61 cards is this right ?Originally Posted by venice
Massive props to you two! Job well done. See you in Hassloch, I hope.
And that this doesn't stay an off-topic one-liner:
Why do you play Shusher in the board? Seems kind of redundant with the Grips (and the cats maindeck) against CB, and other counterheavy decks are virtually non-existant. Enlighten me =)
Sneaky Pirates of Doom - Not really a Legacy Team anymore.
grats, snief and venice, for more success with this great deck! hope I can play it in upcoming weeks in frankfurt or hassloch for myself :D
@Waikiki: Yes, 61 cards is right.
@SpiritOfTheWretch: Thanks! And yes, weīll definitely be there next Sunday. ;)
On the Shusher issue: they come in against Loam to negate their Chalice (I would also bring them in against Stompy.dec for the same purpose). Being able to cast StoP on their big guys is really crucial. As is recurring Frog, if they go really aggro. And although not played that much atm, they are of course also great against heavy control and cb-top - especially if you get an active Mother of Runes to protect it! In my opinion the MatchUp vs. CB.dec is not that good, even more so if the player knows what heīs doing, thus I wanted an extra Silverbullet against those kind of decks. And so far Iīm quite satisfied with them.
@Slayjay: Thanks! Yeah, I hope to see you next weekend in Haßloch, too - joining us with the deck of course! ;)
Very good job again guys : )
I can't say much new but I noticed a few things.
- Children of Korlis does not help against ANT: Your hate card not only has to keep them from winning with Tendrils of Agony but also from casting Ad Nauseam. This way they have to spend a tutor to find bounce which will slow them down so you can get more hate. With Children of Korlis they can use their Tutor for Ad Nauseam, draw 20 cards and bounce the Children before casting Tendrils.
- The White Staxx matchup / dahcmai: I think the matchup is positive and the losses were statistic deviations. 2 of your 4 losses involved mulligans into oblivion and one a ridiculous draw on his side (Turn 1 Trinisphere on the play beats ~ every deck in the format and they have have it in ~ 1 of 20 games and need to be on the play). Usually they are much more vulnerable to Mulligans than GW. Also note that you have 3-4 Disenchant effects maindeck, 3-4 in the Sideboard and if you get 3 mana sources into play for 2 turns you will often have won the game because that is enough to get Iona going. I really don't see this matchup being a problem, but if you (like me) often have problems with Wastelands or not drawing enough lands just play 22 Lands/ 60 cards.
- Venice's Aggro Loam boarding plan is one of the weirdest things Ive seen but I guess it worked out. I would have never ever thought about siding Shusher in (instead of Yard hate) and I am still unsure.
- Snief: there is no need to Disard Faerie so early. Doing it in response to his Reanimation spell will completely wreck him (as a Mono B deck he can't even Stifle).
Yeah, right, but Iīm always a bit nervous round 1 and never played against Reanimator with this Deck before. Thus it was not the perfect decission, but still a right one :)
Boarding against Loam is very difficult I think and highly depends on their build (5c, RGB, Bant Loam?). I donīt know either if the sideboarding is right, but it looks like it worked.
Children of Korlis helps against ANT, but only if it is protected by MoR. So the conclusion, cutting them or playing less is right.
Getting Ripped by a single Mother Game One was kind of Sad. And you really drew lucky with double Survival here.
Game 2 was just a mess. I shouldn't have keept that 1-Lander and I'm a bit sad, that you keept a One-Hander yourself, but ripped another Sword and 2 Wastelands to totally screw me...
Of course my Props as well for winning your Byes. See you next week in Hassloch!
Sneaky Pirates of Doom - Everything is better with Pirates!
Driver of the Team SPOD World Raiding Tour
What about a single Scryb Ranger instead of quirion ranger? It works excelent with mother, noble and reliquary, but also it has proteccion from merfolks, with flash you can untap a big goyf or reliquary to block, and it has flying which is great with all exalted guys and specially with jitte.
I donīt ever needed a creature with pro:merfolk because itīs a good matchup anyway. Everything else Quirion Ranger does as good as the faerie; flying is/was never relevant to me. Nonetheless, test it and maybe it works for you.
Flash, Flying and pro-U make the complete difference.
