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Thread: [Official] Bitching About Prices, Buyouts and Reprints Thread

  1. #201
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    Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard

    Quote Originally Posted by majikal View Post
    You also have to take into account that the average Standard player has to "buy in" to that format every season, whereas with Legacy you pick up the staples once and then just grab whatever looks interesting from the new sets. This ends up being far, far cheaper in the long run.
    To some degree the "buy in" popular type 2 chase cards are also the "interesting [cards] from the new sets". Read as: Zen Fetches; Planeswalkers; Thoughtseize/Mutavault-esque stuff. Sometimes playing only Legacy allows one to avoid having to shell out for the hype rare, like Baneslayer Angel this season or Bitterblossem from last season, but alot of the time there is substantial overlap.
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    Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard

    Quote Originally Posted by from Cairo View Post
    To some degree the "buy in" popular type 2 chase cards are also the "interesting [cards] from the new sets". Read as: Zen Fetches; Planeswalkers; Thoughtseize/Mutavault-esque stuff. Sometimes playing only Legacy allows one to avoid having to shell out for the hype rare, like Baneslayer Angel this season or Bitterblossem from last season, but alot of the time there is substantial overlap.
    This is only true a small percentage of the time. For every Thoughtseize you get about ten relatively expensive cards that will never be useful outside of Standard or maybe Extended to a degree, but are still needed to play the format. New lands very, very rarely make a splash outside of Extended. Zen Fetches are of course an exception to this rule, but for the most part, unless it's a utility card like Mutavault or a "break-me" card like Dark Depths, it won't see any serious play.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin View Post
    This isn't the game of holding hands and friendship. This is a competitive game, and if we all sit around singing kumbaya and sucking each other's dicks, then a lot of people are going to go to a tournament and lose because their pile of 61 jank isn't the special unique snowflake that everyone on the Source says it was.

  3. #203

    Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard

    I just hope all of you have already bought your Loyal Retainers, so I can get mine for a reasonable price...

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    Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard

    Quote Originally Posted by crow_mw View Post
    I just hope all of you have already bought your Loyal Retainers, so I can get mine for a reasonable price...
    I know right? Everyone's dumping them onto eBay now. At this rate the price will crash right back down to where it started.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin View Post
    This isn't the game of holding hands and friendship. This is a competitive game, and if we all sit around singing kumbaya and sucking each other's dicks, then a lot of people are going to go to a tournament and lose because their pile of 61 jank isn't the special unique snowflake that everyone on the Source says it was.

  5. #205
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    Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard

    Quote Originally Posted by majikal View Post
    I know right? Everyone's dumping them onto eBay now. At this rate the price will crash right back down to where it started.
    Half of them are buy it nows for 140 and no one is going to pay that much.

    If people keep dumping them onto Ebay, I don't think they'll drop down to 40. It was 40 as a somewhat fringe uncommon, and now it's actually proven itself to be a part of a very well functioning 2 card combo. I'd think 80 would be a baseline price after a few months, but until then probably around 95.

  6. #206
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    Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard

    My guess is it will finally settle at $60. Unless this combo starts dominating a lot of big tournaments I don't see people shelling out. I mean if you have a boner to play this deck then great but otherwise you are just going to pick another highly competitive deck to go take down a tournament with.

  7. #207

    Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard

    Quote Originally Posted by HAVE HEART View Post
    That is fucking ridiculous. Those commons and uncommons are usually bought for $.25 and $.50 each (respectively) if one does not have access to those, which does add up quickly.
    You're speaking from a position of ignorance. You don't know which commons I left off, or how many, because I didn't tell you, so don't go flying off the handle like you've uncovered proof that the moon landing was faked.

    Since you asked - oh wait, you didn't, you wanted to grandstand instead of discuss the issue empirically. Well, whatever, I'll provide the list of excluded cards for you anyway:

    Mind Rot
    Disfigure
    Grim Discovery
    Zektar Shrine Expedition
    Rampant Growth
    Expedition Map
    Khalni Heart Expedition
    Naya Panorama
    Bountiful Harvest
    Grazing Gladehart
    Divination
    Spreading Seas
    Courier's Capsule
    Teetering Peaks

    Dragon's Claw
    Rockslide Elemental
    Marsh Casualties
    Unstable Footing
    Mind Sludge

    Flashfreeze ($0.19)
    Swerve ($0.29)
    Essence Scatter ($0.13)
    Harrow ($0.14)

    and basic lands

    I guess I should have included the four cards priced out above, whooo boy add a whole $2.42 to the $1005.61 total, I guess you really caught me there, Encyclopedia Brown!


    With the exceptions of the four cards priced out above, all of these cards are between 3 and 8 cents apiece on the website YOU cited as evidence for the expense of Standard vs. Legacy. Even if you included playsets of all the cards I didn't price out (and they were not all used as playsets), it adds less than $5 to the total. There's a reason I said these cards were not worth looking up.


    Furthermore, I suppose if you are the little Dutch boy holding back the sea with his finger in the dike, you might not have ever made it to a Magic booster draft, but I have done so many times, and I can assure you that all of these cards (with the possible exception of Flashfreeze and Swerve) are routinely left behind or thrown in the garbage as worthless.


    Your data are just wrong. I suspect this is because you felt you had a point to make ("Look, this cherry-picked Standard decklist is in the ballpark of the cost of Legacy decks! Therefore no one should complain about Legacy singles prices!") and decided that righteous indignation and demagoguing was a better use of your time than fact-checking.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bardo View Post
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  8. #208

    Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard

    Quote Originally Posted by MattH View Post
    So yeah. Besides Fish, a single legacy deck costs only a little less than Standard: The Format.
    But in one year, Standard: The Format will be 0% format-legal and almost entirely useless, with some exceptions for decks that can be ported into Extended like Affinity. Your Legacy deck will be largely equally as competitive, still 100% format-legal and probably only need a handful of replacements for new cards printed. If the deck is blown out by a rules change or format shift like Solidarity was, all of the most valuable cards in the deck, with very precious few exceptions (Tabernacle, Reset and some of the expensive goblins are the only one I can think of?), will be fully useable for a different tier 2 or higher deck that runs them.

    In short, I don't think that's a fair argument to be made. Despite all the doom and gloom surrounding infinitesimally small price hikes across the board and the occasional big jumper, Legacy is still less expensive than Standard over a realistic period of time and M:tG is still an insanely cheap hobby for adults with incomes above the poverty line.
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    Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard

    Quote Originally Posted by IsThisACatInAHat? View Post
    M:tG is still an insanely cheap hobby for adults with incomes above the poverty line.
    Insanely cheap compared to collecting cars. Vastly expensive if your hobby is reading books. But the point remains - it's easy to budget $100 or so a month for magic putchases.

  10. #210
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    Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard

    My brother is a reader and spends around $100-$200 a month on recreational books. If you buy books hardcover, or read really fast, then you're spending that much if that's what takes up most of your time.

    There aren't very many cheap hobbies. Sports like Golf will run you up to a thousand a month. Pottery costs a few hundred a month. Painting is more than that. Buying a Piano costs a lot more than buying up a playset of every card. Computer games probably cost $200 a month if you buy a game or two a month, plus the cost of an updated gaming rig and all the accessories.

    Even the difference between a good car and that car-you've-always-wanted is like four complete sets of every set. If you play Magic enough that you consider it to be "your hobby" then you're going to save yourself a ton of money over doing another activity. The problem is that Magic generally isn't that time-consuming and you'll end up paying a few hundred for Magic on top of everything else.


    Unless you're poor as fuck, though, you can afford to buy the cards. In fact, the real cost of Magic is probably the travel expense if you travel to the big tournaments. Compared to like buying a deck that you can easily resell at least in part, you'll never get the travel expense back. So even a $300 trip probably cost more effectively than that $1100 deck.

  11. #211

    Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard

    Quote Originally Posted by IsThisACatInAHat? View Post
    But in one year, Standard: The Format will be 0% format-legal and almost entirely useless, with some exceptions for decks that can be ported into Extended like Affinity.
    Not necessarily. Let's look at the major money cards from that standard T8:

    the M10 duals
    zendikar fetchlands

    Bloodghast
    Broodmate Dragon
    Path to Exile
    Great Sable Stag
    Day of Judgment
    Master of the Wild Hunt
    Jace Beleren
    Sorin Markov
    Garruk Wildspeaker
    Ajani Vengeant
    Vampire Nocturnus
    Maelstrom Pulse
    Elspeth, Knight-Errant
    Baneslayer Angel



    These can be broken down into categories.



    //Stuff that will likely be reprinted for future Standard formats
    the M10 duals
    Day of Judgment

    These cards will likely be standard-legal for years and years to come. They are a very safe investment.


