Disclaimer
This opening post is mostly a translation of the opening post of the same thread in a french forum made by the creator of the deck (Frédéric Perez). For a better understanding, I changed "I" with "Fred" and I also did not translate the parts that I did not agree at all. However, there remain some parts that I don't fully agree. You'll probably understand well with my second post that explains what I'm playing right now.
Bant Loam: the established deckTable of Contents
- Introduction and Background Information
- An established deck
- Genesis
- The deck
- The List
- Card Choices
- Main Deck : other possibilities
- Side-board: some ideas
- Matchup Analysis
An established deck
For those who wonder why this deck is posted into the "established deck" area, the reason is simple: the list makes results since it has been created, a lot actually given the fact it has not been played a lot, and with different pilots. All these results were made in France. You can start bitching about how bad the french metagame is, but the reality is that it has performed only in France because it is the only place where it has been played. The first results were made by its creator Frédéric Perez (not me) during April/May 2009. He played it at the BOM3 but he faced too many aggro loam to expect doing anything. Long story short, Frédéric Perez had a lot of success fast and he made top4 4 times (in tourneys of average 30-50 people) until July. Then, a bunch of players (including me) were seduced by the list and performed in tourney also in several top4. But the biggest performances of the deck are definitely since mid-October. The first was a win at a 112-player tournament in Bourgoin-Jallieu, placed another Bant Loam list in top8 (and I made 9th, first eliminated with a laregely inpired black version of Bant Loam). And the second was another win at the GP side-event with 161 people (here I did 2 wins, 2 draws, 1 loss, 1 drop with a classic Bant Loam list). The only time the deck has been played out of France, it finished 10th at the Ovino with near 300 people. In France, we class this deck in the deck to beat area.
Genesis
Last year, Fred worked on a tempoloam URg with stifles, wastes, loam, fire.ice, countryside crusher, tarmos... because he liked a lot the waste/loam + stifle synergy, because intuition was a tutor for the lands and the creatures (as opposed to Burning Wish), and because stifle owned Deed, which was quite hype at this time.
He finally was not convinced by this deck which alternated huge games with awful ones and because it was too much colour requiring (and there was no ZEN fetches at this time), and most of all it had only the tempo game plan. It was fast overruned in long games. Eventually, it was weaker than Canadian Thresh and Aggro Loam, and he decided not to insist.
As soon as Knight of the Reliquary has been spoilered, it was clear for him that it would be the cornerstone of this new deck. It's Terravore + Crop Rotation (-evasion). Here started the idea of a loam deck in the Bant colours with intuition, maybe crop rotation and a land toolbox in the Eternal Garden way.
Then, the Bant creatures (Qasali Pridemage, Rhox War Monk, Noble Hierarch) enabled to choose a different game plan given the game state, because they are all multitask, from aggro to heavy control.
This deck is finally a good summary of the legacy evolution these last years, gathering good old spells (Intuition, Swords to Plowshares, The Tabernacle of Pendrel Vale, Maze of Ith, Wasteland) with good new creatures (Tarmogoyf, Knight of the Reliquary, Noble Hierarch, Qasali Pridemage) and some new mechanics of recursion (retrace, dredge, planeswalker).
The deck
The deck is difficult to play with, and difficult to play against, first of all because (or thanks to) its versatility. Not only we have the choice of various game plans in a single MU, but these game plans are different depending of your opening hand. As a consequence, you have to know well all the deck mechanisms to foresee which game plan is optimal. Not always obvious. A lot of players will have the bad reflex to play it as a control deck, simply because it can endorse this role. But often, the best call is to play turn 1 qasali off mox diamond and play noble hierarch only after just to deal 3 more damages on turn 2.
Usually, the deck prefers to put the opponent on pressure early (either on mana denial or on fast beaters). Then, once you've made your opponent waste his hand to deal with your early game, you can start the card advantage and heavy control plan. It's a bit what my sport teacher said about the Cooper test (12 minutes to run the most distance you can): start fast, keep your rhythm high, and sprint in the end. On the contrary to me, the deck can really handle this kind of versatility.
The list
Card choicesCode:4 Windswept Heath 2 Flooded Strand 1 Misty Rainforest 2 Tropical Island 1 Savannah (or 2) 2 Tundra (or 1) 1 Plains 1 Forest 4 Wasteland 1 Mishra's Factory 3 Tranquil Thicket 1 Secluded Steppe 3 Mox Diamond 3 Noble Hierarch 4 Knight of the Reliquary 4 Qasali Pridemage 4 Tarmogoyf 3 Elspeth, Knight Errant 1 Cenn's Enlistment 1 Eternal Witness 1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale 1 Maze of Ith 4 Swords to plowshares 3 Stifle 1 Rushing river 2 Life from the loam 2 Intuition (or 3) 1 Crop rotation (or 0)
Mana base
7 Fetches: Well, at first glance, one can think that 7 fetches for 7 targets is really short in a loam deck, but actually it is not. The first reason is that the first land drop you want to make is often forest then plains. Then, because during the aggro or aggro/tempo game plan it is important to have lands in graveyard for Knight of the Reliquary. It also good to purify the deck quite fast with Knight of the Reliquary/
2 Tropical island, 1 Savanah, 2 Tundra, 1 Plains, 1 Forest: It is the usual configuration but in a Merfolk metagame, where you don't want to play islands 1 Tundra and 2 Savannah is a better split.
4 Wasteland: It's good either with loam, with Knight of the Reliquary as mana denial or again with Knight of the Reliquary to give it +3/+3 as a blocker..
1 Mishra's factory: good here as the only recursive beater.
Cycling lands: instant boost for knight, draw engine with loam. You all understands this, I guess.
3 Mox, 3 hierarch: Why only 3 of each? Here is the simple answer: you want 2 mox in opening hand only if you have 2 lands + life from the loam (rare) or 3 lands + intuition (very rare). So in most cases, it's awful. Quite the same reasoning can be made with 2 noble hierarch en main de départ. Although, you'll like 1 Hierarch and 1 Mox.
As fast mana, these slots enable to insist on the tempo game plan. It is also usually a good call to avoid daze. You can play a turn 2 daze-proof Qasali quite easily against countertop, or to keep open mana for cycling, stifle or swords to plowshare.
As a colour fixer, these slots make mana denial strategies very weak against this deck and make us confidant about fetching basics. Another important thing is the fact that the deck can survive easily without playing any island.
Individually, these cards are in synergy with the rest of the deck: Mox Diamond is excellent with Life from the Loam and it boosts knight, while Hierrarch is exalted and serves as a protection against edict like removal (Warren Weirding, Gatekeeper of Malakir). don't forget the strength of an aggro start Hierarch + Qasali. It's real aggro.
The body of the deck:
4 Knight of the Reliquary: the cornerstone of the deck. It's strange that legacy players do not play it more. This card is very good as aggro (almost always at least a 4/4 for 3). It's also very good as a control card, as a strong blocker and a crop rotation on legs (Maze, Tabernacle, Mishra, Wasteland). It can also enable some tricks or generate a mana to fight daze. It's not good because you want to do it, it's good because you can do it. And we won't insist on the various combat tricks in attack or in block. It can also get rid of islands against Merfolk or forests in anticipation to Submerge.
4 Tarmogoyf: Fast and big aggro card. Also good as control. Actually in this deck, the aggro plan is most of all supported by an exalted creature and either Knight is better at that or Qasali can also take this role. So that Tarmogoyf remains often in defense to block the opposing aggro mode.
4 Qasali Pridemage: Another card that can take different game roles. First, excellent in the role of an exalted weenie creature. At worst it's a watchwolf. Its exaltation enables use also to attack with Tarmogoyf and win the Goyf war. Great against countertop in a deck that plays 6 fast mana cards.These first roles are the main reasons why Fred plays 4 of them, even if its ability to get rid of more random (but numerous) cards such as Confinement, Moat, Crucible,... is very reassuring. It also forces the RR and deed players to play and crack them directly, which is often a problem against Bant Loam that plays so much mana denial. Qasali is also good at protecting our graveyard (the main grave hate are Leyline of the Void, Planar Void, Relic of Progenitus, Tormod's Crypt).
3 Elspeth, Knight Errant: Another serious contender of the deck. Impressive as in the aggro mode (knight 10/10 flying, but also qasali 6/6 or 7/7 flying). It's also great against control which can't deal with everything. As it is generally the last card we play we can hope it won't be counterspelled and once in play it's just the nightmare of the control player. Another nice aspect is that it generally pass through Counterbalance. So it's good as an aggressive tool, but don't forget how good it is as a control element. You get 1 chumpblocker per turn. In the worst situations, it earns you 2 or 3 fogs. Its ultimate is scary too even if we generally kill before it can be played. The ultimate is even better with the nex Tabernacle oracle (that says destroy instead of sacrifice). It's played as a 3-of because we want to be able to play intuition on it and because it's rearely a bad card.
1 Eternal Witness: First of all, no, witness is not here for intuitionning on a card that you have only *2. It's not forbidden to use it like this though. The main reason it's here it's because it's like a tutor in the deck. It's also a great topdeck.
1 Cenn's Enlistment: we used to play Worm Harvest during a long time but I suggested in august to give a try to Cenn's Enlistment. The reasons are: you don't always have lands in graveyard, it's 1CC less, it's easier to have W that GGG, it passes thought counterbalance more easily, it can attack through Elephant Grass and it does not die to Perish (very important). Once again it finds some use in different ways: it's difficult to deal with for control, it's also a chumpblocker factory. Its reduced mana cost makes it usable in gob, where Worm Harvest is really really difficult to play.
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale: everybody knows this card. It's extremely powerful. In this deck it can be double edged sometimes. You have to decide when you need it. This card particularly shines in the tribal, elfball and Ichorid MU. It's also good at preventing your opponent fro mplaying spells while you hold the board. As said earlier, its oracle text has changed and now indestructibility provided by Elspeth makes your creatures immune to Tabernacle. The idea is definitely not to topdeck this card but to find it when you need it.
1 Maze of Ith: this card is really awesome. We can untap a creature that has attacked and dealt its damage at the end combat step, either to block, or to use the knight ability (or both).
4 Swords to plowshares: I think you got it.
3 Stifle: This slot has been debated a lot. It's another versatile card. Its main use is for mana denial of course but it's also a defense against sweepers such as explosives and deed. It also protects your own mana base from opposing wastes. It helps against storm, it plays tempo against jitte, shackles or vial. A good tech to fizzle ultimate of planeswalkers. It can save also a spell against countertop. Post SB, it owns the best grave hate spells: relic and tormod.
1 Rushing River: Another good topdeck. It provides a temporary solution to everything.
2 Life from the loam: Life from the Loam serves several game plans in the deck: waste lock, fight against opposing mana denial, retrace, intuition piles, CA with cycling lands. However, it is rarely game plan number 1. It's just here to provide plan B to the deck.
2 Intuition: Here again, two main utilities: tutors 3 times for a direct threat in order to kill fast. Or build strong life from the loam stacks and tutors for 3 cards at once at instant speed. It can also boost your creatures with knight in play make a pile with 1 life from the loam and 2*tranquil thicket you're sure to give it +2/+2. The same with tarmogoyf, you generally can tutor stuff to make it +1/+1 or +2/+2.
1 Crop rotation: it's another instant speed tutor, but a cheap one that serves also other purposes: gives from +1/+1 to +3/+3 to knight.
Main Deck: other possibilities
Fred tested a lot of other options. Some were far-fetched (Bant Charm, Wild Mongrel, Waterfront Bouncer), some were good cards but did not fit the deck (Oblivion ring, Rafiq), some are options that he still considers feasible. Here are some:
"Control" version of Bant Loam: this list had some results (top8ed the 112 players tournament in Bourgoin Jallieu). Calling it control is an exaggeration. Let's basically say it's a slightly more control version. The biggest difference is the insertion of the academy ruins + engineered explosives + sensei's divining top in the list. It's still not clear what MU it helps since we already beat control decks with the retrace spell and Elspeth. Maybe it gives another option to get rid of counterbalance, if not set too early. Against Merfolk it can also be a winner. If you choose to follow this variant Trinket Mage can really be good (even if it's not included in the list usually). Fred used to play academy ruins+EE but he was not satisfied by them eventually.
Cunning Wish: tested in replacement of Elspeth. Cunning Wish on Berserk as a bit the same use as aggro Elspeth (kill fast) but it's far more fragile: sensible to creature removal. Elspeth was preferred for 2 reasons: it's better against control and because the blue cards are limited as far as possible.
Trygon Predator: it's very good. In replacement of Qasali probably, but the problem is this one: Trygon Predator is better with exalted. Fred would like to find 1 slot for it MD.
Jotun Grunt MD: Grunt is really good in the deck. Tarmogoyf was preferred because it's easier to play 4 tarmo than 4 Jotun. A split 2-2 is really possible, but the problem we could see is that Jotun is not good as a blocker (because it won't block eternally). As an aggro card it can end the game really fast with exalted and Elspeth.
Spell Pierce MD: In replacement of Stifle. This choice is extensively debated later when I present my list.
Kitchen Finks: if your metagame is full of burn, sligh, gob and zoo, then you must play it. It's big and resilient with exaltation. It's good as a blocker. It's just a bit weak compared to other 3CC cards in the deck. It's played *2 MD in the control version.
Splash B: at its start the deck had a double splash ub. Volrath's Stronghold was sexy and Fleshbag Marauder, Darkblast, Stinkweed Imp looked like good options. And B is also agood colour for the SB. But eventually, the mana base was really difficult. The best if you want to play B, then drop U. That's what I played at the 112 people event, with entomb playing the role of intuition, dark confidant replacing numerically the stifle and MD darkblast, top*3, ... The list had a lot of differences with this one actually. Finally, I dropped it because Dark confidant was not that good and because plague in SB were not that hot neither. I was a bit disappointed by the list, especially in the tribal MU which was the reason why I made it in the first place.