My current version with my SB strategies:
// Lands
4 [U] Savannah
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [7E] Forest (2)
1 [MI] Plains (3)
1 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [TE] Wasteland
3 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
// Creatures
4 [FNM] Mother of Runes
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
2 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 [P3] Loyal Retainers
// Spells
4 [U] Swords to Plowshares
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 2 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 5 Yard Hate (1 [SHM] Wheel of Sun and MoonS, 1 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap, 1 [SHM] Faerie Macabre, 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog, 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt)
MD
- 22 lands feel right, also because Merfolks and Canadians best shot against the deck is Mana Denial
- I didn't always like Qasali Pridemage (bad against Canadian, Zoo, Dredge; only average vs. both Tribal decks even if they draw Vial) so I went down to 2.
- 2 MD Elspeth's feel good as an addional threat that can give the big guys evasion, important against Countertop and other Control strategies
- I was never a fan of 1-offs so I don't want to cut better cards for Quirion or Scryb Ranger
SB:
- the Yard hate is split in 5 to get around Dredge answers; I think a good Dredge matchup is important for a Meta deck so I feel fine with dedicating extra slots to it
- the 1 Tutor comes in against Combo and everything that does not play Islands
Also note that I often side out the Iona/Retainers combo. That has 2 reasons: First is that post board the opponent will be likely to stop Survival or our Graveyard and second is that I don't like to side out solid cards for specific SB hate, it often weakens the main game plan. The Combo is best in G1 when the opponent can't do anything about it.
Countertop
Finks are outclassed by their creatures and Survival will usually be prevented by them, so Finks and Iona go out. If they play red for Firespout leave Finks in instead of Teegs.
- 2 Loyal Iona
- 2 Finks
+ 1 Teeg
+ 3 Krosan Grip
Canadian: Qasali does nearly nothing and Iona would have to name blue against the 4 Submerge they side in. Also unlikely to get on the board because they will keep a Spell Snare in reserve for Survival if they can. If you get Survival massing Finks and Goyf is just fine. Bog comes in to make colorless Mana and shrink Mongeese. PtE is good even though they play Geese because if you can handle their Goyfs they will have a hard time dealing damage with Nimble Mongoose against MoR, Goyf, Finks and KotR. Can also target your own creatures when in despair for Mana.
- 2 Loyal Iona
- 2 Qasali
- 1 Elspeth
+ 1 Bojuka Bog
+ 2 PtE
+ 2 Finks
Zoo
Qasali can stay because of Relic while Iona is just not needed, if Survival + Yard are both ok then we can just mass Finks or Goyfs instead.
- 2 Elspeth
- 2 Iona / Retainers
- 1 Teeg
+ 1 E Tutor
+ 2 PtE
+ 2 Finks
Merfolk
They will have 4 Relics postboard, so relying on Yard is not what we want. Elspeth is too slow.
-2 Elspeth
- 2 Loyal Iona
+ 2 PtE
+ 2 Finks
Dredge: Preboard the matchup is very reliant on Survival or randomly drawing Teeg and they are sometimes just too fast. But Postboard it feels very good, Yard hate plus good blockers blus Jitte will usually win.
- 2 Elspeth
- 2 Pridemage
- 2 KotR
- 1 Witness
+ 1 Teeg
+ 1 E. Tutor
+ 5 Yard Hate
ANT: Meh. Not much to say, avoid the matchup.
- 4 Swords to Plowshares (unless you fear Confidant)
+ 1 Teeg
+ 1 Enlightened Tutor
+ 1 Faerie Macabre (if they get overconfident that you can't do anything and don't play around Faerie you might sneak a win by meddling with Cabal Ritual or respond to Ill-Gotten Gains targets)
+ 1 Ethersworn Canonist
Goblins: I tested a few games and was positively surprised. Unless they play with 4 Warren Weirding the matchup is clearly positive. MoR, Goyf, Finks and KotR dominate the board and especially KotR gets very big. Unless they connected with Lackey or have Vial against a subpar draw I was always able to keep being ahead on the board.
- 2 Elspeth
- 1 Teeg
- 1 KotR
- 1 Qasali Pridemage
+ 1 E Tutor
+ 2 Finks
+ 2 PtE
Last edited by Tao; 02-19-2010 at 04:36 PM.
Hey guys! Iīm just cominīback from our monthly Haßloch tournament. 43 players attended, so we had to play 6 rounds of Swiss. I didnīt take much notes, so Iīll take the shortcut...
I finished 5-0-1 piloting the GW-Survival once more to a pretty decent 2nd place (due to bad opp score; the guy who won also had 16 points in the end) and ended up picking a minty Volcanic Island! ;)
My Match-Ups were:
Round 1: BWR "Rock" kind of built feat. Sinkhole, Wastes, Tabernacle, Crucible, Ajani Vegeant and stuff... I win 2-0
Round 2: Sven aka "Snief" with GW Survival. We donīt want to play it out => ID
Round 3: Dragon Stompy 2-0
Round 4: Imperial Painter 2-0
Round 5: Team America 2-0
Round 6: ANT 2-1
I was VERY satisfied with my list this time, even more than last week, since I made some minor tweaks. For now I wouldnīt change a single card mainboard, only one SB Slot is still debatable but will probably stay there for Madrid. I will probably post the list when Iīm back from the Grand Prix.
The funny thing is: if Snief had won his last round (he also was 4-0-1 after round 5) we would have been place 1 and 2 once again!
Last edited by venice; 02-21-2010 at 05:11 PM.
Not so lucky for me this weekend. I finished 3-2-2 in a 96 player tournament. I haven't had time to win 2 rounds (zoo and Natural order bant, 1-1) so only 11 points, but also only losing 2 rounds, which is not so bad in a big tournament. The loses have been ANT and Team America.Hey guys! Iīm just cominīback from our monthly Haßloch tournament. 43 players attended, so we had to play 6 rounds of Swiss. I didnīt take much notes, so Iīll take the shortcut...
I finished 5-0-1 piloting the GW-Survival once more to a pretty decent 2nd place (due to bad opp score; the guy who won also had 16 points in the end) and ended up picking a minty Volcanic Island! ;)
My Match-Ups were:
Round 1: BWR "Rock" kind of built feat. Sinkhole, Wastes, Tabernacle, Crucible, Ajani Vegeant and stuff... I win 2-0
Round 2: Sven aka "Snief" with GW Survival. We donīt want to play it out => ID
Round 3: Dragon Stompy 2-0
Round 4: Imperial Painter 2-0
Round 5: ITF 2-0
Round 6: ANT 2-1
I was VERY satisfied with my list this time, even more than last week, since I made some minor tweaks. For now I wouldnīt change a single card mainboard, only one SB Slot is still debatable but will probably stay there for Madrid. I will probably post the list when Iīm back from the Grand Prix.
The funny thing is: if Snief had won his last round (he also was 4-0-1 after round 5) we would have been place 1 and 2 once again!
I've tested scryb ranger and I've liked it. The surprise effect is great, and it has won me a match against reanimator. I am a bit worried about ANT match up because I have nothing to do with it. I'm starting thinking in make some sideboard changes, adding chalice of the void or the blue trap. Gaddog is not enough and choke maybe it is not so usefull in the current meta (because noble hierarch is all around) and maybe I'll cut them in the Sb for more stuff against ANT and zoo for Gp Madrid.
@Tao: You state that you are not a fan of 1-offs, and you also said that in G1, if you have an Survival, Iona is Plan A-X. So, without Survival, Gaddock Teeg is mostly a random 1-off and with Survival, you're going Iona anyway. What's the reasoning for 1 Gaddock MD? I would switch it for 1 additional Kitchen Finks probably, as you could still side in Gaddock in the relevant MUs.
My Anti-Combo SB would probably be 3 Gaddock/3 Canonists, as this split enables T1 Mom into T2 Anti-Combo-Bear. So SB would probably be:
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Ethersworn Canonists
3 Krosan Grip
5 Anti-GY (not sure about the split)
1 Kitchen Finks
any comments on that?
Also any words on LoamPox? Honestly I'm not too happy about this MU on paper.
I was playing the deck this weekend too, in our local store. 22 people, 5 rounds.
I finished 5-0 (10-2) which was place 1.
List i've played:
// Lands
3 Savannah
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
2 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Forest
// Creatures
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Qasali Pridemage
1 Loyal Retainers
4 Mother of Runes
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
// Spells
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Umezawa's Jitte
// Sideboard
SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Spore Frog
SB: 1 Genesis
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Choke
SB: 1 Dueling Grounds
SB: 1 Faerie Macabre
My match-ups were:
Round 1: UWr Landstill 2-1
Round 2: Bant-survival with Iona 2-0
Round 3: UWrb Landstill 2-0
Round 4: BGW-goodstuff 2-0
Round 5: Dredge 2-1
It was a lot of fun to play the deck, but i was lucky not to get paired with one of the combo decks. I also don't think 3 or even 4 teegs are enough to give us a good matchup to combodecks. Next Time i definitly play only 3 Wastelands and add another Horizon Canopy and add 1 or 2 Canonists in the Sideboard agains ANT.
