For all intents and purposes we are already there.Originally Posted by jattra
This is a god damn best idea I have read from this topic. Hats off, Sir!
Impressive that this topic is still going strong.
A few quick points:
- It's at the point where it's now potentially profitable to invest in printing equipment to reverse-engineer the printing process of old cards, down to similar paper and varnish. Doesn't need to be the exact thing they used; needs to be just close enough to feel similar and pass the basic tests. I've already heard some rumblings of people putting actual time and effort into this, and not some Chinese guy using excess printing capacity in their playing card factory.
- The RL's existence means precisely nothing for the value and collectability; I'm finishing a 7th edition foil set, and BoP is pushing $1000; Ensnaring Bridge was something like $250, hell Llanowar Elves are now $75. None of those cards are reserved, and are widely available. As a collector, I like to collect rare stuff. Foil 7th is rare, ugly-ass WB Revised duals are not.
- I want to *play* Legacy. If I want to be part of a bullshit elitist club that jerks each other off while laughing at the peasants, I'll just buy an old Ferrari. These are cardboard game pieces, ffs.
If 8 years had gone by with no loss in pouplarity for Legacy, I would agree. But we've definitely seen a decrease of popularity for Legacy over those 8 years, or at least the last 4. On a local level I can only speak for myself, but one store that used to do Legacy events doesn't do them anymore at all, and one that used to have two Legacy events a week has dropped down to one (interestingly, Modern has gone from a once-a-week tournament to having three tournaments per week, counting FNM). And on a larger level SCG has noticeably cut back on their Legacy events. From everything I can see, Legacy was, is, and remains on a downward popularity trend with no sign of reversing course.
Many Legacy players I know have sold out all reprintable stuff and bought Old School instead. This is quite understandable for money point of view.
Okay, here is my opinion.
There is a big difference between a slow decrease in popularity and the format dying. The format can be perpetually reducing in popularity, and still have a baseline popularity level that is quite high forever. It all comes down to the behavior over time of the rate of decline. A quick glance at the attendance levels of Legacy GP events does not indicate a format that is near death, at least to me.
I wouldn't draw the conclusion that the level of tournament support at StarCityGames is an indication of the popularity of the format as a whole. They make decisions for business reasons, a major factor that determines their level of support is their level of inventory and expected sales. The entry fees play a role as well, but are a secondary concern compared to their singles churning efforts. StarCityGames is a store first, and everything else second.
10 years ago, I expect they were very flush with Legacy stock as a result of years of acquisitions. Legacy was the cheap format during those days; duals were 13 to 20 dollars and stores couldn't sell them. They chose to promote the format to sell and increase the price of that stock, while also promoting the format in a more general way with Articles and streaming. Yes, things have changed immensely since that time, and I would argue for the better.
The next few years will be interesting. I simply don't buy the argument that Legacy is dying. In the end, we each have an opinion and we will just have to see where things go.
I just picked out these two paragraphs, to talk about perception of the formats health. I don't think that attendance at the biggest tournament of the year on certain continents fit to gauge the average health of the format. For me it's the local scene which is. The one maintaining the format even without the big spotlights of a GP. Just look at Vintage, which still draws in players at GP sideevents, yet no one is concluding the format is fine, healthy and affordable or god forbid even played in paper aside such rare events. Second, the term "dying" is open for debate. If you refer to GPs, PTQs, MCM Open, SCG Open, BoM, Ovinogeddon, etc hosting such (side) events as a sign of the formats being fine, your standards are too low in my opinion. If you have to travel a few hours to events, which are held only a few times a year, just to play a particular format in a decent tournament size, I don't think that counts as vital signs. In some areas it seems to be already the case and the years will show how (not "if") it gets worse
www.theepicstorm.com - Your Source for The Epic Storm - Articles, Reports, Decktech and more!
Join us at Facebook!
Game play and community-wise as well. Less whine than beer ^_^.
For those interested in the latest Ancient decks (and the format in general) visit: http://ancientmtgdecks.blogspot.ca/
Firestorm just jumped to almost $100.
I didn't realize this was on the RL and it is kind of surprising it wasn't targeted earlier as it is common in Dredge sideboards (so it would come up as a 'playable' RL card in whatever algorithms people use).
Edit: "almost $100" was per MTGGoldfish. Their prices are inflated and it seems you can still get copies for about $50. But this is still a sizable jump.
All these price bubbles are very scary... At what point do all the reserve list cards drop because it is unsustainable? Will they hold value forever? Maybe legacy dies because ppl buyout and hoard all the expensive cards?
Wizards cannot make money off of legacy because they cannot reprint cards... HOWEVER, they can make them digital. If there ever was a time to redo their interface now would be the time to revive the legacy / vintage formats. People willing to pay $800 for real duals would likely sink considerable money into online cards if the interface wasn't complete garbage. They clearly are redoing the engine for their new MTG Arena game. Maybe this is the beginning of the end of paper magic for older formats?
Play 4 Card Blind!
Currently Playing
Legacy: Dark Depths
EDH: 5-Color Hermit Druid
Currently Brewing: [Deck] Sadistic Sacrament / Chalice NO Eldrazi
why cards are so expensive...hoarders
1.5 years at most before the recession blows a lot of players out of the water. Hopefully we can pick up some cards again by then.