Lorescale Coatl: simply awful in the deck. Serves nothing. No evasion, too long to be big (we don't have counterbalance to wait, nor brainstorm to speed up its growth).
Side-board: some ideas
The slots are always moving and highly metagame dependant.
2 (3) Burrenton Forge-Tender: against burn, zoo, gob, aggro loam and Ichorid's bridges (I recall that it does not target so that you can sacrifice it without any red source to prevent).
2 (3) Meddling Mage: against combo, of course. Don't dream, the ANT or TES MUs are too difficult for it to be credible, but against other comboes (Natural Order, enchantress, Painter, Scepter Chant,…). It's entered in a lot of MU because it cuts game breaking spells (humility, perish, …).
1 Gaddock Teeg: a bit the same as Meddling Mage.
2 (1) Engineered explosives: against merfolk, Ichorid, Chalice.dec, mirror, aggroloam, enchantress, elves.
1 Stifle: It's likely that this slot will be replaced with Spell Pierces but it was a good option against combo and MUs where you want your mana denial to be efficient.
1 Path to exile: against aggro, dreadnought.dec, merfolk, elves, aggroloam.
1 Mox diamond: in order to boost the first turns. Against combo, obviously but also Dragon Stompy (to help to have coloured mana) and Aggro Loam.
2 Jotun Grunt: when you want to deal with your opponent's graveyard. Aggro Loam, mirror, survival, Ichorid, good against Ad Nauseam too, since it hits strong fast and prevent them to reach threshold for cabal ritual or play the IGG plan too easily.
1 Enlightened tutor: with a enchantment/artifact toolbox. We tend to dislike it these last days because it makes card disadvantage and it's not combo with intuition.
1 Ethersworn cannonist: against storm and enchantress.
1 COP red: against burn, gob and Progenitus (can buy you some turns, the time your opponent finds a solution).
1 Worship: it used to be good in a lot of red MUs, but now qasali is everywhere and it's a bit weaker. It was also a bit too slow in a lot of cases.
1 (2) Tormod's crypt: Against Ichorid (buys you some time) and reanimator (even if it's not a complete solution since Exhume + Imp enables to dodge it).
1 Propaganda/Ghostly prison: Really good but not to forget that it does not protect Eslpeth. You often enter it in MUs where Elspeth is too slow (Ichorid, tribal).
1 Dueling grounds: it comboes nicely with Maze of Ith, Exaltation, Elspeth. However I don't see in which MUs it's better than Propaganda.
3 (4) Spell Pierce: if you don't play it MD, you can play them in SB.
Even if he wants to leave his enlightened tutor toolbox, Fred's last SB was: 2 burrenton forge-tender, 2 MM, 1 ethersworn cannonist, 1 Gaddock Teeg, 2 EE, 1 Stifle, 1 Path to exile, 1 Mox diamond, 1 Jotun Grunt, 1 Enlightnened tutor, 1 COP Red, 1 Tormod's crypt.
If he'd make a tourney without any precise idea of the metagame, he'd play with: 1 Mox diamond, 3 (4?) spell Pierce, 2 (3?) Meddling Mage, 1 (2?) engineered explosives, 1 Path to exile, 2 Ethersworn cannonist, 2 Jotun Grunt, 2 Burrenton Forge-tender, 1(0?) Dueling grounds
Match-ups analysis
In fast, ANT and TES are really awful. Aggro Loam, Reanimator and Survival/Natural Order are negative too. Humility Landstill is quite balanced, the same about Gobs with Perish. Ugr countertop goyf is balanced too. The rest ranges from slightly positive to very positive (the best one is Tempo Thresh). I will describe them in later posts on the basis of my version of the deck (which is obviously far better ;-).
Last edited by Maveric78f; 01-14-2010 at 05:13 AM.
Bant Loam: variants
The deck that won the side event of CDF in Bourgoin Jallieu (112 people) was exactly the deck in the opening post save that it played 60 cards and 0 Rushing River.
Table of Contents
- The control variant
- The Gwb variant
- The flying utilities variant
The control variant
The control variant that top8ed at the side event of CDF in Bourgoin Jallieu (112 people):
The Gwb variantCode:1 Academy Ruins 1 Forest 1 Island 1 Maze of Ith 1 Plains 1 Secluded Steppe 1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale 1 Tundra 2 Savannah 2 Tranquil Thicket 2 Tropical Island 3 Flooded Strand 4 Wasteland 4 Windswept Heath 2 Kitchen Finks 3 Noble Hierarch 3 Qasali Pridemage 4 Knight of the Reliquary 4 Tarmogoyf 2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant 1 Engineered Explosives 1 Sensei's Divining Top 3 Mox Diamond 2 Intuition 3 Stifle 4 Swords to Plowshares 1 Worm Harvest 2 Life from the Loam SB: 1 Maze of Ith SB: 3 Burrenton Forge-Tender SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt SB: 2 Rushing River SB: 1 Circle of Protection: Red SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte SB: 1 Ghostly Prison SB: 1 Propaganda SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
The Gbw variant I played at the side event of CDF in Bourgoin Jallieu (112 people) and with which I finished 9th not top8ing for 1%:
The flying utilities variantCode:// Lands 24 4 [ON] Windswept Heath 4 [TE] Wasteland 1 [DK] Maze of Ith 2 [ON] Tranquil Thicket 1 [ON] Secluded Steppe 2 [R] Savannah 1 [9E] Forest (3) 1 [R] Scrubland 1 [US] Gaea's Cradle 1 [6E] Plains (3) 1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold 2 [ON] Wooded Foothills 3 [R] Bayou // Creatures 19 4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary 4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf 2 [FD] Eternal Witness 3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage 4 [RAV] Dark Confidant 2 Noble Hierarch // Spells 17 1 Elspeth, Knight Errant 3 [SH] Mox Diamond 4 [R] Swords to Plowshares 2 [RAV] Life from the Loam 3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top 1 Worm's Harvest 2 [OD] Entomb 1 Darkblast // Sideboard 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist SB: 3 [MI] Enlightened Tutor SB: 1 [CH] Tormod's Crypt SB: 1 [10E] Pithing Needle 3 Engineered Plague 1 Engineered Explosives 1 Exploration 1 Stinkweed Imp 1 Aura of Silence 1 ??? (can't remember)
A flying utilities variant (beats combo including ANT) that I tested on MWS. It was never tested in tournament. I don't think I will, but it's interesting list. The loss of Elspeth is really a problem. The main skeleton of the deck is what I play right now and you might want to refer to the next post to understand my choices. The difference between those 2 lists are:
-2 Savannah
+2 Tropical Island
-1 Eternal Witness
-1 Intuition
+2 Vendilion Clique
-3 Elspeth
+3 Aven Mindcensor
Mindcensor and Clique play the role of the evasive beaters while being good utilities in themsleves. They carry the exaltation. They are also non-green which is nice against Perish. I found out that the flash option was really strong as few players expect this deck to have instants. And bounces are useless against Aven, granted that I keep 2W open of course. Aven is really a plea for ANT, not being able to fetch reliably, nor to play mystical/or infernal tutor. Even once Ad Nauseam resolved it's harder for them to find their Tendrils. It's weaker against TES of course since their best tutor is Burning Wish. What I like the most about this version is that it makes easier all the difficult MUs: Natural Order, Survival, Combo, even Aggro Loam that won't be able to expand its mana base as it likes to do thanks to the fetches (well Elspeth was not bad neither in this MU) and Vendilion Clique is a serious threat for them both because it can't block it and because it removes their engine: Life from the Loam. I still have not given up this list, but I would not consider it as the top 1 as it is.Code:// Lands 4 [R] Tropical Island 1 [R] Tundra 4 [ON] Windswept Heath 3 [TE] Wasteland 1 [DK] Maze of Ith 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale 3 [ON] Tranquil Thicket 2 [R] Savannah 1 [9E] Forest (3) 1 [US] Gaea's Cradle 3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest // Creatures 4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary 4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf 4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage 4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch 2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique 3 [FUT] Aven Mindcensor // Spells 3 [SH] Mox Diamond 4 [R] Swords to Plowshares 2 [RAV] Life from the Loam 2 [TE] Intuition 1 [EVE] Worm Harvest 3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce // Sideboard SB: 1 [DK] Maze of Ith SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives SB: 2 [CS] Jotun Grunt SB: 2 [ARC] Blue Elemental Blast SB: 1 [UL] Crop Rotation SB: 1 [CHK] Ghostly Prison SB: 1 [TE] Propaganda SB: 1 [5E] Hydroblast
Last edited by Maveric78f; 01-14-2010 at 05:12 AM.
Bant Loam: my take on thisThis third post presents the variant I consider as the optimal right now.
Table of Contents
- The List
- Card Choices
- Extensive matchup Analysis
The List
Cards choicesCode:// Lands 2 [R] Tropical Island 1 [R] Tundra 4 [ON] Windswept Heath 3 [TE] Wasteland 1 [DK] Maze of Ith 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale 3 [ON] Tranquil Thicket 4 [R] Savannah 1 [9E] Forest (3) 1 [US] Gaea's Cradle 3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest // Creatures 4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary 4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf 4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage 4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch 1 [FD] Eternal Witness 3 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant // Spells 3 [SH] Mox Diamond 4 [R] Swords to Plowshares 2 [RAV] Life from the Loam 3 [TE] Intuition 1 [EVE] Worm Harvest 3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce // Sideboard SB: 1 [DK] Maze of Ith SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives SB: 2 [CS] Jotun Grunt SB: 2 [ARC] Blue Elemental Blast SB: 1 [UL] Crop Rotation SB: 1 [CHK] Ghostly Prison SB: 1 [TE] Propaganda SB: 1 [5E] Hydroblast
The changes from the opening post's list:
-1 mishra +1 gaea's cradle (because it's strong in itself, because it enables you to play Tabernacle more easily, because you can tutor for it and it's huge with Worm Harvest)
-1 wasteland +1 dual land (I have often colour problems on MWS even if I can't believe it's real stats)
-1 plains +1 dual land (I really need green a lot, and plains is not really required...)
- I need a lot of G, and WW quite soon too. I fnid the dual land split very strange in the original list. I can't expalin this to myself. Even when playing Cenn's Enlistment, green should be the primary colour of the deck. Basically, up to now, all these choices are consequences of the fact that I play the Worm Harvest + Gaea's Cradle combo (which can really be considered as a combo, when you're able to put on the battlefield 20+ tokens every turn.
-1 cycling replaced with Noble Hierarch. I wanted to improve the 3 and 4CC spells explosivity and once more impove the mana base (even if, I know, I can't rely on 0/1 bodies). It's also better to have more mana dudes with Gaea's Cradle. I removed Secluded Steppe for the obvious reason that Gaea's Cradle produces tons of green. I don't care about needle on the cycling because the deck rarely takes the option of cycling finally, and needle has usually far better targets (Wasteland, Elspeth, Explosives, Qasali).
-1 Crop Rotation +1 Intuition, I find intuition really better in my build. The stack Life from the Loam/Gaea's Cradle/Worm Harvest is really great.
-1 Rushing River, because I like 60 cards lists.
-3 Stifle +3 Spell Pierce, this has been debated a lot on our forums. I personally prefer Spell Pierce by far.
About the SB, it's still a bit experimental. The first idea is that I found enlightened tutor quite bad. So I made my toolboxes as *2 which enables the witness+2 stack with intuition but the main idea is that I have more chances to draw them. Maze#2 is here to replace Tabernacle in some MUs (it can also be entered in addition to Tabernacle). BEBs are supposed to do the same as BFT except Ichorid with the possibility to coutnerspell Burning Wish (aggro loam and combo), Devastating Dreams and Seismic Assault. It's also better against Dragon Stompy to deal with Moon effects and better against CA gobs (but it's worse against pilly). The rest is quite classic.
Extensive matchup analysis
MUs
At work
Last edited by Maveric78f; 01-14-2010 at 05:12 AM.
What's the reasoning behind Knight of the Reliquary over Terravore?
Originally Posted by wastedlife
I really don't see what blue is giving this deck.
You're not running enough counters for it to matter. Stifle is nice with a land destruction theme but you can get something similar on-color with Ghost Quarter and Exploration to play it multiple times per turn.
Spell Pierce is pretty bad as your only counter.
You're not running RMW, which gives the deck an edge against aggro in the early game and can help stabilize you until the slower Loam engine kicks in.
Intuition is not particularly compelling given its speed in the absence of the ability to have tons of mana on turns two and three.
You're not running Academy Ruins and Engineered Explosives, which is just GG against a lot of decks in the format.
So...why not black? You'll get Maelstrom Pulse, Vindicate, Pernicious Deed, a reliable way to cast Worm Harvest, Doran, and any number of other good things. On the other hand, red gives you Gamble, Seismic Assault, Burning Wish for Loam, Barbarian Ring, Countryside Crusher...
Tutoring utility lands : mana denial, maze, tabernacle, academy ruins and gaea's cradle in some builds.
Does not die against Relic, Planar Void, Leyline.
Even if it's not a strong beater against mana denial, it's still a control creature that requires to be handled quite fast.
Evasion is the single argument in favor of Terravore.
Knight is definitely stronger.
Intuition for long game, meddling mage for the combo MU which not bad if you except Tendrils-decks, and tempo against cards that are a strong annoyment (deed, perish, humility).
Ok. You definitely don't get what the deck is supposed to do. It's not a creature-based Eternal Garden. It's an aggro deck first of all. It has a strong long-game plan, but it's still an aggro/tempo deck in the first place. Stifle and Spell Pierce are strong tempo cards.You're not running enough counters for it to matter. Stifle is nice with a land destruction theme but you can get something similar on-color with Ghost Quarter and Exploration to play it multiple times per turn.
Arguments? Spell pierce is here to gain 2 turns against most of the field. Either to survive against Burn, Zoo, ANT or to kill against control decks such as Landstill or The Rock Control. It's also a great answer to Vial.Spell Pierce is pretty bad as your only counter.
We don't care about the loam engine. It's a long game plan. No need to use it against Zoo. RWM requires 3 coloured man. you can't and don't want to rely on it.You're not running RMW, which gives the deck an edge against aggro in the early game and can help stabilize you until the slower Loam engine kicks in.
??? 6/7 cards enabling you to have 3 manas on turn 2. It's a lot. But, anyway on turn 2, you don't want to play Intuition, but you want tp play threats. You play intuition when the deck starts lacking gas. Usually you play Elspeth before Intuition.Intuition is not particularly compelling given its speed in the absence of the ability to have tons of mana on turns two and three.
Which is so long to put into place that it improves only 1 MU: Merfolks. But against Merfolk, you don't even need ruins, EE is just enough.You're not running Academy Ruins and Engineered Explosives, which is just GG against a lot of decks in the format.
You're really on the control edge. Try to read better the primer and understand how this deck is aggroish and gets controlish only in some MUs, usually not the MUs where you need to be more controlish.So...why not black? You'll get Maelstrom Pulse, Vindicate, Pernicious Deed, a reliable way to cast Worm Harvest, Doran, and any number of other good things. On the other hand, red gives you Gamble, Seismic Assault, Burning Wish for Loam, Barbarian Ring, Countryside Crusher...
To make it simple. The deck plans to win aggro/tempo against heavy control decks and to win thanks to its long-game plan against aggro. Some MUs like Gob are tricky because the decks' roles (aggro or control) depend on the starting hands.
4 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
1 Savannah (or 2)
2 Tundra (or 1)
1 Plains
1 Forest
4 Wasteland
1 Mishra's Factory
3 Tranquil Thicket
1 Secluded Steppe
Is only 23 lands, with 4 Wasteland and 4 Cyclelands. That seems low for a Loam based deck running Mox Diamonds. Have you ever had problems with this? My team has been testing Aggro Loam (which already runs more land) and decided to cut 1 Wasteland; with Loam, you only need 1 anyway, and if needed, Knight can tutor for it. I would guess you need about 2 more colored mana makers in your deck, preferably green based.
Further, this looks like a good and fun deck to play, I'll certainly sleeve it up and test it
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
Finish the list and you'll see 1 Maze and 1 Tabernacle. Plus it plays 3/4 Noble Hierarches.4 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
1 Savannah (or 2)
2 Tundra (or 1)
1 Plains
1 Forest
4 Wasteland
1 Mishra's Factory
3 Tranquil Thicket
1 Secluded Steppe
Is only 23 lands, with 4 Wasteland and 4 Cyclelands. That seems low for a Loam based deck running Mox Diamonds. Have you ever had problems with this? My team has been testing Aggro Loam (which already runs more land) and decided to cut 1 Wasteland; with Loam, you only need 1 anyway, and if needed, Knight can tutor for it. I would guess you need about 2 more colored mana makers in your deck, preferably green based.
Further, this looks like a good and fun deck to play, I'll certainly sleeve it up and test it
My list plays only 24 lands with 1 less cycling but 1 more Noble. I think that with 25 lands you can reliably count on your Mox Diamonds.
The deck looks really interesting, and the primer is very detailed. Have you tested an Ajani Goldmane maybe in place of one Elspeth? His second ability looks pretty good, since it will allow you break stalemates with zoo or goblin where they have many small creatures while you have few very big ones, to both attack with knight and use its fetching ability, to attack with hierarch and tap it for mana (pumping it also a bit), and it will turn few small worms into an impressive army. It is also a good control card.
Sorry if it's a stupid suggestion, of course I've never seen the deck in action before.
Ajani is utterly crap. Elspeth gains +1 to break stalemate. And in general anyway, exalted prevents stalemate. I tried a bit Garruk, but finally it was more overkill than useful. Elspeth serves a lot as control and as a solution to opposing Elspeths, smokestacks and humilities.
I'm glad to see there is a Bant Loam thread up. I have been playing the deck for about a month and a half now with great success.
I've been useing Nantuko Monestary in place of the Mishra's factory. I've had very little trouble getting threshhold to activate him and the first strike has been amazing. Has anybody else tested him?
The version with Gaea's Cradle looks interesting, I'm going to give it a try tonight.
Nantuko has been discarded for 3 main reasons:
- we wanted to make the deck the less graveyard dependant possible. When the deck was unknown a lot of people SBed strong graveyard hate such as tormod's crypt, leyline or Ravenous Trap. But it's clearly counterproductive. The deck does not need it's graveyard to win. So having a land that produce 1 and does nothing else was really a hinder
- the main justification for mishra's factory was to have an early blocker (somehow the possibility to have a 3/3 turn 2). Nantuko Monastery fails at this. The same remark can be made about removing bridges by wasting it. It's too slow to work with Nantuko Monastery.
- the mana requirement of GW is also a burden. We rarely want to spend W in animating a land.
About manlands, we also considered Gargoyle Castle but we thought that the land drop requirement was also too demanding. And we finally did not see the advantage of playing this over Spitting Image.
But actually, in my list, I removed all manlands because I think they do not fit well the aggro spirit of the deck. And generally, you want to devote your land drops either to mana production or to mana disruption.
I like the idea behind the deck, as knight of the reliquary is so much better than terravore. I would get rid of the tempo spells though. Heirarch and stifle don't really seem to fit in he plan of the deck. I might try to fit natural order into the deck in place of those cards as an "oh shit" button or just an "I win'' card.
Team Unicorn: We're horny...get it?
If you want to go this route, you can also remove STP and take some inspiration from this deck and play with Trinket Mage and Chalice of the Void. It seems really interesting to me.
I just started to play this Deck (with the Harvest/Cradle-package), and it's soooo much fun. Great work, now it's time to get a cradle and a few more Elspeths. Are you gonna do the MU analysis soon or rather later?
Or rather never?
Definitely not soon. The metagame has changed a lot since the first builds (unbans + ZEN/WWK). So it would require quite a lot of work for me.
I'll remain on this for the moment:
I would add that the deck is easy to adapt to a given metagame, because it can include very strong tools such as Engineered Explosives recursion, Bojuka Bog, the best disruptive creatures, even Chalice of the Void.In fast, ANT and TES are really awful. Aggro Loam, Reanimator and Survival/Natural Order are negative too. Humility Landstill is quite balanced, the same about Gobs with Perish. Ugr countertop goyf is balanced too. The rest ranges from slightly positive to very positive (the best one is Tempo Thresh).
This list piloted by Mathieu Deloly did pretty well at GP Madrid:
I won't translate his report but you can read it in french here:Code:Creatures 4 Tarmogoyf 4 Knight of the Reliquary 4 Noble Hierarch 4 Qasali Pridemage 2 Rhox War Monk Spells 2 Intuition 3 Spell Pierce 4 Swords to Plowshares 1 Worms harvest 2 Life from the Loam 3 Mox Diamond 3 2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant 1 Crop Rotation Lands 1 Forest 1 Maze of Ith 1 Treetop Village 3 Misty Rainforest 1 Plains 1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale 2 Tranquil Thicket 2 Tropical Island 2 Savannah 1 Tundra 4 Wasteland 4 Windswept Heat 1 Bokuja bog 1 Gaea's Craddle Side: 2 Burrenton Forge-Tender 2 Jotun Grunt 2 Gaddock Tegg 2 Ethersworn Canonist 1 Propaganda 1 Ghostly Prison 2 Engineered Explosives 2 Hydroblast 1 Meddling Mage
http://www.legacy-france.com/index.p...ndpost&p=62698
Round1 : Bye
Round2 : Bye
Round3 : Bye
Round4 : Bant Progenitus
2-0
4-0-0
Round5 : Bant Countertop
2-0
5-0-0
Round6 : Bant Progenitus
2-1
6-0-0
Round7 : ANT
1-2
6-0-1
Round8 : ANT
2-1
7-0-1
Round9 : ANT
2-1
8-0-1
DAY2
Round10 : GWBR control (reading his report, it looks quite like my list but not exactly)
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...258#post433258
I was played by Kres, Mattias. He's Dutch, if one of you can bring me his list, I'd be very happy to have a look at it.
1-1
8-1-1
Round11 : Naya
2-0
9-1-1
Round12 : Belcher
1-2
9-1-2
Ronde13 : Standstill
1-1
9-2-2
Ronde14 : Naya
0-2
9-2-3
Drop.
He finished 156. I can't understand why he dropped, he was totally able to bring back 200$ being in top64. I think he was pissed off by his bad luck against Standstill, Belcher and Naya. Belcher is a coin Toss and the 2 others are supposed to be positive MUs.
Well, he beat combo twice, so he was kinda lucky =)
I just tried the deck a little (but changed it, due to budget) and it is really fun to play. Depending on how much combo I expect I might sleeve it up next Iserlohn.
In general:
How do the Suicide MUs (mostly black, Hymn etc....) play out? I feel like they are the hardest to play against, I'm still inexperienced with this deck so its hard to figure out the exact plays and SB plans.
For the list of mattias you should check Red Rock in established posted by skeggi, Mattias is our teammate.
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