    //Stuff that will retain value for use in extended or legacy
    zendikar fetches
    Bloodghast
    Path to Exile
    Maelstrom Pulse

    I can't see these cards devaluing much, at least not until they rotate out of Extended in what, five or six years? These are pretty damn safe. Bloodghast is the most likely to see a significant drop when it leaves standard, but chances are very high that BG is a creature that will find more and more homes in larger formats.


    //BSA
    Baneslayer Angel

    Baneslayer is the elephant in the room, and the 800-lb gorilla of buying into standard. The $200 playset of her is about 20% of the entire $1000 cost of buying the cards to make any of the T8 decks referenced. Her price will certainly drop - if she is not reprinted in M11, demand will drop, and if she is, supply will increase. Either way, BSA is definitely the major point in favor of your argument.


    //Walkers and Nocturnus
    Jace Beleren
    Sorin Markov
    Garruk Wildspeaker
    Ajani Vengeant
    Vampire Nocturnus
    Elspeth, Knight-Errant

    Any of these cards could fail to be good outside of standard, and none of them are shoo-ins to be reprinted in future base sets- but they all have significant casual appeal, which may keep their prices high. Walkers are a pretty big unknown, since none have ever rotated out of Standard before (the Lorwyn walkers were reprinted in M10), so their fates are the most open to interpretation; there are good reasons to believe they will retain value, and good reasons to believe they won't. I wouldn't blame anyone who wanted to lump these in with the cards in the next category.

    Nocturnus may be the card here most likely to be reprinted since Wotc might get bored of having the Lorwyn walkers around for a fourth year, but its value is dependent on Wotc committing to making vampires after Zendikar block.


    //The rest
    Broodmate Dragon
    Great Sable Stag
    Master of the Wild Hunt

    These are the cards that are unlikely to see play outside of Standard, have no real casual appeal, and aren't particularly likely to be reprinted (although anything from M10 has to be on the table for M11). This category is where a lot of value could be lost. The M10 cards' values are also pretty dependent on the Standard metagame; GSS cratered when Faeries rotated, from $14ish to $6ish.



    While it's true that many legacy cards such as duals and FoW are the best stores of value in Magic outside of P9, a good chunk of the major cards in Standard will retain a good chunk of their value for some time. That's pretty far from being "entirely useless".
    Quote Originally Posted by Bardo View Post
    Matt, basically everything you said turned out to be true.
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  12. #212
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    Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard

    To be fair, I think I spent more on cards overall than on my Shelby GT 500. Kind of sad really.

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    Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard

    Last week I bought 5 loyal Retainers for 40 dollars each from an online dealer. Today I got an e-mail saying that the price was wrong. They refunded my money and RAISED the price of each retainer by 119 dollars. I will be interested if we can resolve this issue or if they will continue to politely say "fuck off" and they go about their daily business of poor business ethics and backing out of orders.

  14. #214
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    Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard

    Quote Originally Posted by conboy31 View Post
    Last week I bought 5 loyal Retainers for 40 dollars each from an online dealer. Today I got an e-mail saying that the price was wrong. They refunded my money and RAISED the price of each retainer by 119 dollars. I will be interested if we can resolve this issue or if they will continue to politely say "fuck off" and they go about their daily business of poor business ethics and backing out of orders.
    And now for the obvious question: which store?
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  15. #215
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    Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard

    Funny I paid about $0.20 for a Loyal Retainers on MTGO. It's stupid sick how easy it is to recur Iona with it using Survival.

    Point of the story: MTGO is now cheaper to get into Legacy than paper.

  16. #216
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    Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard

    @Matt: Obviously the value doesn't go to zero, but the value drops off considerably and unpredictably. You could be sitting on a $1000 dollar deck that drops to $800 when a new set comes out. Even if the deck didn't rotate out or anything, just new decks come up and make it more pricey.

    If you're not very up on the trading, your deck can also lose a lot of value as other decks are simply designed. The Standard metagame shifts a lot faster, so a deck that was good two months ago might have updated tech or new matchups that significantly affect how the deck looks and what type of cards you'll need.

    And then with rotations, all cards lose a chunk of value. Even just 10-15% on your collection can be very significant when you consider that Force of Will and other Legacy-legals are increasing in value.



    But anyway, the real problem (the way I see it) is that Standard cards lose a ton of TRADING value at the local level. Even if the price doesn't drop off on eBay, it's very hard to swap up cards that nobody is looking for at the local level. And it seems unless you're a power seller, nobody gives a fuck to buy from you.


    Although lately, with the power ramp on creatures, if any legacy-legal has the card type, "Creature" it's probably going to lose value in the next year or two, so the argument that "Legacy cards are forever" is much less true today than it was a few years ago. You're still safe in investing in draw or countermagia or removal, but Wizards has recently been pushing the envelope. Artifact and Enchantment removal has been printed in green (and better removal is now available for green than white). The creatures are almost universally better than they were.

    Still, if you have the Legacy staples, Legacy is definitely the cheapest format to stay in. Or if you're too lazy to trade regularly or smell bad and can't get people to trade you, then Legacy is the place to be.

  17. #217

    Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard

    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    And now for the obvious question: which store?
    MTG FANATIC

    I have the exact same problem.
    I ordered 4 Loyal Retainers @ $40 each 2 weeks ago. Last week I emailed MtG fanatic about my order and this is the answer I got (on January, the 20th):

    'The order will be shipping tomorrow. Yesterday was a holiday so mail could
    not be shipped, and our employess had the day off which postponed shipment
    by 1 day.

    Chris Tremblay
    President
    MtgFanatic.com, Inc.'

    Today, on Januray, the 27th, ONE WEEK LATER, I received this:
    Hello,

    This is Chris Tremblay from MtgFanatic.com. I am writing to you regarding your order for Loyal Retainers. This item was not listed at the correct price, so I am unable to ship these items at this time. I have given you store credit for these items. If you would instead prefer a refund to your paypal account, please respond with your paypal email address. I apologize for the inconvenience.

    Chris Tremblay
    President
    MtgFanatic.com, Inc.

    SO DON'T BUY FROM MTG FANATIC!!!!
    They are not honest, they don't play by the rules and just want to sell you cards if they're screwing you.

  18. #218

    Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard

    MTG Fanatic is one of the more crappy stores I've seen around. Besides the crappy customer service, and rumors that they swapped NM cards for EX ones (then returning you) when you try to sell them cards, they didnt even ship out my order for 1 month. No replies nothing. After many emails later, they just said to me they didnt want to do business with me. Their president is a total ass.

    Regarding the rumors I was hearing. I once sent a package of NM/NM+/pack fresh cards to them (I double checked all my cards properly and my grading is fairly strict). The cards that they rejected for not being NM, came back to me with heavy whitening on the edges. The cards rejected were secured very well, no way they could ever been damaged in the mail. Some of the cards I sent them were just opened from boosters. I doubt that was a coincidence that all the cards rejected, went to them NMish and came back damaged.

    Tons of f'ed up stores around anyway.

  19. #219
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    Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea R Hill View Post
    MTG FANATIC

    I have the exact same problem.
    I ordered 4 Loyal Retainers @ $40 each 2 weeks ago. Last week I emailed MtG fanatic about my order and this is the answer I got (on January, the 20th):




    Today, on Januray, the 27th, ONE WEEK LATER, I received this:



    SO DON'T BUY FROM MTG FANATIC!!!!
    They are not honest, they don't play by the rules and just want to sell you cards if they're screwing you.
    That's weird. I've never had a problem with MTG Fanatic.

    Edit: LOL, they have 17 of them for $159.99. I doubt they'll sell them for that when they're consistently ending on eBay for around $100.00.

    Edit Edit: I hope they shot themselves in the foot with this one and the prices DO crash. This sort of practice makes me sick.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin View Post
    This isn't the game of holding hands and friendship. This is a competitive game, and if we all sit around singing kumbaya and sucking each other's dicks, then a lot of people are going to go to a tournament and lose because their pile of 61 jank isn't the special unique snowflake that everyone on the Source says it was.

  20. #220
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    Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea R Hill View Post
    MTG FANATIC

    I have the exact same problem.
    I ordered 4 Loyal Retainers @ $40 each 2 weeks ago. Last week I emailed MtG fanatic about my order and this is the answer I got (on January, the 20th):




    Today, on Januray, the 27th, ONE WEEK LATER, I received this:



    SO DON'T BUY FROM MTG FANATIC!!!!
    They are not honest, they don't play by the rules and just want to sell you cards if they're screwing you.
    Exactly. I bought them on January 17th!!! I got am email last night saying the price was wrong. What the hell were they doing for 9 days? Obviously not shipping my order.

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