We already have a thread re: counterfeits.
Still, I recently felt fakes of LED and Italian white bordered Volcanic Island (you read that right). Let me say that I can’t even recall the last time I felt an opponent’s unsleeved card (maybe I poked someone’s flipped delver?).
These were indiatinguishable in a sleeve. The LED’s instricate mosaic pattern was spot on and the volc had believable saturation and 4th ed tap symbol. The backs weren’t perfect but when do you see the backs of your opponents’ cards?
I don’t think that people want to play with fakes, know where to get good ones, or want to jeopardize their future in sanctioned events for being busted using said fakes. These are a few reasons why people are now paying $500+ for Underground Sea aside from panic buying and investing.
I think Legacy player base will shrink as players leave the game and their cards get into the hands of collectors and dealers who will be less able to move their inventory at the higher price point as time goes on while also being unwilling to take the loss and sell for less than they acquired the cards for.
However, there are so many people who have invested into Legacy to play that I don’t see the format being mortally wounded. It may take a few years but I imagine we’ll have a comparable, fetchable, dual printed sooner than later to prolong the lifespan of the format and so players can continue to enjoy that sweet sweet Legacy.
"I made a Redguard that looks like Kimbo Slice. He wrecks peoples' shit. And dragons." - Bignasty197
I LOL'd
Another question: does anyone know why foil Arenas spiked at the time of the Dominiaria release? see https://www.mtggoldfish.com/price/Ti...il/Arena#paper
First of all, excuse my english. I usually play legacy tournaments in my city, I live in a cosmopolitan city and normally i had no problem to play a legacy tournament with 10 players. Last month, this number have decresed, till last wednesday, when we were just three persons and we werent able to play the tournament. I am a little sad, i have a big legacy pool and i can play almost each legacy deck, but this fact make me think about my cards... I am wondering if it could be acceptable to sell a part of my pool, i dont really need money right now but also i dont wanna have a cards in a box cause i have nobody to play... What do u guys think? Any suggestion would be great for me.
Thank you!
The foil Arena makes me a bit sad. I went and picked up an Arena years ago for Modern and chose to get the book printing instead of the foil Timespiral card. I wonder if the foil is selling though.
What's the best way to sell these days anyway? I'm too wary of eBay or even TCG because of the threat of having my cards called Fake and being scammed out. High End group on Facebook?
The collapse of RL cards will be interesting. I think what will have to happen for prices to ever decrease is the game/format will have to have been dead for years. I think there was a comparison to other collectibles that used to be worth a ton of money, but the market collapsed as people aged out of wanting them.
The price of RL cards will need to be elevated enough that people can't even consider getting into the format (check), and rise to the point where players weigh the pros/cons and decide to sell out to make bank (in progress with pieces of cardboard being worth literally thousands) - drying up the player pool. Then the local tournaments need to dry up (check), but since there are still collectors or speculators the price would remain high (check). The large tournaments will have to dry up as the player base ages out of wanting to play (pending), or until the format goes to shit/stagnates and people don't feel a drive to play anymore (Grixis Delver). Those former players move onto either other formats (Modern) or other hobbies/family.
As your player base dries up and the prices continue to sky rocket - capitalizing on the remaining speculators or die hards (93/94) - the tournament support dies out and there's no more way to use your cards, or for them to get coverage to advertise to new players. No new players, competitive hobbies, there's no one who even wants to buy a $2000 Underground Sea anymore. Years pass, prices drop, but Legacy is a dead has-been format so no one cares. A few cards might hold value out of sentimental reasons.
It'll take a long time - considering people have been talking about the demise of Legacy since this thread started - but we're starting to get there. Unless, that is, people turn a blind eye to Chinese fakes.
This is the interesting one. Will the community ever turn a blind eye to it to the point where there is a tacit admission that some cards are fake "sure, *this* tropical island is worth $5, and this one is worth $1000 because arbitrary reasons, just trade for the one you want"? It's possible, but not likely.
WotC or course will not, nor will collectors. But it sure would be amusing to see all the real ones shift int o the hands of collectors/investors and fakes become the predominant played cards.
Well, does it matter if you get beaten by someone with a 900$ Revised Underground Sea (Jesus Christ) or a Alpha 8000$ Underground Sea? Same thing. Not to mention most people got their cards for way cheaper than for the artificial price rises right now.
I could see future non-sanctioned tournaments allowing proxies for RL cards. WotC goes out of their way to fuck Legacy events over anyway (see: MKM series).
After reading your post, I'm curious: How well do you know the other Legacy players? Is this a temporary absence for them? Do you know why they aren't showing up? Does anyone in your area promote the Legacy scene? You say you own most of the format. Do you ever lend out decks or individual cards?
My personal opinion is that cards have value to different people for different reasons. If your cards don't have sentimental value to you, then you have to look at what else they could become. Would you value that more? But it also doesn't make sense to part with your Legacy stuff unless you're leaving the format. What if you move? Would you buy back what you sold if there was a stronger Legacy scene there?
If you sell, I think the best thing to do is to find a local player who wants to buy into Legacy and sell them to him or her. There's also nothing wrong with trimming down a big collection. People do it for all sorts of reasons.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote