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Thread: [Official] Bitching About Prices, Buyouts and Reprints Thread

  1. #6741
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    Re: [Official] Bitching About Prices, Buyouts and Reprints Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Cartesian View Post
    I usually enjoy Patricks rants, but what a load of baloney that was. His main arguments are 1) that it is OK that people can't play Legacy because they can still play "Magic" so there is really no problem, and 2) people who complain about the RL are mostly people who can't afford the cards are their current price. Both are completely wrong, and he just repeats them over and over. Much respect lost.
    1)

    He said people can't play sanctioned tournament Legacy. I play in a weekly legacy tournament that allows all proxies. We have the same fun as people playing in sanctioned events. I bring a real deck, some others do as well, and a few go the proxy route. There are many ways to enjoy Magic, from Pro Tours to kitchen tables. The formats are varied and interesting, supported and unsupported (Old School). I actually created a format, designed to eliminate all luck other than 1 coin flip. It was fun. Is it that egregious that there are a handful of useful cards in an ancient format that won't ever be printed again? I don't think so.

    2)

    Patrick almost certainly has more exposure to peoples opinions about the reserved list than you do. Given his high profile in the community, I'm willing to believe that he is being candid. There is no reasonable way of doing a fact finding mission, admitting that your opinion on the reserved list is highly related to your personal financial situation isn't palatable. If Wizards lifted the restricted list and said each card can be purchased directly from them for 500 dollars per card, would that appease the masses? Suppose Wizards offers to take 450 of the dollars and donate them, in Wizards name, to a charity of your choosing. When I assert this proposed solution of 500 dollar cards available on demand, people gloss over it. Occasionally, people make a few snide remarks regarding the specific cards that have a current price above my made up mark of 500, which is not a clever response.

    In my opinion, the primary issue is the cost of dual lands and Power. People don't want to pay the cost for those things, but they want to play Legacy/Vintage. I haven't found an example of someone who dislikes the reserved list and likes the 500 dollar cards on demand solution, which I feel is a good litmus test. From what I have seen, people want inexpensive duals. Inexpensive is usually some cost they personally can afford, but it varies quite a bit based on their situation.

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    Re: [Official] Bitching About Prices, Buyouts and Reprints Thread

    I just wonder, can RL still preserve the value of duals? Really, at the current crazy cost?
    Or is it just going to make sanctioned legacy die?
    Or is it just going to bring a new generation of counterfeits, close to the original, almost unrecognisable?

    Even though I am able to eventually pay $500 for an USee, I am loosing faith that it will keep its value.

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    Re: [Official] Bitching About Prices, Buyouts and Reprints Thread

    Oh the issue for me isn't being able to afford Legacy but definitely not finding it worth the price it is now.

    I'd rather see cardprices drop to near 0 and have my collection be worthless than see prices keep rising. I like to play with my cards and as such have no desire to convert them to money, so why should I care that my cards are worth a nice lump of money (or not). Same goes for not getting a return on the money I "invested" in it - I didn't need it and as such did with it as I saw fit, so why should I care about a potential return..? I honestly really don't. I'd be perfectly happy taking the "loss".

    Heck, an enormous pricedrop would probably result in me spending more money on MtG than I do currently b/c then I would find it worth it.
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    Re: [Official] Bitching About Prices, Buyouts and Reprints Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Matsu View Post
    If I will run a shop or be part of a mass shop like he is. I would like the RL to stay -> just raise the price every week on your U-Sea by 10$ and count your profits.
    But as a player with a family and a proper job. It is sad to only play every week with one guy and every 2 months with 15 people. I would like to see some fresh meat, new brews, stupid decks, etc...

    The RL has to go to keep the format alive or it will become a relic of the past like vintage.

    Two maybe three years and the next step will be a a new team trio Modern/Standard/ Pauper or New format.
    Probably new format to sell more booster boxes.

    Patrick is just protecting his own business.

    This is straight up WRONG. Patrick's opinions are his own and have nothing to do with SCG's management.

    SCG management has stated publicly MULTIPLE TIMES that they are NOT in favour of the RL and would like to see it abolished.

  5. #6745

    Re: [Official] Bitching About Prices, Buyouts and Reprints Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by raudo View Post
    I like the reserve list, it brings some mysterious and hard to get element for this game. If you want be compatible and want all your stuff reprintable just play modern.
    500, even 2000$ card isn't a price tag that make a card "mysterious and hard to get", such price tag aren't high enough for this statement to be true...
    Still WAY too many people can afford it if they want. The same as if I want a car I get out, and buy it. Many people can do that, even every month for some of them.
    It's just, plainly, expensive. But in no way hard or mysterious.

    To be honest I don't care a second if a card is on the reserved list or not, especially when you see all the crap on this list by nowadays standard...
    But the thing is, if legacy hit a too expensive price tag (and we are already in the red zone), then the format will die, because only people who already have the card, will play it, like Vintage right now.
    No way it can survive when a 75 cards worth as much as a second hand car...

    Quote Originally Posted by jattra View Post
    I just wonder, can RL still preserve the value of duals? Really, at the current crazy cost?
    Or is it just going to make sanctioned legacy die?
    Or is it just going to bring a new generation of counterfeits, close to the original, almost unrecognisable?

    Even though I am able to eventually pay $500 for an USee, I am loosing faith that it will keep its value.
    Likely to die if nothing is done. Will survive online and that's about it...

    And yeah, at 500 a USee, likely to see better and better counterfeit arriving on the mass market...
    The price is getting very high, the supply is low, and the risk is so low compare to real money counterfeit... It's almost too easy/tempting...

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    Re: [Official] Bitching About Prices, Buyouts and Reprints Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Deisss View Post
    Likely to die if nothing is done.
    People have been saying this since the beginning of this thread, back in 2010. At what point is this prediction considered wrong, apparently 8 years aren't enough? Cards don't expire like bread. If you want in, buy in.

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    Re: [Official] Bitching About Prices, Buyouts and Reprints Thread

    Let's think about this point and come up with constructive solutions to the real reason nothing is reprinted: DISTRIBUTION.
    Even if Wizards wanted to reprint everything, how would they get the cards to players? Think about a new Masters set and packs that have a $10 MSRP. How much do those really sell for?
    Now imagine a set with reprints of Power. That shit would never leave the stores because owners would act like the diamond cartel and hoard the supply and release stock to keep prices fixed (i.e. artificially high).
    I don't think Wizards truly cares about legal ramifications of abolishing the RL. It's been demonstrated that original card prices aren't destroyed because of reprints. However, after years of this "debate" they've painted themselves into a corner since prices have ballooned.
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    Re: [Official] Bitching About Prices, Buyouts and Reprints Thread

    Isn't the whole "500$ per card" somewhat of strawman in regards to stuff like Power or Tabernacle, if the core question actually is, how the fuck some 2k$ Decks should actually be able to compete against Hearthstone, a gaming PC, a gaming console, etc., when it comes to the question, where some 10-16yo nerds spend their limited money? That's the audience and new players the format needs to aquire at some point in order to stay healthy, but unfortunately they are priced out while the formats players get older and less.
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    Re: [Official] Bitching About Prices, Buyouts and Reprints Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ramanujan View Post
    1)

    He said people can't play sanctioned tournament Legacy. I play in a weekly legacy tournament that allows all proxies. We have the same fun as people playing in sanctioned events. I bring a real deck, some others do as well, and a few go the proxy route.
    What shop has weekly tournaments in Des Moines? Or have you moved away?


    This may sound a little elitist but frankly, I like that not everyone can easily afford Legacy/Vintage. Obviously the RL has a lot to do with it. I enjoy playing this game with adults. I’ve noticed the people who play eternal formats are for the most part more gracious, happy to just be playing the game and aren’t such sore losers. Games are far more enjoyable than playing against some try hard trying to q for a pt or whatever. Eternal players don’t seem to take it for granted. I see some of the people that play Standard and Modern and I would hate to deal with some of that behavior.

    Legacy isn’t going to die, as a matter of fact, this year has been insane in terms of support from WotC. We have two GP in the US, one in Europe, one in Asia, three Eternal Weekends and countless team events from SCG. Hell, it’s even going to be played in a Pro Tour. If you’d have told me that two or three years ago I wouldn’t have believed it.

    Would I like 50 man weeklies, sure maybe, but 16-20 (what we get) isn’t bad.

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    Re: [Official] Bitching About Prices, Buyouts and Reprints Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier of Fortune View Post
    What shop has weekly tournaments in Des Moines? Or have you moved away?


    This may sound a little elitist but frankly, I like that not everyone can easily afford Legacy/Vintage. Obviously the RL has a lot to do with it. I enjoy playing this game with adults. I’ve noticed the people who play eternal formats are for the most part more gracious, happy to just be playing the game and aren’t such sore losers. Games are far more enjoyable than playing against some try hard trying to q for a pt or whatever. Eternal players don’t seem to take it for granted. I see some of the people that play Standard and Modern and I would hate to deal with some of that behavior.

    Legacy isn’t going to die, as a matter of fact, this year has been insane in terms of support from WotC. We have two GP in the US, one in Europe, one in Asia, three Eternal Weekends and countless team events from SCG. Hell, it’s even going to be played in a Pro Tour. If you’d have told me that two or three years ago I wouldn’t have believed it.

    Would I like 50 man weeklies, sure maybe, but 16-20 (what we get) isn’t bad.
    I live in Indiana now, I should change my profile. There is a good store in Des Moines, Mayhem. I would check with them, as I haven't been to the store in a while. When you get there, feel free to mention that they owe me sealed pack of Saga. One of their employees (probably former at this point) bet me that Gaea's Cradle was going to get banned in Legacy 4 years ago, which it didn't. It is a funny story, I don't actually expect to get anything.

    You are right about the community, and the increased support. I really enjoy the Legacy community. I don't want to stereotype, but there is a difference I have experienced between the Standard community and the Legacy community. I prefer the Legacy crowd, for what it is worth.

  11. #6751

    Re: [Official] Bitching About Prices, Buyouts and Reprints Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Deisss View Post
    500, even 2000$ card isn't a price tag that make a card "mysterious and hard to get", such price tag aren't high enough for this statement to be true...
    Still WAY too many people can afford it if they want. The same as if I want a car I get out, and buy it. Many people can do that, even every month for some of them.
    It's just, plainly, expensive. But in no way hard or mysterious.
    Well that is your personal opinion. In my playgroup, still, when we look at Black Lotus, Time Walk, The Abyss etc.. There are still the wow-feeling. That feeling will not come from any reprintable foiled invention Black Lotus or from mass printed five dollar Lotus.

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    Re: [Official] Bitching About Prices, Buyouts and Reprints Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by raudo View Post
    Well that is your personal opinion. In my playgroup, still, when we look at Black Lotus, Time Walk, The Abyss etc.. There are still the wow-feeling. That feeling will not come from any reprintable foiled invention Black Lotus or from mass printed five dollar Lotus.
    That's the difference between people who look at Lotus & Co as a collectible and the players who just want a tournament legal card no matter how it looks.

    I don't think that reprinting shitty ass looking, but tournament legal cards for the actual players would affect the feeling you get from looking at a beta copy or it's price.
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    Re: [Official] Bitching About Prices, Buyouts and Reprints Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    That's the difference between people who look at Lotus & Co as a collectible and the players who just want a tournament legal card no matter how it looks.

    I don't think that reprinting shitty ass looking, but tournament legal cards for the actual players would affect the feeling you get from looking at a beta copy or it's price.
    Case and point, Birds of Paradise.

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    Re: [Official] Bitching About Prices, Buyouts and Reprints Thread

    If this is really all about playing in a sanctioned, non-proxy tournament, then why can't you "rent" a card for a single event?
    This would still "move" cards in a $ positive direction for sellers and players can still attend that big event.

    In MTGO, you don't own the cards but you own a digital license to the image or some such nonsense.
    If it works for MTGO, then WOTC can "lease" me the physical card, too.

    WOTC can monetize this now by doing something similar with any licensed card that is ONLY useable for one event.
    It CAN even just be a blank card that says "UNDERGROUND SEA" in block letters.
    It doesn't violate the RL but still allows players to play in a sanctioned, non-proxy tournament.
    Last edited by non-inflammable; 05-30-2018 at 11:33 PM.

  15. #6755

    Re: [Official] Bitching About Prices, Buyouts and Reprints Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ramanujan View Post
    1)

    He said people can't play sanctioned tournament Legacy. I play in a weekly legacy tournament that allows all proxies. We have the same fun as people playing in sanctioned events. I bring a real deck, some others do as well, and a few go the proxy route. There are many ways to enjoy Magic, from Pro Tours to kitchen tables. The formats are varied and interesting, supported and unsupported (Old School). I actually created a format, designed to eliminate all luck other than 1 coin flip. It was fun. Is it that egregious that there are a handful of useful cards in an ancient format that won't ever be printed again? I don't think so.

    2)

    Patrick almost certainly has more exposure to peoples opinions about the reserved list than you do. Given his high profile in the community, I'm willing to believe that he is being candid. There is no reasonable way of doing a fact finding mission, admitting that your opinion on the reserved list is highly related to your personal financial situation isn't palatable. If Wizards lifted the restricted list and said each card can be purchased directly from them for 500 dollars per card, would that appease the masses? Suppose Wizards offers to take 450 of the dollars and donate them, in Wizards name, to a charity of your choosing. When I assert this proposed solution of 500 dollar cards available on demand, people gloss over it. Occasionally, people make a few snide remarks regarding the specific cards that have a current price above my made up mark of 500, which is not a clever response.

    In my opinion, the primary issue is the cost of dual lands and Power. People don't want to pay the cost for those things, but they want to play Legacy/Vintage. I haven't found an example of someone who dislikes the reserved list and likes the 500 dollar cards on demand solution, which I feel is a good litmus test. From what I have seen, people want inexpensive duals. Inexpensive is usually some cost they personally can afford, but it varies quite a bit based on their situation.
    "Is it that egregious that there are a handful of useful cards in an ancient format that won't ever be printed again? I don't think so."
    Good for you?

    The "Any card for $500" idea isn't ideal but I grant you that it would be an infinitely better place to be than what we have at the moment

    This may sound a little elitist but frankly, I like that not everyone can easily afford Legacy/Vintage. Obviously the RL has a lot to do with it. I enjoy playing this game with adults. I’ve noticed the people who play eternal formats are for the most part more gracious, happy to just be playing the game and aren’t such sore losers. Games are far more enjoyable than playing against some try hard trying to q for a pt or whatever. Eternal players don’t seem to take it for granted. I see some of the people that play Standard and Modern and I would hate to deal with some of that behavior.
    Hot take: the Legacy / Vintage community is actually worse, because the average mtg player is an immature mega-dork and this doesn't vary with age. A child with stunted social skills is way more excusable than some 40yo with the same behaviours. Anecdotally, the reason why the local YGO/Pokemon players aren't interested in MTG is because it's perceived as a game for awkward neckbeards and it's not hard to see why.

    If you're this insecure about playing a game that says "13 years and up" on the packaging or you're so afraid of interacting with people that you won't play tournaments then stay home with your friends and play with proxy cards
    Last edited by kombatkiwi; 05-31-2018 at 01:56 AM.

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    Re: [Official] Bitching About Prices, Buyouts and Reprints Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Case and point, Birds of Paradise.
    Point gets really driven home when you use basic lands.

    Arabian Nights Mountain
    Guru Island

    No card had been reprinted as often, but yet these printings get triple digit dollar value.
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    Re: [Official] Bitching About Prices, Buyouts and Reprints Thread

    Its nice to see some ideas instead of people praying they abolish the reserve list. This isn't much of a stretch. Vendors already loan out cards and decks, the difference is they have to know the person. They could set it up like any other rental transaction holding a deposit etc. The vendors list the exact decklist on website prior to event, and people would use proxies leading up to the event for deck familiarity.


    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    If this is really all about playing in a sanctioned, non-proxy tournament, then why can't you "rent" a card for a single event?
    This would still "move" cards in a $ positive direction for sellers and players can still attend that big event.

    In MTGO, you don't own the cards but you own a digital license to the image or some such nonsense.
    If it works for MTGO, then WOTC can "lease" me the physical card, too.

    WOTC can monetize this now by doing something similar with any licensed card that is ONLY useable for one event.
    It CAN even just be a blank card that says "UNDERGROUND SEA" in block letters.
    It doesn't violate the RL but still allows players to play in a sanctioned, non-proxy tournament.

  18. #6758
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    Re: [Official] Bitching About Prices, Buyouts and Reprints Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateKing View Post
    Point gets really driven home when you use basic lands.

    Arabian Nights Mountain
    Guru Island

    No card had been reprinted as often, but yet these printings get triple digit dollar value.
    Maybe I go too far, but one could also make a point about Juzaam and the pseudo reprint which the 2BB 5/5 Sliver was. Regardless, we agree on the base topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    WOTC can monetize this now by doing something similar with any licensed card that is ONLY useable for one event.
    It CAN even just be a blank card that says "UNDERGROUND SEA" in block letters.
    It doesn't violate the RL but still allows players to play in a sanctioned, non-proxy tournament.
    Would you allow me to go one step further? What about if you could 10 bucks extra at registration for a vintage tournament to get handed a sealed pack of such licensed blanks which includes the power 9, 1x Library, 4x Bazaar and 4x workshop?

    P.S.: does this technically even violate the RL list at all?
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    Re: [Official] Bitching About Prices, Buyouts and Reprints Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    Maybe I go too far, but one could also make a point about Juzaam and the pseudo reprint which the 2BB 5/5 Sliver was. Regardless, we agree on the base topic.



    Would you allow me to go one step further? What about if you could 10 bucks extra at registration for a vintage tournament to get handed a sealed pack of such licensed blanks which includes the power 9, 1x Library, 4x Bazaar and 4x workshop?

    P.S.: does this technically even violate the RL list at all?
    If they did this with nice looking card stock it would be an amazing way for people to get proxies for Cube/EDH. Have the card say "Only valid for tournament use on 5/31/2018" and then after that it's just a pretty proxy.

    Then all the snobby dickheads who care about that kind of thing would still know who to look down on when they play and the "poors" could play whichever decks they thought would perform well instead of budget X.

  20. #6760

    Re: [Official] Bitching About Prices, Buyouts and Reprints Thread

    "Spirit of the Reserved List" hand waving would likely stop that regardless. It applies to tournament legal cards as well. Currently, I think Wizards said that they wouldn't produce World Champs decks again of reserved cards.
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