents you from having to pitch a card to Force of Will. Thankfully, the acceleration components in the deck force you to sacrifice a Lotus Petal or take damage off Ancient Tomb. Rarely, if ever, will an opponent begin the game with enough mana to prevent Spell Pierce from being effective in the mirror. Now you're capable of playing both discard and more countermagic, without having to pitch a key spell.
Example:
I was playing on MWS not too long ago. I play Show and Tell. Opponent Forces, pitching Progenitus. I Force back...forced to pitch Cruel Ultimatum. Show and Tell resolves and Dream Halls comes into play. I am left with a single card in hand. My opponent now has a single card left in their hand that does not comes into play off Show and Tell. My opponent draws a card for turn. My opponent proceeds to win, pitching Force of Will for Conflux.
This happens a lot in the mirror because you have to deplete your hand in order for the deck to be effective. Unless Cruel Ultimatum resolves, then you'll be putting yourself at card disadvantage. Point is, you already run enough discard that on the draw game two, discard won't matter. I have played more opponents who have been playing Brainstorm over Ponder, dead serious (because you are now allowed immediate access to your top three Vaulted cards).
And personally, I do not run four Thoughtseize in my main deck. There isn't a creature in the game that scares me with this deck. You run Vault, Tomb, Force, and Thoughtseize. That is just masochism. Three Thoughtseize and one Duress seem like a much better fit. I've even considered dumping Thoughtseize all together for Duress, particularly in this deck.
I agree that counters are better than discard; a lot of time you don't want empty your hand if you can avoid it, as there might not be any relevant cards to take. I've tested against ANT and the results were somewhat surprising, although a few bad draws for the ANT player may have skewed the results. FoW is the best card because stops your opponent from comboing without depleting your hand; the combo player has to find solutions to a force while you have the potential to combo off at any given turn. For the mirror, reactive protection has some advantages over discard.
However, S&T is not good in the mirror. It's card disadvantage, and, unless you've Duressed your opponent, a risky play. The only time I'd choose to play a Dream Halls in the mirror is if: 1) I have a hand that can beat one counterspell and 2) I've either Duressed and seen a weak hand, or he hasn't resolved a Lim Dul's Vault.
Hollywood, in your example game, why did you Force back when you only had 1 cad left in your hand? If you didn't force, you would have a grip of Dream Halls, Conflux, Force, and a blue card compared to his single card. I would be happy if my opponent blew a force on a non-essential part of the combo. It's actually very likely that his last card is a Conflux or Cruel Ultimatum, since it's the card you always want to keep in hand for the mirror, especially seeing as you were casting S&T. Also, he pitched a Progenitus to his FoW instead of putting it into play, suggesting that his last card is either a land or Conflux/Cruel Ultimatum - if it were anything else, he would have pitched that to the Force and put Progenitus in play, forcing you to topdeck ftw. Of course, I don't know much about the game state (whether either player has resolved a Vault, how many duress have been cast etc.)
SnT is bad in some MUs. Enchantress, mirror, reanimator to start with.
DH is bad in some MUs. Decks that have no answers to a big creature, ANT, Solidarity, and probably others.
Why would not you SB out bad cards?
However playing more than 4 discards is suicidal. Even 4 was too many according to me.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote