They've issued a statement to the effect of "our price points are our own business; how everyone else chooses to set their own has nothing to do with us."Originally Posted by phonics
I get it, but the de facto lack of responsibility is clashing with the reality; that people are handling this like it's a zero-sum game, and claiming that they are 'losing money' if they don't fall in line with raising price points.
sent from phone, don't be a dick
This thread went full retard. SCG supports legacy by running tournies. Do they do it for free? No. But if you would like to run a 500 person event for charity, I will attend that as well. SCG, outside of the few GPs and other few random larger tournies, are the only ones that really help legacy along by running large scale tournies and are willing to keep it going year after year. I sure as hell have been trying for the past year and a half to convince the LGS owner to run a large legacy tournament, but to no avail so far. So for now, I will continue giving money to the people who support the format I play, SCG for bring me 3-4 5Ks that I get to attend a year, and my LGS that runs a weekly legacy. You, living across the sea, I assume, don't get the chance to attend SCG events. I understand. But in the states, if it werent for them, legacy would be fucked.
Just as a reminder, there's a fine line between a contentious but civil discussion and just being dicks to each other. If you disagree with a user's opinions, deal with the opinions, don't attack the user.
This is basically what I mean. Why does SCG's prices influence the market so much? Sure they are a big player in the market, and probably the most well known retailer, but there are many alternatives. I don't know if convenience justifies the price differentials that occur when they change prices. Is it because traditional ways of determining value like ebay do not have enough volume to accurately price cards?
I believe it does not help the market that SCG can afford to BUY cards at a highly set price, then sell for even higher. They engulf the market and people do think: "Why would i sell my Wasteland for 50$ when I can sell it to SCG for 60$?"
Having enough money and market share helps you manipulate it. Also, having apparent ties with WOTC doesn't hurt it either.
As said earlier, it was a matter of time for years now to have someone drive the prices so high by doing the things market responds best to - buying and selling stock.
PTT (Formerly of MTT) - We make Champion
Again, I don't see how SCG, a market leader, having the financial muscle to do whatever it pleases is any different than other industry leaders (Wal-Mart, Apple, etc) flexing their muscle and proclaiming, "this product now is worth $x.xx, deal with it."
There actually is a difference. If Apple decides their iPod is worth 1000 dollars, there is a possibility of an alternative that can be superior/cheaper like a Zune for example. There is no alternative to underground sea in magic cards. Yes there are shock lands, but that isn't comparable and is a strictly worse card whereas in the MP3 industry, the Zune could theoretically be created to be a superior product.
My sentiments exactly.
SCG has done more than any other company (including WOTC) to make the competitive Legacy scene as prosperous as it is. Of course, I don't think they do this entirely out of the goodness of their hearts, but I do believe they like the format, as evidenced by their willingness to use the Legacy Opens as a loss leader when the format was first taking off. As long as their interests as a business align with mine as a Legacy player, I will give them my business at the preference of other stores that do not (and I will likewise give my local stores that hold Legacy events my business over ones that do not).
I am not delusional enough to think they would support Legacy if it were bleeding their bottom line, but I do not understand this cynicism that they are merely fattening up Legacy before the slaughter. Yes, they aggressively promoted their Modern GP at Richmond, but they've aggressively promoted every single one of their events, including their Opens, Invitationals, IQs, and Limited format GPs, and I expect they will similarly promote the Legacy GP they will be holding at Edison later this year. Yes, Legacy staples have shot up in price, but that is in response to drastically increased demand. If SCG were to move away from Legacy because the cost of staples exceeded the point that most of us consider reasonable, they would have done so several years ago. However, attendance figures at Legacy Opens continues to increase even as the cost of entry spikes.
The tournaments SCG runs are widely considered to be the most awesome events in Magic. SCG has had countless opportunities recently to move away from Legacy Opens, but instead, they doubled up on their commitment to Legacy by changing every single Sunday Open this year to Legacy format. Until the day they abandon Legacy, if that day ever comes, I will give them my business and the benefit of doubt with respect to their future plans.
There have been legions of competitors that market leaders have had to deal with... the vast majority of them have either remained a minor player in the industry or sputtered out and died.
Also, if the iPod was $1,000, the competitor would have to price their product so aggressively while maintaining similar quality, that I don't understand how they'd be able to survive.
Because they have the best access to supply and demand trends, which allows them to set prices accordingly to what the market will bear.
That question is like "Why do lines set by Vegas influence the outcome of professional sports so much?" There might be rare instances of corruption in sports in which players are paid to shave points or refs are bought to influence the line, but that question is putting the horse before the cart: the Spurs would be huge favorites against the Sixers because Vegas recognizes the former to be the better team and sets the line appropriately, and more often than not, the Spurs would win by a comfortable margin.
Again, why is it a bad thing that they make money off of the tournaments? They profit from it and we benefit from having a growing Legacy scene. Seems win-win to me.
40 tournaments being a small number? Name any organizer that does even a quarter of that number at the size that SCG gets.
The tournaments are their way to sway the public opinion towards the way they want it.
As stated before I see them as a type of charity donations by corporations - a type of social entrepreneurship that enables them to create larger profit margins.
They create by investing a climate where cards are needed and they give the solution right away, the cards itself.
I wanted to say that they are neither good thing nor a bad thing, just a mean to an end to create more profit.
I can't agree more with lordofthepit. They have best acces to supply and demand lines
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PTT (Formerly of MTT) - We make Champion
This... What's up with all the SCG shills and apologists? If there is a Monsanto of the card market it's SCG.
Whenever you feel like trumping SCG by holding a regularly scheduled tournament circuit and selling Legacy staples for well under market value, I will support your tournaments and your business.
Also, terrific analogy comparing SCG to Monsanto. Making money because you run an exciting tournament circuit that gives players the opportunity to use their playing cards more frequently is totally analogous to predatory practices that choke off the food supply by destroying alternative crops, backed by a strong inclination for litigation.
While not as comprehensive in terms of finding foreign cards or misprints, TCGPlayer works well as an aggregator and a way to find cards somewhat cheap, my 2nd go to place after my LGS. While I am not entirely privy to the ethics of their business and how much/if they also collude with stores they work with I'm open to hearing anything.
Read earlier in the thread with the closed door meeting about reprints, also don't forget them cornering the fetch market. They are best friends with Wizards. I'm not saying it has the same degree of destruction to our everyday lives and well being, but manipulating the market and have what is essentially closed door litigation with the proprietor of the game are not becoming of a good business and are analogous to your examples presented. Monsanto has essentially made it so only yellow corn is grown in the U.S. by having people in the FDA, I don't see what's wrong with my analogy. I can also argue that since "Monsanto feeds the world!" (obviously propaganda/bullshit) "Starcity runs the entire tourney scene" (also obvious propaganda/bullshit, the game can exist fine without them). Ad absurdum that's your argument. Whenever you have a monopoly that fulfills a need of course you are the ones providing the service!
Edit:
Nothing is an either/or proposition. The tournaments are a fine thing but it is fine and right to question the ethics of this business like any other.
Last edited by Bertrand Hustle; 04-04-2014 at 04:43 PM. Reason: Clarified at the end
Apologist implies that SCG has done something wrong. Those of us who buy cards from them and appreciate the SCG Open series don't believe that there's anything to apologize for.
To quote a wonderful program, "What's a Zune?"
I understand why there are both positive and negative feelings aimed toward Star City. My only point I wish to make in this discussion at this time is that people are willing to pay the price that Star City sets for their singles and they continue to lead the market in making large scale tournaments successful and available. Care to guess when the next decent sized tournament is in Michigan? If you guessed a Star City event, you guessed right. The one after will also likely be one of their events.
More importantly, "What's a Zune?"
Whenever I see a kid in a wheelchair it makes me a little sad. Because I always think, "Gee, they could have used those same wheels to make a bike for a regular kid. What a waste."
This.
To return to my previous post, I buy almost exclusively from SCG at this point because the things I usually buy are fairly esoteric and random, and they are far more likely to have the item(s) in stock. I will occasionally buy from another place if SCG does not have the item, or there is a truly significant price difference. I trust SCG's customer service (which is impeccable) more than anyone else's, and I am willing to pay an occasional premium for an item because of that. I don't buy duals, etc. from them because I can find them significantly cheaper most of the time, but random foils for EDH are my bread and butter; the combination of selection and customer service gives me confidence to choose to buy from them.
Those examples arent exactly comparable. In the case of Apple, they sell their own unique product that no one else makes, sure there are different computers or different music players, but no other company makes apple computers as well, whereas in the magic market everyone is selling the same thing, it is more like a commodity than a product. Wal-Mart on the other hand uses their position to make prices lower than what competitors can afford to do so, which is the opposite of what happens in the mtg card market. I can't think of any other kind of market that operates in this way.
Is it wrong for me to assume that SCG doesn't have the ability to acquire enough of a card to the point that they can dictate the price? I felt that print runs were so large that getting to that point was not possible. Market prices are generally dictated by what people are willing to pay, but SCG increases that price and people are willing to pay that much more. This doesn't have anything to do with SCG specifically, I feel like it is probably something like the market being much more stagnant than it is believed to be and the prices SCG put up just 'correct' the market. It just seems so unintuitive for the market to correct itself in this way.
Pretty much this.
If anyone can't afford the expensive duals, I'd say him to not buy them (and maybe even sell those that he has like I did). It's not like we're discussing famine and sealed tithe banks, we're discussing unavailability of carboard crack.
I think that instead of crying about evil, evil SCG, some people should start their own business and their own tournament circuit to show us how it should be done in a fair way. Alas, the laws of economics are deafdumbblind, and if you won't be pricing your stuff appropriatelly, you'll end with a) nothing sold or b) nothing to sell. It's players fault that they buy pieces of paper for their weight in gold, it's WotC's fault that they implemented and then further cemented their bullshit reprint policy, it's WotC's and SCG's fault that they are interlinked and do shady stuff like sharing "godbooks" knowledge, or w/e the else, but this has nothing to do with what several users bitch about - the so-called "overpriced" cards. Again, as long as people buy them, they are not overpriced, the price is set right.
A small and last note, as this topic is annoying. There was a shop in our city called Exil that used an anti-economics approach. It was more of a club for the few than a real shop, they had prices set more close to the "street prices", etc. You may do the same and build the same club/lgs using the same approach, but there are some troubles. First, you still balance on the edge, because you can't react to price swings. Your cards are easily bought out, unless you make artificial limits for sales. But then you're limiting your own customers, which is esp. bad when there are other shops that don't care. This of course limits your community's growth, which in fact might not interest you (as your only concern are those fifty ppl that visit your club), yet there's a trouble that for every one that dies, quits or is abducted by aliens, no other player may come. You'll be a prey of every shark who'll buys out your stuff, you'll have troubles to purchase anything, as your low selling prices mean low repurchase prices, thus ppl won't sell to your shop, etc., etc., all those annoying economic stuff that socialists are blind about.
Know what? That Exil shop went bankrupt.
tl,dr: SCG sells for what ppl buy for, something something supply demand
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