Last chance on duals... holy shit how does anyone buy in now. Alpha counterspell is going to break 1k at some point regardless of a ton of reprints. There must be a ceiling that triggers a response to the RL or rip legacy. FYI, if you're still crazy enough (or rich) to buy in then start with RL cards.
So Dreadnought spiked a bit and uh yeah Alpha Mask is up to a cool $2,775...now that's simply the spike and not the place it will settle, but it's rather surprising to me as one of legacy's only dedicated Dreadnought theorycrafters. https://www.mtggoldfish.com/price/Li...ary+Mask#paper
Nothing from Dominaria, or any other recent set, can really take advantage of its wording...and it's beyond useless in any pre-Mirage format. Stupid random buyout, and the people behind it could have had future knowledge of which cards will be released and still not know what they're looking for. Quite astonishing, truly.
I mean I have plenty of Dreadnought lists, but the point I'm making is that there are a whopping 3 mtgtop8 legacy appearances since 2014. There are also three appearances in Vintage in that time span, all being Survival builds. There are a few more hits in Duel Commander where Dreadnought is *only* being used as a crappy, one-time way to almost become 4x Dark Rits in combination with Selvala, Heart of the Wilds. Illusionary Mask sees about an average of 1 appearance per two Dreadnoughts, a number that is above normal due to legacy appearances in stompy shells. The number of Masks in Duel Commander is zero.
I can't imagine that Old School is using the Mask, because about the best you could do is ignore an ETB tapped or upkeep cost phrase. That shouldn't really be good enough in the Disenchant format chock full of Moxen and other, better stand-alone artifacts. Looking at Battlebond so far, the only card that looks remotely useful would basically require the use of Sundial and being the active player. On Eternal Central I see that they have rules posted for Old School '96 - and that's about the only reason I can find for why Mask/Dreadnought would see a spike.
Patrick Sullivan's Hot Take on the Reserve List
I have to say I agree with parts of his stance, but I think there is a threshold. I wouldn't say it is a dollar amount, but would be the place where the prices actively diminish the player base. So, prices are fine, as long as the format is gaining players at least as fast as losing them.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
I don't see how duals being 5 bucks (just as example) would drive players away given that everyone could afford enjoying the format and play with many different decks without having to dump 5 grand and more for a decent cardpool. Having to move large bills around every time you want a new/different deck, is stifling innovation as well.
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I'm someone with likely too much cardboard, and a decent job, and I don't want to pay. Not can't, just shouldn't and don't want to.
I'd much rather reprint all the random expensive stuff so OG versions have collectable value still, but everyone can play. I'd love 50 man Legacy weeklies. I stand to lose, and guess what? Don't care, would rather play Magic.
I can build just about anything in Legacy, Vintage and most Old School, minus Eldrazi's and Shops. I would LOVE the RL to be abolished so there can be more players.
I lend out a lot of Legacy decks, to people who don't have the cards, but i'd be happier if they all did have the cards.
I'd don't care about value if the cost is hurting the player base.
I love P.Sully to bits but i think he's a little off base with this. IF Legacy was like Old School or Vintage and it was a luxury thing to play and own with no competitive offerings, then fine his argument makes sense. But with GP's and a PT having legacy, it's a very real thing to not be able to play for people who are trying to grind/"live the dream".
I played GP Toronto a few weeks ago, and more than a few teams we encountered were on sub optimal budget decks for their legacy seat. Realistically they were lighting their entry fees on fire. That's really lame in my opinion and seems like a big feel bad. For a format like Trios it would be nice if the deck decisions were really up to the players preferences and not just their wallets for legacy.
All,
I'm one of the few that is glad the reserved list exists. I agree with the points made in the video, I suggest others watch it. I believe the reserved list has a place, and the long term viability of the game benefits greatly due to the reserved list. I feel the game needs to have collector and player value, the current sets only have player value.
If anything, I fear that the value of the currently sold product is pretty much zero. I've felt that way for the better part of a decade. 20 years from now, how many singles sold in standard packs today are going to be valuable (say, 50 dollars, adjusted for inflation, for non-foil). My best guess is zero. If cards are valuable, they'll get reprinted to the point where they are "affordable-ish", which is likely less than my random 50 dollars, adjusted for inflation, line in the sand.
I'm aware that my opinion is not shared by the masses, and I'm alright with that. I bought in and it worked for me.
It's a game first. I'd argue it's a game second, too. And third and so on. Maybe eventually somewhere down it can be a commodity. An "investment" if you want.
But it will be those things after it's a game. The game is popular with kids today because it's a game. The older formats aren't popular. Because they're less of a game, and more of a stock market on training wheels.
The arguments are so old I'd just as rather copy/paste my rants from the thread previous. RIP nedleeds.
The sad thing for me is that Eternal has become more of a Collectors/Investors Game than one for actual players.
I am at the point of being straight unwilling to shell out a grand for merely updating my paper manaacceleration (not even talking about pimp stuff)
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The point Sullivan is trying to make isn’t really a point to be made. He’s actually just describing the exact problem that we have with the Reserved List. It limits the playability of the Legacy format to proxy tournaments and similar. Yes, we actually do want to have Legacy be a viable format that everyone can enjoy with legal card-stock. Saying that everything is fine and that it’s only a small sliver of the cake that’s actually not for eating (sale) is – for once, in Sullivan’s case – stupid. And anyone who still believes that the Reserved List is actually keeping cards valuable should update themselves on current events. All it does is enable buyouts and fakes. And regarding value, have you seen the price of Tarmogoyf, a card that is seeing less and less play and still is priced where it was when it was reprinted the first time? Or the price of Leovold, Emissary of Trest? Or the price of Liliana, the Last Hope?
If I will run a shop or be part of a mass shop like he is. I would like the RL to stay -> just raise the price every week on your U-Sea by 10$ and count your profits.
But as a player with a family and a proper job. It is sad to only play every week with one guy and every 2 months with 15 people. I would like to see some fresh meat, new brews, stupid decks, etc...
The RL has to go to keep the format alive or it will become a relic of the past like vintage.
Two maybe three years and the next step will be a a new team trio Modern/Standard/ Pauper or New format.
Probably new format to sell more booster boxes.
Patrick is just protecting his own business.
The sets only having "player value" has been true starting with Mercadian Masques, which they stopped including cards on the Reserved List. Somehow, despite absolutely no guarantee their cards would hold value, people kept playing the game and buying product.
And this is a bad thing because...?If anything, I fear that the value of the currently sold product is pretty much zero. I've felt that way for the better part of a decade. 20 years from now, how many singles sold in standard packs today are going to be valuable (say, 50 dollars, adjusted for inflation, for non-foil). My best guess is zero. If cards are valuable, they'll get reprinted to the point where they are "affordable-ish", which is likely less than my random 50 dollars, adjusted for inflation, line in the sand.
Well, it would help if the arguments in favor of the Reserved List were actually good.I'm aware that my opinion is not shared by the masses, and I'm alright with that.
I don't think that's the case. The Reserved List isn't all that good for stores, because it limits the amount of product, meaning you don't have as much to sell, and that in turn lowers the amount of profits you can get from selling them. Not only that, the high prices hurt demand, meaning it's harder to move product.
This isn't the first time Patrick has gone off on a half-baked rant, actually. I remember him earlier (at least I think it was him) decided to go on a big rant about how Deathrite Shaman shouldn't be banned in Legacy. His points in the matter really weren't that good and were mostly attacking strawmen, but the peculiar thing was how completely off topic the subject was because they were, at the time, doing match coverage for a Modern event. Although it was funny to see how uninterested Cedric obviously was in the topic while Patrick was going off.
On the subject of team trio, I do wonder what they'll replace Legacy with, because I expect they more or less will have to at this rate. Pauper is a possibility, but I wonder if they'll have the third guy do Sealed?
Yep same here.
I also think we've had enough evidence with reprinting big money cards that the original printings will always hold a premium, but only as long as the game itself is popular and played heavily enough for those cards to be worth it for collectors. So, please for fucks sake bring on the reprints of the tens of thousands of dollars of reserved list cards that I own so we can keep playing the game.
Cockatrice: Bosque
What this whole discussion about the RL and skyrocketing prices suffers from is a lack of understanding that prices of MTG cards do not reflect a relationship between supply and demand in the first place. The prices, especially of cards considered to be staples, are mainly collectively accepted or agreed on ascriptions of values. People will always create reasons to rationalize why card XYZ has a certain value and the buzzword "Reserve List" is one of them which is seemingly apt to legitimate particularly high and ridiculous prices. Prices of MTG cards are completely malleable and mostly represent arbitrarily set numbers by speculators who have adopted the weirdest tools to push prices (see Meditate and fake tournament results). The RL is not the primary root of the precarious situation the format is in nowadays, just look at Goyf or Liliana for instance. The first and foremost reason that prices are the way they are is the mere fact that people are consent or convinced that single cards from a children's card game can or should be worth several hundreds. As long as this state is considered normal or natural by the majority of the involved people things won't change.
I like the reserve list, it brings some mysterious and hard to get element for this game. If you want be compatible and want all your stuff reprintable just play modern.
I usually enjoy Patricks rants, but what a load of baloney that was. His main arguments are 1) that it is OK that people can't play Legacy because they can still play "Magic" so there is really no problem, and 2) people who complain about the RL are mostly people who can't afford the cards are their current price. Both are completely wrong, and he just repeats them over and over. Much respect lost.
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