@Snief and Venice. Too bad that snief lost a game, but still congratulations. I guess it is time for established deck forum, I think I'll write to a mod.
@Phillip:
Both Teeg and either Ranger have about the same strength against a random deck when drawn. Ranger usually does some shenanigans with MoR or KotR or saves you from Wasteland, and Teeg is good because every Deck to beat plays a card that gets shut down by Gaddock, even Zoo can't Fireblast you with Gaddock on the board. But Gaddock is an absolute key card against Combo and Dredge, often the only chance to win G1 while Ranger is more of a toy.
Going overboard on the ANT hate seems not the best use of SB slots. I don't know how Snief managed to beat ANT, but I think it is better to strengthen the good matchups even more instead of dedicating 6 slot to make a bad matchup go from 25% to 40%. After losing G1 they are on the play in G3 and might just kill you before you get down your first hate bear. But if you want to dedicate more slots I would advice to play 2 Enlightened Tutor / 1 Canonist instead of 3 Canonist. The Tutor can also grab Yard hate against Dredge or Jittes and Survivals against any nonblue deck. Another good SB acard against Combo is Thorn of Amethyst. With Tutor the 1 Crypt, 1 Wheel of Sun and Moon (both for E Tutor), 1 Faerie Macabre (Survival), 1 Bojuka Bog (KotR), 1 Ravenous Trap split very good.
Edit: @Rigero: Well done, another great finish, I think I'll make a count o the tournament results posted in this thread.
Actually, it was me beating ANT not Snief. ;)
However, both wins were due to Mother of Runes + Gaddock Teeg on turn 2. ^^ I think that start is possibly the only way of winning this match, and still then itīs not save yet if they have wipe away or double bounce for instance.
From my experience with the deck I totally agree that even with six or more SB cards the ANT Matchup remains bad, since the deck is just too fast. Thus, I would not recommend overextending SB space for it.
Woohooo...Established Decks Forum!
As venice already pointed out, I piloted the deck to a solid 4th place in our monthly tournament with 43 players this time.
Round 1: Bant with Painter/Grindstone(?) 2-1
Round 2: GW Survival (venice) ID
Round 3: Dragonstompy 2-0
Round 4: Cat Tribal (spirit of the wretch) 2-0
Round 5: Enchantress 2-1
Round 6: TTT 0-2
I can only repeat that every aggro matchup should be positive with the list venice and me are playing. Even the Tempothresh last round should be pretty even, but I managed to draw multiple lands and only MoR/Hierarchs in both games, so I had not enough pressure. Combo is not very good for us but I think after boarding it can be manageable, speaking of Dredge and ANT. Enchantress is a pretty bad matchup, although I managed to win it (with very lucky draws and my opponent screwed the last game). I was also surprised that Dragonstompy seems to be a better matchup than I thought.
One thing I have to disagree with is Taos statement about boarding out Iona+Retainers. I would never (read: Never!) do that, just because it can win games on its own. Also I would not play Choke, even in a list with E.tutor, because most of the time you want to be the aggressive deck, not the one which stalls the game.But maybe this is just my approach of playing the deck.
As a SB I woul suggest sth like:
-4 grave hate (Crypt/Macabre/BojukaBog)
-x Gaddock Teeg (should be 3-4 Main+SB)
-x Krosan Grip (3 looks right to me now)
-1 Ethersworn Canonist
-1 Spore Frog
-x Cards depending on your playstyle
Boarding plan Canadian:
You should also consider to board in Gaddock Teeg, depending on your opponents build. My opponent boarded Submerge+Explosives against me, so Teeg is shining here.
@Rigero: Gratz for your result. I also like your maindeck :-) How was Maze of Ith for you?
I love it. It's nice against Tombstalker, other flying creatures and Dreadnoughts. It helps in many situations when we need some time after a firespout or a pernicious deed. I don't want to miss it again, because i win a lot of testgames with it, when searching for it with the KotR.
Is Counterbalance a very good card against this deck? If not I would definitely suggest Aura of Silence over K grip, to greatly improve your Enchantress matchup (and Affinity, which can always be randomly run into). It is also not a dead card against Combo, as it pretty much shuts off their Lotus Petals/LED, making AdN math much more difficult for them.
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